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8th February 2010
| #181 | ||
| Lives for gear  | Quote:
in case you missed this... Verizon ends service of alleged illegal downloaders | Digital Media - CNET News "Sharing" is no longer an ambiguous issue as in "sharing isn't a crime, prove to me it's a crime". It's a crime, it's been proven. Fine. Next. Let's move on to change the law for more appropriate fines and punishments, but let's end the debate about whether there is crime or not in the first place. NET Act: 17 U.S.C. and 18 U.S.C. as amended (redlined) The NET Act amends the definition of "commercial advantage or private financial gain" to include the exchange of copies of copyrighted works even if no money changes hands and specifies penalties of up to five years in prison and up to $250,000 in fines. It also creates a threshold for criminal liability even where the infringer neither obtained nor expected to obtain anything of value for the infringement. The act raised the levels of statutory damages in civil cases to $750 - $30,000 per work (and up to $150,000 per work in case of willful infringement). Biden's Briefing: Media, Anti-Piracy 'Big Dogs' Convene... — Digital Music News Biden's Briefing: Media, Anti-Piracy 'Big Dogs' Convene... Quote: The US-based anti-piracy battle has so many chapters ahead, and the appointment of 'IP czar' Victoria Espinel is just the beginning. On Tuesday afternoon, Vice President Joe Biden hosted a roundtable to discuss the administration's ongoing anti-piracy strategy, and details are just starting to emerge. The meeting was a collection of 'big dogs,' according to one 'Inside-the-Beltway' insider, and the attendee list included Attorney General Eric Holder, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano, Commerce Secretary Gary Locke, FBI Director Robert Mueller, and US Secret Service Director Mark Sullivan. That was just the beginning, as top CEOs from a swath of major media companies (studios, television, book publishing, newspaper, music) were also on deck. On the music side, the cast included Edgar Bronfman, CEO, Warner Music Group; Linda Bloss-Baum, Vice President, Warner Music Group; Zachary Horowitz, President & COO, Universal Music Group; Matthew Gerson, Executive Vice President, Universal Music Group; Mitch Bainwol, Chairman & CEO, RIAA; David Israelite, President & CEO, NMPA; and Kim Roberts Hedgpeth, National Executive Director, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists (AFTRA). The 'other side,' including technology, ISP, and consumer representatives, were not invited. So what was discussed? One insider characterized the meeting as 'introductory in nature,' while noting that 'enough big dogs were present' to stir some serious action. But Biden clearly took the side of media holders, pointing to a problem with 'flat unadulterated theft' that 'should be dealt with,' while calling for the Justice Department to coordinate anti-piracy efforts at a local level. Additionally, Attorney General Eric Holder called for an international meeting to iscuss the issue, a stance that makes sense given the borderless nature of file-sharing technologies. Perhaps all of this is too late for the recording industry, though Hollywood is just starting to get energized. "Once Hollywood gets freaked out, this whole thing goes to another level," another executive relayed. Perhaps that moment has already arrived. The complete attendee list:
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8th February 2010
| #182 | |
| Lives for gear | Quote:
I'm just not a person who believes legitimate business should accept being raped by piracy, nor do I believe that piracy helps to create incentives for new legitimate business models - which can also be stolen wholesale. If I could get my hands on Google's code and build an identical site with the exact same functionality do you think the $750 billion monster would allow it? The support and protection of all forms of IP including trademarks, patents and copyrights are essential to a healthy free market economy. To say otherwise is to be either intellectually dishonest, or incapable of understanding the basic foundation of economics. At worst these arguments are sponsored by only those would profit from stealing from others. the solution will come in the cloud and anti-piracy. we're moving to an access over ownership model. there is too much media to contextualize in meaningful way. what people will want, what will be valuable are tools to filter and organize the content. we're moving from content being king to context being king (although content will still be a prince). Apple's LaLa will be interesting to this end. Ultimately I believe that Spotify, Pandora and other streaming sites are going to get retooled - the economics of these are essentially comparable to terrestrial radio - ie - this is not a replacement for recorded music revenues. I predict songs will be edited to under two minutes and/or have embedded audio ads cross faded over the song as if you were listening to the radio - you just can't give away the thing you are trying to sell without editing or "polluting" it - this will be the new term "polluted" content available for free, "clean" content available at a premium cost. however, until piracy can be managed all bets are off - because no new model that can be developed will be immune to piracy - this is the fundamental problem. This isn't about going backwards, it's about finding a sustainable revenue model for artists to create PROFIT going forward - with or without labels. For all the hype around here about NEW Models it always comes back to the same OLD conversation... OLD MODEL LESS MUSIC SALES REVENUE : IE Playing Live and Selling Merch - both of which are not new, the only thing that is new is there is now NO REVENUE FROM MUSIC SALES... is this so hard to understand? | |
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8th February 2010
| #183 | |
| Gear Guru  Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oz
Posts: 15,358
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8th February 2010
| #184 | |
| Lives for gear  Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: upstate, sc
Posts: 1,739
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IMHO, that is the measure of a true artist, and a most honorable pursuit. In fact, very similar to some of the boutique manufacturers (that we all laud here on this site as) being unwavering in their vision, unconcerned solely with their profit margins, and unwilling to compromise even one iota of their integrity in the pursuit of financial gains or the "bottom line"... IMHO, no one can possibly question the integrity of any content provider (be they artist, or manufacturer, or audio service provider) who offers no compromise, yet understanding all the while that they cannot possibly benefit (at least, financially) in any way, and yet are still absolutely unwavering in their commitment to providing the highest quality possible. And, in the case of (most) music providers: _ALL FOR FREE_ So, who's the true artist and who's the hack, and why would anyone even remotely resembling a sane person choose to pursue this interest? BTW- I've been advising my clients for years that music is free but T-Shirts are at least $20, so you should price merchandise accordingly...
