25th June 2010
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#31 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Mar 2009 Location: unincorporated marin county
Posts: 1,824
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What do football games, concerts, and many other activities have in common?
1) They keep getting more and more expensive while incomes don't keep up.
2) The alternatives become comparatively cheaper and more enjoyable.
A live NFL game in the 1970s was miles better than watching the game on a 12" black & white TV. Also not too expensive. Now?
10 dollar beers.
7 dollar hot dogs.
25 on up just to park.
tickets? Cheap seats are usually 40 or 50 bucks. You pay a lot more for good seats at a big market team.
The alternative now? 52" or larger HDTV with surround sound, beer costs less than 2 dollars a bottle, parking is free and I don't have to drive.
Concerts are probably similar. There are very few bands I care about seeing live. I wouldn't mind seeing Pink Floyd in the 70s, and how much did they charge even factoring in inflation? What are the jonas bros charging? How much extra does ticketmaster add? Anyone here feel like seeing them for free?
and yeah, the economy sucks.
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25th June 2010
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#32 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,942
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What? We have the worst worldwide economy in decades and people won't spend their last $100 on a concert ticket? Shocking!
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27th June 2010
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#33 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,942
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I love you you guys take an artist that no one in the US knows, that wants to tour outside her means and use it as an example of how touring won't work. In the meantime, tons of bands are touring and making money.
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27th June 2010
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#34 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Apr 2009 Location: State of Insomnia, sleepless USA
Posts: 2,177
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Originally Posted by Neenja  What? We have the worst worldwide economy in decades and people won't spend their last $100 on a concert ticket? Shocking! | music/entertainment has historically done very well in economic declines..
...and don't tell me this decline has anything to do with the current economic state, this has been going on for much longer.
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27th June 2010
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#35 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,942
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Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh music/entertainment has historically done very well in economic declines..
...and don't tell me this decline has anything to do with the current economic state, this has been going on for much longer. | Please tell us what is causing it. Are people pirating live shows? Did Live Nation spend too much money because they're idiots? Let us in on the secret.
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28th June 2010
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#36 | | Gear Guru
Joined: Oct 2002 Location: Oz
Posts: 19,684
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No one knows?  | |
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28th June 2010
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#37 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 952
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Originally Posted by chrisso No one knows? | Never heard of him/her either
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28th June 2010
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#38 | | Gear addict
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 497
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Did someone here miss the Grammy's? Imogene won one this year, albeit for engineering I think, but I'd reckon that a lot of what is at play is getting people to show up and pony up plus that record companies are trying to grab a portion of touring and merchandise money these days. More hands in the pie, and less pie. makes sense. I play with a sideman for a major artist. We don't tour the solo project for similar reasons. also, I think we are in the Guitar Hero age, AC/DC, Eagles, etc are doing well , with an enormous gap between them and even established up and comers.
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28th June 2010
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#39 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 952
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Originally Posted by skylabfilmpop Did someone here miss the Grammy's? Imogene won one this year, albeit for engineering I think, but I'd reckon that a lot of what is at play is getting people to show up and pony up plus that record companies are trying to grab a portion of touring and merchandise money these days. More hands in the pie, and less pie. makes sense. I play with a sideman for a major artist. We don't tour the solo project for similar reasons. also, I think we are in the Guitar Hero age, AC/DC, Eagles, etc are doing well , with an enormous gap between them and even established up and comers. |
I never watch the Grammys. I really could not care less about that popularity contest. All it really proves is who kissed who's ass the best.
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28th June 2010
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#40 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Feb 2008 Location: Manchester, England
Posts: 1,359
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Given Imogen's involvement in every facet of her career, I wouldn't be surprised if she was made aware of how much tour support was going to be coming out of her royalties.
In the old days bands didn't even think about things like that, but today even civilians know EVERYTHING comes out of your royalties.
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29th June 2010
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#41 | | Gear Guru
Joined: Oct 2002 Location: Oz
Posts: 19,684
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Neenja Please tell us what is causing it. Are people pirating live shows? | The people who are pirating music aren't really interested in live music. Firstly, and obviously, they have to pay.
Secondly, it was always going to be the case that the more you force performers to hit the road to earn a crust, the more the concert scene would be over run by touring acts and potential customers would start to be very picky what they spent their money on.
The live dollar hasn't exploded over the last 10 to 20 years. There are the same amount of dollars out there, just more and more artists chasing them (to make up for lost revenue from pirated recordings).
It's really pretty plain and simple.
