How much do Top 20 songwriters earn?

[Liquid360]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

Of course, the trick is to write hit songs.

-R

Any really talented artist can write a "hit" song. I just fear the industry is so out-of-whack right now that you'll never get paid for it. I'm not talking about the Major labels, they are so commercially driven now it's like a machine... namely Google.

It's a double edged sword. Everyone can hear you, but no one wants to pay you. As long as piracy exists on the level it does today, the independent labels are out of the picture.

[Amber]

Originally Posted by tswp1

Sorry, I didn't mean to come off defensive or anything, there's just a lot of Luke forums out here in the world of forums and I had to get my 2 cents in : )

Yes, there are def things that make a pop song a pop song, no denying that! But I guess my point is every song has it's own process and techniques and such (no templates, lol).

I worked a little bit on the KC stuff, not much though (busy doing other exciting things!). Josh and Ollie are masterminds; Ollie can put a smash together in an hour. Check out his new project "Oliver" it's him and DJ U Tern, all analog, amazingness. Def done the right way.

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of the electronic stuff Oliver do, it sounds amazing from a sonic point of few and i love that 80s sound but it's not something I'd listen to much. You CAN tell it's analog as well.

I won't start a new thread about the KC album but if you do know from what you did work on, what drums were used on the songs done at Pulse? A mix of real and samples? Almost sounds a bit like the Slate drums.

Also, what guitar/amp/ampsims were on there? I love the riff at the start of 'You Can't Win'. Alone has some great stuff in there too. Sounds like a Def Leppard song or something.

[tswp1]

Originally Posted by Amber

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of the electronic stuff Oliver do, it sounds amazing from a sonic point of few and i love that 80s sound but it's not something I'd listen to much. You CAN tell it's analog as well.

I won't start a new thread about the KC album but if you do know from what you did work on, what drums were used on the songs done at Pulse? A mix of real and samples? Almost sounds a bit like the Slate drums.

Also, what guitar/amp/ampsims were on there? I love the riff at the start of 'You Can't Win'. Alone has some great stuff in there too. Sounds like a Def Leppard song or something.

Can't help ya with the drums, again I don't really like to talk about other people's swag, if u know what I mean. The guitars are all real, as in a guitar plugged into an amp and recorded with close + room mics, we have a beautiful live room! couldn't tell ya what amp though... we have so many and it was a while back... prob a Gibby through a Marshall or one of the other boutique Marshall-y things. It's all a performance thing, drums, guitar, swooshes, etc. doesn't really matter what it all is as long as it all works together... if u heard a daft punk kick sample out of context you'd be like "ick... next". at least I prob would, haha.

[Amber]

Originally Posted by tswp1

Can't help ya with the drums, again I don't really like to talk about other people's swag, if u know what I mean. The guitars are all real, as in a guitar plugged into an amp and recorded with close + room mics, we have a beautiful live room! couldn't tell ya what amp though... we have so many and it was a while back... prob a Gibby through a Marshall or one of the other boutique Marshall-y things. It's all a performance thing, drums, guitar, swooshes, etc. doesn't really matter what it all is as long as it all works together... if u heard a daft punk kick sample out of context you'd be like "ick... next". at least I prob would, haha.

I get you, was worth a try asking! Pulse used to have a submission link on the page but it's gone now. Do they still take submissions to sign producers/writers through the email? A link to soundcloud or something?

[Dr. Fleischman]

Originally Posted by Amber

Do they still take submissions to sign producers/writers through the email? A link to soundcloud or something?

I droped them a track on their private soundclound account but they haven't listened to it for 2 months or so - counter knows everything .

I wouldn't expect anybody to be signed throug the email.

[tswp1]

Originally Posted by Amber

I get you, was worth a try asking! Pulse used to have a submission link on the page but it's gone now. Do they still take submissions to sign producers/writers through the email? A link to soundcloud or something?

I think there is an email link on our site for general inquiries where you could send your tunes. we're in the process of creating a new site that will be linked to all the main media resources as well as checked and updated on a regular basis. submit away! : )

[tswp1]

Originally Posted by Dr. Fleischman

I droped them a track on their private soundclound account but they haven't listened to it for 2 months or so - counter knows everything .

I wouldn't expect anybody to be signed throug the email.

crazier things have happened!

[Amber]

I submitted a Pink/Clarkson type track about 8 months ago. Where it's private and can only be heard by the user (Pulse in this case) and it even tells you if they listened to the whole thing and someone using that Pulse account did.