__________________ Sincerely, Casey SC Digital Services  Bob Olhsson wrote on 17th September 2002, 12:56 PM: "Music is being used to sort consumers rather than to entertain people." | |
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9th February 2010
| #185 |
| Gear nut Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 77
| Well we allready have plenty of laws against copyright enfringement as it is, and thousands of lawsuits over the years that did not work. So what would be the actual solution to this problem? You have got pirated material all over bit torrent protocal, newsgroups, and websites. How and where is the technology to clamp down on all this? How can the entire internet be policed without completely wrecking it? And turning us all into China style censorship and government? I don't see any practical solution to this! The problem is when everyone wants to be a crook and has no respect for the other guy; you can't go after everyone in society and lock up all the lawbreakers. There ain't gonna be anyone left to run the prisons! O.K exageration there, but hopefully I am, making a point? Also doesn't anyone realize that due to the global nature of the internet, any and all laws would have to be global in scope. I mean the jerks that write file trading software programs, will likely turn to VPN's and proxy servers before they stop trading material!! |
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9th February 2010
| #186 | |
| Gear addict  Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 472
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Either way, when you factor in the losses of the SAG with those of the RIAA, you're probably in the area of $2B/year due to online piracy. With numbers like those, I pretty well guarantee we'll see some very innovative protection schema be introduced in the near future. (Do a little reading about mobile "long term evolution" and you can start to see a different landscape evolving.) My point continues to be the fact that we're see only seeing the side of the picture that they WANT us to see. (And some of us are screaming that the sky is falling because of it.) I made ~$65K profit last year as a SECONDARY income through music in a limited market. If you're not doing at least as well, there is something wrong with your approach.
__________________ Ideas are like stars; you will not succeed in touching them with your hands. But like the seafaring man on the desert of waters, you choose them as your guides, and following them you will reach your destiny. - Carl Schurz | |
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9th February 2010
| #187 | |||||
| Gear addict Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Waterford/Cork/Dublin Ireland
Posts: 373
| Sorry I've been away for a few days, but I'll try to answer your questions as best I can now......I know you posted these for redvelvet also and perhaps he will have more to add? Quote:
I'm not in denial that the perceived market value of recorded music is low. But lets take piracy out of this picture (or curb it at least) to determine what the real market value should be Here's a post I made earlier that attempts to do just that....... " In the past 10 years we've had more computers more internet access more iPods (some 225,000,000 of them!) more phones with memory more single downloads more bands with better visibility than ever before more people going to more gigs an economic boom cheap credit more disposable income than ever before The world's economy doubled in size from U.S. $30.21 to U.S. $60.59 trillion Yet the music industry is effectively halved? But I think the fairest way to correlate the two, (piracy & revenue) is to look at the growth in gigs. Find out what the growth was in the gigs and I reckon you'll probably get the fairest indicator of what the music industry *should* have grown by without piracy. " If you are saying that....the market value of recorded music is nominal or free, then you have a valid point. Then ask yourself why is the market value perceived to be nominal or free? Quote:
The record companies take a HUGE risk, and I argue that because of piracy, they are less likely to take a risk in developing the more creative artists in the future. I would much rather pay 99c to help quality artists than see them languishing in mc Donalds Now that's equitable don't you think! Quote:
"we want to create a fair and balanced copyright" a few paragraphs later...... "All non-commercial copying and use should be completely free, file sharing and P2P networking should be encouraged rather than criminalized" also...... A quick search of TPB yielded ALL of the UK top 10 7 out of top 10 films (U.K) Call of duty-modern warfare, logic, Native Instruments, some waves stuff etc etc...... Quote:
We need to ask ourselves, is this because of cheaper distribution mechanisms/market saturation OR is it simple elasticity of demand?....ie when something is free, it's extremely hard to convince people to pay otherwise. People still love music, and they'll spend a great deal on gigs, but why won't they spend a great deal on music? redvelvet puts it more succinctly than i ever could..... Quote:
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9th February 2010
| #188 |
| Gear Head Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 57
| The industry needs to re-invent it's self and if the music industry is to get any better soon it needs to act quickly. Bootlegging has been around for a whilst but everyone bootlegging now can do it much easier than it was 20 years ago. When casettes were introduced you could tape your vinyl album for free and then sell it if you wanted, though when CDs were introduced the bootlegging slowed down, the introduction of computers has harmed the industry as well as made it. With computers we've been able to run DAWs from home and create products we can promote over the Internet for free or very cheaply, an easier form of networking was introduced and it became easier to find a target audience. Though with emails and mp3s came file sharing and it's becoming increasingly difficult forthe industry to do anything about it. As much as Metallica lost a huge amount of respect from the napster saga, they were completely right and the industry should have sat up and stopped as much of it as they possibly could. |
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9th February 2010
| #189 |
| Gear addict Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Waterford/Cork/Dublin Ireland
Posts: 373
| jailedmenonly= jailed lemon=banned |
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9th February 2010
| #190 | |
| Gear Head Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 57
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Is Jailed Lemon some guys banned acount? Mine is my pseudonym. Acronym of my name Jamie Donnelly. I'd link you to all my pages but i'd get banned for that. | |
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9th February 2010
| #191 | ||||||
| Gear addict Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 472
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One consideration is that, since we are in a culture of "expendable entertainment", music sans live performance is viewed as "static" and, therefore, having little intrinsic value. Video (Live Performance) has indeed killed the radio star?! I don't know. Just thinking aloud. Quote:
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Take the MEGA-STARS out of the equation and what kind of grooming is the LABEL doing with the artists? What are the A&Rs doing to raise the QUALITY of the artists? The average mean of talent is DROPPING in a market where you can afford to be as picky as ever. The elevated risk is associated with the fact that labels are throwing crap at the wall and seeing what sticks. The old formula still persists: Garbage In = Garbage Out. Quote:
Do I think that Dave Matthews or Alicia Keys should be flipping burgers? HELL NO! But, I don't feel the same about the majority of other gimmicky artists that saturate the market. Quote:
I totally track what you're saying. But this is like reading back Mein Kampf and using it as an overlay to the general public. These are a zealous group of folks who, due to their beliefs, propagate illegal activities. Right now, there is a WEAK counterpoint coming from the RIAA and SAG - and even fewer "solutions" to address the problem. I sincerely am on the side of the artists. In fact, "I are one." But that doesn't mean that we act irrationally or emotionally to a legitimate problem. As so many others have stated, it's time to stop CRYING and starting SOLVING THE PROBLEM.... Most likely, we'll have to do so from a grass-roots position because labels just aren't getting it. | ||||||
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9th February 2010
| #192 | ||
| Lives for gear | Quote:
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9th February 2010
| #193 |
| Gear Head Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Europe
Posts: 40
| While illegal file-sharing has, without a doubt, been playing a huge part in the downfall, we should perhaps also consider other factors:  Source: Ars Technica [How Hollywood plans to keep prices up as movies go online ] Note that the data is expressed here in terms of revenue, and thus says little about physical sales per se (the price for CDs and DVDs has dropped quite a bit in the past few years and the average digital album is cheaper than CDs were in the early 2000's). |
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9th February 2010
| #194 |
| Gear Guru | But, you also have to ask, where perhaps did that extra money come from to buy those games? You may want the music more, but if you don't have to spend any money on it, then that money flows down the priority list to those things that are harder to rip off. So, as always, when people stop playing by the rules of capitalism, it becomes impossible to assign values. You can't tell if they like games more, or just that they can now buy more games because they never had to make the decision whether to buy a game or buy some music.