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Chris Whitten
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29th June 2010
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#42 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Jul 2008 Location: new york city
Posts: 1,503
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Originally Posted by lagavulin16 They should break ticketmaster's stranglehold.
In the age of the internet, they provide absolutely nothing of value. Back when you had to call to order tickets they had to staff call centers and probably had a lot of overhead.
Amazon could run the whole thing in the corner of their data center. I could understand a surcharge of 5-10% but they typically charge up to 50%... and let's not forget what they charge for "shipping". | Yes, the whole Ticketmaster monopoly is a terrible thing for the industry - and their process is opaque. There have been several shows I've thought about seeing - and if it was like going to the movies I would have bought a ticket - but it's more like booking an airplane flight in the 1970s. No thanks . . .
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29th June 2010
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#43 | | Gear addict
Joined: Jul 2003 Location: new york
Posts: 361
| Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso The people who are pirating music aren't really interested in live music. Firstly, and obviously, they have to pay.
Secondly, it was always going to be the case that the more you force performers to hit the road to earn a crust, the more the concert scene would be over run by touring acts and potential customers would start to be very picky what they spent their money on.
The live dollar hasn't exploded over the last 10 to 20 years. There are the same amount of dollars out there, just more and more artists chasing them (to make up for lost revenue from pirated recordings).
It's really pretty plain and simple. | This is EXACTLY the same problem with every revenue stream available to musicians. When the primary stream ( sales of music ) is down 60%+ Artists are chasing secondary streams to make up the difference. This has caused downward pressure for all revenue streams for artists.
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29th June 2010
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#44 | | GS Community Manager
Joined: Jan 2006 Location: Surrey / London | | |
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4th July 2010
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#45 | | Gear Guru
Joined: Mar 2008 Location: the big rack
Posts: 11,256
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4th July 2010
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#46 | | Gear Guru
Joined: Oct 2002 Location: Oz
Posts: 19,684
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I have been saying this for over a year on these type of threads.
I live in a rural, albeit touristy area.
Every summer ten years or so ago you might get two or three really huge bands playing a winery here. The last couple of years it's been almost every weekend, probably ten major acts coming through. Tickets are in the $hundreds, and you can't bring your own food or water.
For a brief while it was a license to print money for the winery, promoter and artist. But now the public have grown bored with the concept and tired of shelling out huge amounts of money for poor vision and sound, and poor quality food.
The majority will attend if it's a band they really have to see, which is usually one or two each summer season.
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7th July 2010
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#47 | | GS Community Manager
Joined: Jan 2006 Location: Surrey / London | | |
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8th July 2010
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#48 | | Gear Guru
Joined: Mar 2008 Location: the big rack
Posts: 11,256
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8th July 2010
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#49 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,942
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We might be headed into a period that will rival the Great Depression and you guys are shocked that people aren't going to see expensive live shows.  | |
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9th July 2010
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#50 | | Gear Guru
Joined: Oct 2002 Location: Oz
Posts: 19,684
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BS.
We are the opposite of shocked.
We were the ones that said live shows, especially with inflated ticket prices, were not the answer.
We're being proved right, and sooner than expected.
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9th July 2010
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#51 | | GS Community Manager
Joined: Jan 2006 Location: Surrey / London | | |
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9th July 2010
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#52 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Dec 2008 Location: Rio de Janeiro
Posts: 864
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wait wait wait...
Am i the only one who saw this on the "touring is bad" article: Quote: |
That's the brutal reality of touring today: many of the larger venues are owned by the same company, which can set the ticket prices to the fans while also setting how much the artist receives. And because it's an effective monopoly, if you want to do a nationwide tour you tend to get locked in. And there's also the question of who sells the tickets: Ticketmaster and Live Nation finalised their merger in January, and despite the best efforts there are concerns that there's not enough competition to offer ticketing services.
| Obviously the problem is not on touring and doing lots of concerts...
Monopoly (über-capitalism)...
Independence or death!!!
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To ravage, to slaughter, to usurp under false titles, they call empire; and where they make a desert, they call it peace.
- Tacitus 98 AD.
Anything that is too stupid to be spoken is sung.
- Pierre de Beaumarchais, 1775
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9th July 2010
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#53 | | Gear nut
Joined: Jan 2009 Location: Hell-Lay, CA
Posts: 114
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competition is always better for the consumer, and companies always work towards more market share and control till theyre forced to comply with anti-trust laws. i mean, how many times did they break up the phone companies over the last 30 years just to have them all merge back together till they had to break them up again.
so how ticketmaster and live nation are allowed to merge without the FTC stopping it is ridiculous. i guess if you have enough money, you can buy the legality of anything.