I'll be submitting some stuff soon. But only my best as not to waste time! One of the reasons I'm looking for either a pub deal or management is to help me get my O1 visa to move from London to LA and to be honest I don't know where else I could fit in with my style. So if you guys find a British accent entertaining maybe that's a foot in the door.

Again, TSWP1, thanks for posting about Pulse etc and keep up the great work!

[MichaelEM]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

The question is so irrelevant to your situation it's laughable.

If anything, you should be asking yourself what someone who gets the occasional album cut makes - since there's more doing that than making millions.

PS I engineered for a Claude Kelly writing session the other day - he's a nice guy too...

Yall are all annoying. A human asking a question they are curious about, that never happens! Go to the moan zone. Dr.Luke writes, produces, and tailors his music in a spectacular way that most people can not do, and therefor he makes a lot of money from it. If you don't know exactly how much (which is what the questions was) then just be quiet. People wonder how much other people make, it's written as lead articels in magazines, there are T.V shows about it.

[MichaelEM]

Originally Posted by yosemitesam

Not to mention, they sold a billion records.

Sent from my DROIDX using Gearslutz.com App

1 billion? I have seen 600 million. There are 4 of them to split up the money, Max Martin is one guy and he did most of the music on Britney's first few albums and the backstreet boys albums. Britney has sold 100mil records, backstreet boys have sold 120. Katy Perry, Avril Lavigne, Pink, N'Sync, Robyn, even Bon Joni and Def Leppard. I don't doubt the 250 million at all, he is banking big time.

[voicegenius]

this is the greatest thread ever...

[Etch-A-Sketch]

just to put in perspective for Amber...

While it's not Dr Luke, I know Scott Storch made $80mil in his first two years with #1 hits on the charts. I remember him saying that in an interview somewhere. For him it wasn't even about trying to write a "hit". He was just trying to get as many songs on each album as possible so he could make the money off the mechanicals. Albums from Beyonce were selling 16mil copies. He'd have 5 or 6 songs on the album. That's about $7 to $10mil in mechanical royalties alone!!!

Bigger name writers/producers usually get upwards of $50,000 to $100,000 per song upfront. Dr Luke probably gets around $200,000 per song upfront because of the success of his songs. And he probably does at least three songs on an album (so $600,000 total). He started his own publishing companies (he has two of them) and has some of the artists he works with signed to pub deals (Katy Perry, Ke$ha, Benny Bianco, etc). So if he cowrites a song with Katy Perry he is probably getting 75% of the royalties while katy gets 25% (disclaimer: I do not know the actually percentages. This is just a standard thing that happens in a publishing deal). Then you add the mechanical licenses in, producer points, etc.

Dr luke is probably making between $10 and $30mil a year right now (maybe more). It won't last forever. As his "style" of songwriting loses favor his income will shrink. But because the songs he writes are huge hits, he'll still be earning off them (although not $20mil a year) for decades to come.

[hallier]

I get the sense that the royalties from radio airplay and live performance way exceeds the mechanical royalties from sales (which do seem to be declining due to illegal downloading).

I'd be interested to know how much songwriters earn when their song is played on the radio, or played live by a big name performer.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by hallier

I get the sense that the royalties from radio airplay and live performance way exceeds the mechanical royalties from sales (which do seem to be declining due to illegal downloading).

I'd be interested to know how much songwriters earn when their song is played on the radio, or played live by a big name performer.

Call ascap or bmi to find out. They can tell you how much. But as you can see, it will vary from area to area, radio station to radio station, etc. So it's hard to exactly calculate. If Kiss FM in the midwest plays your song but KissFM in NYC and LA don't... well you'll be making a lot less money than if the opposite were the case. See the criteria for payment with ASCAP and BMI below.

ASCAP - ASCAP Payment System: Royalty Calculation
U.S. Radio Royalties (Basic) | Royalties | BMI.com

[Destine]

Originally Posted by hallier

I get the sense that the royalties from radio airplay and live performance way exceeds the mechanical royalties from sales (which do seem to be declining due to illegal downloading).

I'd be interested to know how much songwriters earn when their song is played on the radio, or played live by a big name performer.

I believe you are correct. There are some really good interviews on the ASCAP website with music publishing execs that state what they are looking for now are songwriters who can write that 'Hit Song' - the song that will be a single and generate performance royalties as they far exceed mechanicals nowadays. If you can write radio hits you stand to make a fortune.