__________________ Dean Roddey Chairman/CTO Charmed Quark Systems, Ltd www.charmedquark.com Be a control freak! |
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9th February 2010
| #195 | |
| Gear Head Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Europe
Posts: 40
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Nonetheless, I wonder why there are not any solid empirical studies with correlated data on the topic. The actual data on this topic is scarce and limited. Many factors and their evolution would need to be taken into account to draw an accurate picture of the situation at hand: - the cost of production itself; - the cost of marketing; - the cost of distribution; - artists' (including engineers...) revenue; - distributor's revenue; - retail price and retailer's revenue; - the revenue of households and the way it is consumed; - etc... In addition to that, the way physical media is now sold to consumers has changed quite a bit in the past decade, which influences costs and prices (and hence, revenue), e.g Walmart might be the number 1 music retailer today and I assume it does not buy from wholesalers at the same price independant corner record shops did. Illegal file-sharing is an obvious culprit, there is no denying it, but I am sure we, as people involved in music production, could benefit from a more realistic view on the topic. That might even help us thinking of how to save our art (and business...). | |
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9th February 2010
| #196 |
| Lives for gear | priacy - the numbers... the numbers... * 95% of music is illegally distributed - legal music sales are $6 Billion in the USA. * so $6 billion = 5% of total music consumption * that would mean if 100% of the music in the hands of consumers was purchased it would total $120 Billion ($6B x 20 = $120 Billion or 100%). * so even if piracy could be reduced so that the only 10% of music consumed were purchased annual revenue would be $12 Billion (double what it is now and pretty close to where it was before p2p took hold) * if piracy were reduced to just the degree where 85% were pirated leaving 15% as legitimate sales would mean $18 billion in legitimate revenue in the USA alone * just moving the needle from 5% legitimate sales to 15% legitimate sales is a massive game changer... $18 billion in revenue which would be a new peak for recorded music sales * I don't think anyone needs to argue that legitimate sales would be 120 Billion if piracy we're eliminated - but a quick look at the numbers above and the facts below show that there can be a huge positive change with just a relatively small reduction of piracy... EDUCATION AND PIRACY PARKING TICKETS... EDUCATION AND PIRACY PARKING TICKETS... these are the facts: - music sales began a rapid decline at the introduction of file-sharing  - after ten years of unchecked filesharing music sales have reduced 50% Music's lost decade: Sales cut in half in 2000s - Feb. 2, 2010 - 1% of torrent content is non-infringing Survey: Only 1% of Torrents non-infringing • The Register - 95% of all digitally distributed music is illegal 95% of music downloads are illegal | Music | guardian.co.uk |
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9th February 2010
| #197 |
| Lives for gear  Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Belgica
Posts: 1,745
| 2 cds or a good game? I'd buy the game. I have my good cds. |
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9th February 2010
| #198 | ||||||
| Gear addict Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Waterford/Cork/Dublin Ireland
Posts: 373
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Look up "piracy" on wikipedia......there's many sources bandied about there. Some say that piracy has negligible effect on revenues (tho this is about as bullshit of a paper I've ever seen- it correlates what's popular on the pirate bay to whats popular on the charts, and concludes that YES piracy has no effect on sales because what's popular on the pirate bay is popular in the charts also??????????????????????????????????????) Another bullshit source states that the industry is losing $13 billion to piracy??????????????????????????????????????????????????? So your guess is as good as mine.......somewhere between the two of them I reckon! Quote:
People need to be aware of this group-think/us vs them/cognitive dissonance/confirmation bias that exists within the pro-piracy groups. [confirmation bias is the choosing of one of two conflicting emotions...in the case of piracy, it's way easier to choose elation "I got this album for free" over guilt "i Just stole this, I feel bad"] Quote:
I'm very interested in this notion that piracy will favor the pop-puppet over the most creative of artists. I hope I'll be proven wrong, but I've yet to see any evidence that I will.......you're right that indie artists need little in the way of development, but they still need money to allow them to focus on their art so as they can focus less on their careers in telesales! Quote:
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9th February 2010
| #199 | |
| Gear interested Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 27
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The CD is dead. The album is dead. The recording industry as we once knew it is dead. And there ain't no going back... | |
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9th February 2010
| #200 | |
| Gear Guru | Quote:
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10th February 2010
| #201 | ||
| Lives for gear  Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: LA
Posts: 2,113
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iTunes has sold about 5 billion songs over 6 years or so, or about 833 million units a year. iTunes has about 70% of the digital music market, we can roughly estimate that the entire digital market moves about 1 billion songs a year. So those 1 billion songs are the 5% of the market, and if the 95% illegal downloads were paid for the total market would be about 20 billion songs a year, or $20 billion at 99cents per unit. Not $120 billion. And even that $20 billion is an unrealistic best case scenario. That amounts to somewhere around 2 billion albums, or double the sales at the peak of 1999. So yeah, people consume more when it's free. No way are you going to convert them all to paying customers though. | ||