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10th July 2010
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#54 | | MonsterIsland.com
Joined: Sep 2005 Location: New York City
Posts: 4,377
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Originally Posted by EFF | The problem is her logic.
The reason she can't afford to tour is that she's not able to sell enough tickets. If she had more income from record sales or any other source, she'd just be pissing it away on touring.
At some point the problem is not piracy, it's simply not having enough fans - which happened even in eras where the pricay issue was totally different.
The way in which her touring is affected by piracy is weakened labels. If labels had more money, she'd be more likely to have a deal, which is where she'd get here VC four touring and could work to build he fan base. You have to have the initial VC to build the fan base which is why true DIY successes are still so rare.
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10th July 2010
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#55 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,942
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Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey The problem is her logic.
The reason she can't afford to tour is that she's not able to sell enough tickets. If she had more income from record sales or any other source, she'd just be pissing it away on touring.
At some point the problem is not piracy, it's simply not having enough fans - which happened even in eras where the pricay issue was totally different.
The way in which her touring is affected by piracy is weakened labels. If labels had more money, she'd be more likely to have a deal, which is where she'd get here VC four touring and could work to build he fan base. You have to have the initial VC to build the fan base which is why true DIY successes are still so rare. | You're never going to get that agreed with here. Piracy is the only problem and once the pirates are tried and hung the glory days of the music industry will return.
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12th July 2010
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#56 | | MonsterIsland.com
Joined: Sep 2005 Location: New York City
Posts: 4,377
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Originally Posted by Neenja You're never going to get that agreed with here. Piracy is the only problem and once the pirates are tried and hung the glory days of the music industry will return. | If she doesn't have enough fans, then she doesn't have enough fans.
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12th July 2010
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#57 | | Gear Guru
Joined: Mar 2008 Location: the big rack
Posts: 11,256
Thread Starter |
all thinks in this thread suggest is that "touring" and "selling concert tickets" actually are not the "solution" for artists to "make money" to replace lost revenue do to piracy.
concert ticket sales being down are not a result of piracy, but they also are not the "solution" to it either as so many here would like to suggest.
and as chris pointed out... Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso BS.
We are the opposite of shocked.
We were the ones that said live shows, especially with inflated ticket prices, were not the answer.
We're being proved right, and sooner than expected. | | |
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12th July 2010
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#58 | | MonsterIsland.com
Joined: Sep 2005 Location: New York City
Posts: 4,377
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Originally Posted by EFF all thinks in this thread suggest is that "touring" and "selling concert tickets" actually are not the "solution" for artists to "make money" to replace lost revenue do to piracy.
concert ticket sales being down are not a result of piracy, but they also are not the "solution" to it either as so many here would like to suggest.
and as chris pointed out... | One independent artist is not proof of anything.
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12th July 2010
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#59 | | Gear Guru
Joined: Mar 2008 Location: the big rack
Posts: 11,256
Thread Starter | Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey One independent artist is not proof of anything. | sure - but two pages links to canceled tour dates in one thread might be!
but also - isn't it the indie artist who is supposed to make up for lost album sales due to piracy by selling more "concert tickets" and "t-shirts"? Quote:
Originally Posted by EFF | Quote:
Originally Posted by adpz | Quote:
Originally Posted by John Moran | Quote:
Originally Posted by whitecat | Quote:
Originally Posted by EFF | Quote:
Originally Posted by whitecat | Quote:
Originally Posted by EFF | Quote:
Originally Posted by whitecat | | |
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13th July 2010
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#60 | | MonsterIsland.com
Joined: Sep 2005 Location: New York City
Posts: 4,377
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Originally Posted by EFF sure - but two pages links to canceled tour dates in one thread might be!
but also - isn't it the indie artist who is supposed to make up for lost album sales due to piracy by selling more "concert tickets" and "t-shirts"? | Yes, but giving away music to build a following (in an oversimplified once sentence version).
Maybe if her recordings were not only freely traded, but given away in an organized way so that there was a trade of files for contact info, she'd be able to directly reach her fans and personally invite them to shows.
The first bit of news I heard about her tour was not that it was happening, but that it was canceled. And even that only happened because of the sensationalism of attributing it to reduced sales, which is not at all why she can't tour.
The reason she can't tour is because she doesn't have enough fans who want to see her play. That's true of every artist who subsidizes tours with record sales money. Although it's the label not the artist who does that. The problem is not lost sales, it's lack of fans.
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