Here are some good articles below.

I read a piece quite recently by Todd Brabec where he stated having a hit song in the US you can quite easily make $700k in radio play alone. Performance income is one area that's growing.


ASCAP - Music & Money: Performing Right Payments

The financial importance of the performing rights area cannot be overemphasized - the fact is, a fortune can be made from a single composition. For example, in just a few years, the #1 song of the year can generate a $2 million writer and publisher payout; a successful TV-series theme song can generate numbers in excess of $1.5 million over a 10-year period; and the score of a top box-office film can generate well over $2 million in performance income during its copyright life. Although most writers never achieve this level of success, it's helpful to know what's possible at the top end.

Making Money From Your Music In Foreign Countries - ArtistshouseMusic

As to individual activity, a major worldwide hit song can generate well over $1,000,000 in foreign radio and television performance monies with a blockbuster feature film generating in excess of $500,000 composer royalties for foreign theatrical (movie theatre) performances alone during the initial year of activity. Putting these high end figures aside, it is important to know that tens of thousands of U.S. writers and publishers receive between $1 and $100,000 in foreign royalties each year for performances of their works on radio and television stations, live performances and website transmissions among many other types of use

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Destine

I read a piece quite recently by Todd Brabec where he stated having a hit song in the US you can quite easily make $700k in radio play alone.

That number is accurate. But it needs to be a "big" hit.

Like biggest song of the year "big". Adele "Rolling in the Deep" big. (that one is probably over a million - wow)

Typical "played on the radio all damn day" songs would be in the 100k to 300k range.

But keep in mind, rarely do these songs have one writer.

[Dr. Fleischman]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

Typical "played on the radio all damn day" songs would be in the 100k to 300k range.

Is it all damn Amercian day or global? We shouldn't forget there's Europe, Australia and huge Asia. I assume Africa (exluding South Africa) doesn't pay royalties.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Dr. Fleischman

Is it all damn Amercian day or global? We shouldn't forget there's Europe, Australia and huge Asia. I assume Africa (exluding South Africa) doesn't pay royalties.

I would assume US. Actually getting PAID your royalties from some foreign regions can be, um, problematical in some cases. And usually slow when something does happen.

The problem of collecting royalties across borders

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

I would assume US. Actually getting PAID your royalties from some foreign regions can be, um, problematical in some cases. And usually slow when something does happen.

The problem of collecting royalties across borders

I don't know about that. I think it depends on your publisher. I see a lot of money from international uses of my music, from Europe, the middle east, australia, japan and south east asia. It's actually more than I see from US uses. I don't have any hit songs though, but I do get radio, TV and film broadcasts abroad.

I think in this regard you could probably talk to 100 people about overseas royalty collection and get 100 different answers. Someone self publishing might have a terrible time collecting while someone signed to EMI publishing might see more from overseas than from the US. It just depends on a lot of factors.

But in regards to the topic of this thread and a Top 20 hit... I would imagine collecting those kind of royalties would be of paramount importance to publishers and sub publishers and would probably be pretty lucrative and quickly dispersed to the writers and publishers.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch

I don't know about that. I think it depends on your publisher. I see a lot of money from international uses of my music, from Europe, the middle east, australia, japan and south east asia. It's actually more than I see from US uses. I don't have any hit songs though, but I do get radio, TV and film broadcasts abroad.

I think in this regard you could probably talk to 100 people about overseas royalty collection and get 100 different answers. Someone self publishing might have a terrible time collecting while someone signed to EMI publishing might see more from overseas than from the US. It just depends on a lot of factors.

But in regards to the topic of this thread and a Top 20 hit... I would imagine collecting those kind of royalties would be of paramount importance to publishers and sub publishers and would probably be pretty lucrative and quickly dispersed to the writers and publishers.

Yeah - note that I said in SOME cases. You publisher is important. It appears that being with a publisher with branches in various places can be advantageous in collecting in countries like Japan (to use an example from the article).

[hallier]

This is a really interesting forum for newbies like me.

I found this on Rolling Stone - How 10 Major Songwriters Make Big Money Pictures | Rolling Stone

I must confess that the numbers seem quite low. It seems like they have only factored in mechanical royalties.

I guess it is reasonably easy to figure out mechanical royalties; however, the royalties from performances on radio etc seem a bit of a mystery.