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10th February 2010
| #202 | |||||
| Lives for gear | Quote:
even if your numbers are correct, it would still show that managing piracy to even just a "good enough" degree yields significant gains for legitimate sales. RESOURCES - IFPI publishes Digital Music Report 2009 Quote:
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Rough Decade: US-Based Albums Tanked 60 Percent In the 2000s... — Digital Music News Album Sales Collapse As Digital Downloads Top 40% Of Market – 24/7 Wall St. Quote:
sooo Quote:
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10th February 2010
| #203 | |
| Gear addict Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 326
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If someone can go to the youtube channel of their favourite artist's label and watch the latest single any time they want, why would they go out of their way to pay for it when they can put that money towards something else? | |
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10th February 2010
| #204 | |
| Lives for gear  Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: unincorporated marin county
Posts: 1,804
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I do find it interesting that so many here look at the past decade which has been horrible for music and newspapers (online and offline revenues combined for both), and they'll say music's issues are all caused by piracy yet the news industries issues were not. I've also written about the difference in listening to music when I was 13 (had to buy the tape, copy it off the radio, copy it off MTV, or copy it off a friend) versus the average 13 year old today who can listen to whatever song they want free/legally on youtube.com or the record company's website. The need to pay in order to access music is gone, because you can access it for free. | |
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10th February 2010
| #205 | ||
| Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: LA
Posts: 2,113
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- Global digital music trade revenues reach US$4.2 billion - More than a quarter of all recorded music industry revenues worldwide are now coming from digital channels That means global music revenues are probably around 16.8 billion. Their report from 2000 says "The global music market was worth US$36.9 billion," so that seems to confirm the 50% drop. NEWS - They didn't say anything in this year's press release about the rate of piracy, so we'll use their 95% figure from last year's report. So $4.2 billion is 5% of $84 billion. Add in the $12.6 billion in physical sales and you get $96 billion. If you think that that 95% is all lost sales all lost sales, you would have to believe that the industry should have grown from $37 billion to $96 billion in the past decade. That doesn't seem realistic to me. So the big unanswered question mark is how many of those 95% of illegal downloads are potential lost sales? I guess that's what you were getting at when you calculated the 10%, 15%, etc of 120 bil. In order to meet the 2000 sales numbers, the industry needs to make an extra $20 billion. If the 95% illegal downloads is 40 billion files downloaded, that means the 5% is 2 billion units at an average of $2 a pop (not sure how that works out. singles & album numbers mixed together?). So to make up the lost $20 bil, the industry needs to sell an extra 10 billion downloads, or convert 1/4 of the current illegal downloads in to legal sales. Or something like that. | ||
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10th February 2010
| #206 |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: LA
Posts: 2,113
| Wow I just realized that I arrived at the $20 billion number in my previous post as well using entirely different statistics.  |
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10th February 2010
| #207 | |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: unincorporated marin county
Posts: 1,804
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10th February 2010
| #208 |
| urumita  Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Spoleto, Italy
Posts: 2,370
| These are not the best of times. 1994, NY, I was making between 150 and 350 a day depending on what I was doing, sometimes more. I have a specific set of skills that at one time were absolutely necessary for anyone of any caliber to start their production process/artistic expression, my skills are still intact and have been enhanced by years of experience. Yet, I must now quit my profession, sell my tools at a drastically devalued prices and create a new identity. In the past 5 years this crisis has brought me divorce, bankrupcy, social alienation and various emotional problems. I love the work I do and I'm also a composer and a musician, I have been well critiqued even as a director in the theater. I don't give a rat's ass about CD prices or heavy honchos or any other reason why one justifies theft and the musician's union is not made from a bunch of ass munchers and everyone who worked in the music industry is filthy rich. Most of them are people like me who are now out of work and potentially a public burden. Anyone who steals music is a thief and a conspirator. To me it's not even an intellectual argument and anyone who wants to start an argument with me about piracy, which is a phenomenon which has all but ruined my life, will find themselves with their collarbones ripped from their torsos and shoved one up their ass and the other down their throats
__________________ love and light |
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10th February 2010
| #209 | ||
| Gear Guru | Quote:
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So Youtube makes money by the boatload, and forces the copyright holder to do all the work, and they know that someone will put it right back up so they'll continue making money by the boatload. They copyright holder cannot just say, NEVER allow this song to be posted. Clearly Youtube actively removes porn before it even gets seen as far as I can tell, so you know they have people monitoring all new posts, therefore they cannot claim they don't watch them all. | ||
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10th February 2010
| #210 | |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: BC
Posts: 894
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