I wonder how those of you who are songwriters know for sure that you are not being underpaid on performance royalties.

It is interesting that there does not seem to be any documentation recording how much, say, a top rating radio station in a major city like New York or LA or London actually has to pay for playing a song.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by hallier

This is a really interesting forum for newbies like me.

I found this on Rolling Stone - How 10 Major Songwriters Make Big Money Pictures | Rolling Stone

I must confess that the numbers seem quite low. It seems like they have only factored in mechanical royalties.

I guess it is reasonably easy to figure out mechanical royalties; however, the royalties from performances on radio etc seem a bit of a mystery.

I wonder how those of you who are songwriters know for sure that you are not being underpaid on performance royalties.

An interesting and rather astute post.

First, Rolling Stone is not exactly an accurate source on what really goes on in the industry - they're more interested in what makes copy that sells magazines than absolute accuracy. The same can be said of most mass market media when they cover entertainment issues.

Second, a lot of songwriters almost certainly ARE being underpaid. And when you factor in international payments it can get really messy.

Some songwriters have no problems to speak of at all. Others never see a cent who should.

It is interesting that there does not seem to be any documentation recording how much, say, a top rating radio station in a major city like New York or LA or London actually has to pay for playing a song.

There is actually information about this available - in fact there's a thread somewhere in this forum that mentions sources - but the way they compute payments is arcane, to say the least. And it varies with the station, market, time of day, and various other factors.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by hallier

It is interesting that there does not seem to be any documentation recording how much, say, a top rating radio station in a major city like New York or LA or London actually has to pay for playing a song.

The stations pay based on their listenership. The more people that listen to the station, the more they have to pay the PROs. Same with TV stations. Everything is driven by ratings.

There are several ways the songs get tracked depending on your PRO. For example, SESAC was watermarking everything (not sure if they still do).

But... the first thing you have to realize, is that there are contracts involved. A person from a record label approaches a radio station programmer and tries to "sell" him on whatever new song the label is pushing. When the programmer agrees to put the song on the air, he/she signs an "add" agreement. Within that agreement it states how many times a day it will be played and for how many weeks. The magic number is 250. Every song has a lifespan of 250 spins on each radio station. Doesn't matter if it plays it 250 times in one month, or 250 times over a year. Once the song starts getting up around 250 spins, the station usually starts getting calls from listeners saying they are sick of the song. So an add contract usually states it is for 250 spins. The station may play it more than 250 times... but they guarantee they will play it 250 times over a period of time. That period of time determines whether it is heavy rotation or light rotation.

Secondly... each radio station has to keep a log book of everything that airs for the FCC. Most station will also use this log book (or some derivative of it) to send to the PROs for usage reporting.

Thirdly, some PROs, like ASCAP, also use a survey system. They record hours of random radio and TV broadcasts across the country and send it to all their publishers (upon the publisher's request). The publishers then listen to all the CDs (there are usually at least 50 CDs for every quarter) and try to find uses for the songs in their catalog. They write down the CD# and time and what song of theirs was used, and then send that back to ASCAP. ASCAP checks its records to make sure those uses were reported and paid out. If not, ASCAP pays triple rate to the publisher and writer, fines the broadcaster for failure to report and then recalculates the "Average" usage of that track. I'm not sure if BMI or SESAC do the survey thing. I don't think they do. But I believe they have other way of auditing the broadcasters.

Fourthly, the entire industry uses a service called "BDS" which stands for "Broadcast Data Systems" and it is run by the Nielsen company (same company who does the ratings for TV shows and SoundScan for retail sales). BDS monitors radio stations and TV stations and tracks uses of songs submitted to them. But, the catch is you have to sign up for their service AND submit your music to them so they can start looking for it.

Billboard and other online charts use the BDS system to calculate their charts. label can get weekly reports from BDS and see EXACTLY how many times each radio station around the US has played their song each day of the week. They can then use this to pressure the programmer that might not be playing the song enough, if he is in breech of his/her "add" contract terms.

Are people underpaid from unreported usage? Sure. But as a song becomes a bigger hit, you get paid more anyway with "hit bonuses" and whatnot. So it all kind of evens out in the wash. In the end, all the PROs make a finite amount of money every year. So they have to figure out ways to pay out everyone from that finite amount collected. This is why they all have weighting systems for performances. And what you will see, and I have noticed this in TV/Film, as the reporting and accounting of uses becomes more accurate, they end up having to change the rates (usually dropping them) to keep themselves from going into the red and not having enough money to pay everyone in a given year.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch

The stations pay based on their listenership. The more people that listen to the station, the more they have to pay the PROs. Same with TV stations. Everything is driven by ratings.

There are several ways the songs get tracked depending on your PRO. For example, SESAC was watermarking everything (not sure if they still do).

But... the first thing you have to realize, is that there are contracts involved. A person from a record label approaches a radio station programmer and tries to "sell" him on whatever new song the label is pushing. When the programmer agrees to put the song on the air, he/she signs an "add" agreement. Within that agreement it states how many times a day it will be played and for how many weeks. The magic number is 250. Every song has a lifespan of 250 spins on each radio station. Doesn't matter if it plays it 250 times in one month, or 250 times over a year. Once the song starts getting up around 250 spins, the station usually starts getting calls from listeners saying they are sick of the song. So an add contract usually states it is for 250 spins. The station may play it more than 250 times... but they guarantee they will play it 250 times over a period of time. That period of time determines whether it is heavy rotation or light rotation.

Secondly... each radio station has to keep a log book of everything that airs for the FCC. Most station will also use this log book (or some derivative of it) to send to the PROs for usage reporting.

Thirdly, some PROs, like ASCAP, also use a survey system. They record hours of random radio and TV broadcasts across the country and send it to all their publishers (upon the publisher's request). The publishers then listen to all the CDs (there are usually at least 50 CDs for every quarter) and try to find uses for the songs in their catalog. They write down the CD# and time and what song of theirs was used, and then send that back to ASCAP. ASCAP checks its records to make sure those uses were reported and paid out. If not, ASCAP pays triple rate to the publisher and writer, fines the broadcaster for failure to report and then recalculates the "Average" usage of that track. I'm not sure if BMI or SESAC do the survey thing. I don't think they do. But I believe they have other way of auditing the broadcasters.

Fourthly, the entire industry uses a service called "BDS" which stands for "Broadcast Data Systems" and it is run by the Nielsen company (same company who does the ratings for TV shows and SoundScan for retail sales). BDS monitors radio stations and TV stations and tracks uses of songs submitted to them. But, the catch is you have to sign up for their service AND submit your music to them so they can start looking for it.

Billboard and other online charts use the BDS system to calculate their charts. label can get weekly reports from BDS and see EXACTLY how many times each radio station around the US has played their song each day of the week. They can then use this to pressure the programmer that might not be playing the song enough, if he is in breech of his/her "add" contract terms.

Are people underpaid from unreported usage? Sure. But as a song becomes a bigger hit, you get paid more anyway with "hit bonuses" and whatnot. So it all kind of evens out in the wash. In the end, all the PROs make a finite amount of money every year. So they have to figure out ways to pay out everyone from that finite amount collected. This is why they all have weighting systems for performances. And what you will see, and I have noticed this in TV/Film, as the reporting and accounting of uses becomes more accurate, they end up having to change the rates (usually dropping them) to keep themselves from going into the red and not having enough money to pay everyone in a given year.

That's a pretty good description except for one thing and that is the fact that most of the big chain stations are not individually programmed any more, they for the most part don't even use DJs onsite, and they don't have user feedback lines any more. That's why you get annoying oversaturated playing of a very tight playlist of 20 or fewer songs. These megacorporate stations are programmed centrally and playlists are chosen by advertizing focus groups, not individual program directors. There may or may not be a guy at the station with the title "program director" but generally he's just a puppet with no discretion to choose the playlist. In some cases the actual radio shows are generated from a central location and sent to the stations.

About the only places where this doesn't hold true are the major music centers of LA, NYC, and Nashville.

Locally programmed radio is dead, killed by the FCC deregulation policies that allowed big corporations to purchase multiple stations and to own more than one station per market.

It's a disaster.

[hallier]

Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch

The stations pay based on their listenership. The more people that listen to the station, the more they have to pay the PROs. Same with TV stations. Everything is driven by ratings.

There are several ways the songs get tracked depending on your PRO. For example, SESAC was watermarking everything (not sure if they still do).

But... the first thing you have to realize, is that there are contracts involved. A person from a record label approaches a radio station programmer and tries to "sell" him on whatever new song the label is pushing. When the programmer agrees to put the song on the air, he/she signs an "add" agreement. Within that agreement it states how many times a day it will be played and for how many weeks. The magic number is 250. Every song has a lifespan of 250 spins on each radio station. Doesn't matter if it plays it 250 times in one month, or 250 times over a year. Once the song starts getting up around 250 spins, the station usually starts getting calls from listeners saying they are sick of the song. So an add contract usually states it is for 250 spins. The station may play it more than 250 times... but they guarantee they will play it 250 times over a period of time. That period of time determines whether it is heavy rotation or light rotation.

Secondly... each radio station has to keep a log book of everything that airs for the FCC. Most station will also use this log book (or some derivative of it) to send to the PROs for usage reporting.

Thirdly, some PROs, like ASCAP, also use a survey system. They record hours of random radio and TV broadcasts across the country and send it to all their publishers (upon the publisher's request). The publishers then listen to all the CDs (there are usually at least 50 CDs for every quarter) and try to find uses for the songs in their catalog. They write down the CD# and time and what song of theirs was used, and then send that back to ASCAP. ASCAP checks its records to make sure those uses were reported and paid out. If not, ASCAP pays triple rate to the publisher and writer, fines the broadcaster for failure to report and then recalculates the "Average" usage of that track. I'm not sure if BMI or SESAC do the survey thing. I don't think they do. But I believe they have other way of auditing the broadcasters.

Fourthly, the entire industry uses a service called "BDS" which stands for "Broadcast Data Systems" and it is run by the Nielsen company (same company who does the ratings for TV shows and SoundScan for retail sales). BDS monitors radio stations and TV stations and tracks uses of songs submitted to them. But, the catch is you have to sign up for their service AND submit your music to them so they can start looking for it.

Billboard and other online charts use the BDS system to calculate their charts. label can get weekly reports from BDS and see EXACTLY how many times each radio station around the US has played their song each day of the week. They can then use this to pressure the programmer that might not be playing the song enough, if he is in breech of his/her "add" contract terms.

Are people underpaid from unreported usage? Sure. But as a song becomes a bigger hit, you get paid more anyway with "hit bonuses" and whatnot. So it all kind of evens out in the wash. In the end, all the PROs make a finite amount of money every year. So they have to figure out ways to pay out everyone from that finite amount collected. This is why they all have weighting systems for performances. And what you will see, and I have noticed this in TV/Film, as the reporting and accounting of uses becomes more accurate, they end up having to change the rates (usually dropping them) to keep themselves from going into the red and not having enough money to pay everyone in a given year.

Thanks for taking the time to put together such a detailed post

I suppose what I was wondering was whether a top rating station would have to pay 10c per play, or 50c per play, or $10 per play. What is the cost used to determine the number that is then redistributed by groups like ASCAP? A UK poster on another thread gave a number that was something like 50 pounds! That would be about $75 per play. That seems way over the odds!

[dan p]

[QUOTE


Locally programmed radio is dead, killed by the FCC deregulation policies that allowed big corporations to purchase multiple stations and to own more than one station per market.

It's a disaster.[/QUOTE]
Yep John:
Clear channel comes to my mind and the playlists here around the bay area are pathetic but its akin to the good ole boys network.Talk radio has problems too.
Its gotten a bit more conservative.....

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

That's a pretty good description except for one thing and that is the fact that most of the big chain stations are not individually programmed any more, they for the most part don't even use DJs onsite, and they don't have user feedback lines any more. That's why you get annoying oversaturated playing of a very tight playlist of 20 or fewer songs. These megacorporate stations are programmed centrally and playlists are chosen by advertizing focus groups, not individual program directors. There may or may not be a guy at the station with the title "program director" but generally he's just a puppet with no discretion to choose the playlist. In some cases the actual radio shows are generated from a central location and sent to the stations.

About the only places where this doesn't hold true are the major music centers of LA, NYC, and Nashville.

Locally programmed radio is dead, killed by the FCC deregulation policies that allowed big corporations to purchase multiple stations and to own more than one station per market.

It's a disaster.

That's actually not true. One of my best friends is a regional promotions rep for Interscope. Half of his job is to meet with these program directors and try to convince them to play new music released by Interscope, Geffen, and A&M. The other half is to take Interscope artists to radio stations for on-air interviews with the stations' DJs.

How would either of those things be possible if stations didn't have DJs nor program directors?

Second, while people might think the playlists come down from the corporate headquarters of whatever company owns the radio station, that actually isn't true. The main reason being, the corp headquarters DOES NOT want to be responsible for listenership. That is why they have program directors. the listenership of the station and the ad revenue of the station are the direct responsibility of the program director, NOT corporate headquarters. Because culture and people's tastes differ from region to region, and from city to city, they want to make the program directors responsible for having their fingers on the "pulse" of the area they broadcast.

That way, if the station's ratings are sucking, they fire the program director and get a new one (which happens ALL the time, by the way, PD jobs are extremely volatile). Station PD jobs are one of the most stressful in the industry since all the pressure for the station to perform is put on their shoulders and nobody else's.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by hallier

Thanks for taking the time to put together such a detailed post

I suppose what I was wondering was whether a top rating station would have to pay 10c per play, or 50c per play, or $10 per play. What is the cost used to determine the number that is then redistributed by groups like ASCAP? A UK poster on another thread gave a number that was something like 50 pounds! That would be about $75 per play. That seems way over the odds!

First of all, the stations themselves do not pay the PROs PER USE. There is no "10 cents per ASCAP artist spin, 8 cents per BMI spin" etc. It is a flat fee "blanket license" they pay every year for the rights to play as much music from that PRO's roster as they want. The blanket license varies from year to year based on the nielson ratings for the stations.

So for example, the highest market is NYC. There are more people per square mile in NYC than almost anywhere else, and a lot of them listen to the radio. So the blanket rate for a KISSFM in NYC are going to be substantially higher than the rate for KISSFM in Tulsa, OK.

And like I said the rates might vary from year to year. I know when I was in college, a friend of mine (same friend that now works at Interscope) was program director for Salem State University Radio (Salem, MA). I remember him telling me back in the 90s they had to pay something like $10,000 a year to each PRO. And for that yearly fee of $10,000 they were allowed to play any music represented by that PRO. As a point of reference, I heard someone from NBC at a conference a couple years ago mention that NBC TV broadcasting (national) pays $25mil a year to ASCAP and BMI (it could be even more now). So that combined total of $50mil allows NBC to play as much music as they want from any ASCAP or BMI composer throughout that year.

That's why I was saying, there is a finite "pool" of money. the stations do not pay per use, they pay a blanket. But the artists get paid per use... so there is a finite "pie" that has to get divided up to pay everyone for there uses out of that flat blanket fee.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch

That's actually not true. One of my best friends is a regional promotions rep for Interscope. Half of his job is to meet with these program directors and try to convince them to play new music released by Interscope, Geffen, and A&M. The other half is to take Interscope artists to radio stations for on-air interviews with the stations' DJs.

How would either of those things be possible if stations didn't have DJs nor program directors?

Second, while people might think the playlists come down from the corporate headquarters of whatever company owns the radio station, that actually isn't true. The main reason being, the corp headquarters DOES NOT want to be responsible for listenership. That is why they have program directors. the listenership of the station and the ad revenue of the station are the direct responsibility of the program director, NOT corporate headquarters. Because culture and people's tastes differ from region to region, and from city to city, they want to make the program directors responsible for having their fingers on the "pulse" of the area they broadcast.

That way, if the station's ratings are sucking, they fire the program director and get a new one (which happens ALL the time, by the way, PD jobs are extremely volatile). Station PD jobs are one of the most stressful in the industry since all the pressure for the station to perform is put on their shoulders and nobody else's.

Well, to not put too fine a point on it, you live in LA, which, as I noted earlier, is one of the very few places left in the country where vestiges of the old system still survive. Yes, there still are program directors and real live DJs in LA. And in Nashville, and NYC. But elsewhere? Not so much. Independently programmed commercial radio is gone in San Francisco where I live. You basically have a choice between commercial rap (with a tight playlist), oldies, easy listening/lite jazz (i.e. office music), and talk. Consequently most of the people I know don't even bother with the radio anymore - everyone's on Pandora.

In fact in SF the student radio stations which were bastions of independent radio are losing their licenses which are being sold off to commercial interests. The influential KUSF is off the air and has only an internet presence. Berkeley's KALX is embattled. The student station down the peninsula (whose call letters escape me at the moment) is off the air as well.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Liquid360

Any really talented artist can write a "hit" song.

You know, that's a common perception but it's not entirely true.

People tend to forget that many great artists don't write at all and even those who do still often look for material from other writers.

Elvis didn't write. Neither did Whitney Houston.