Do music artists fare better in a world with illegal file-sharing?

[RTR]

Originally Posted by kirkhawley

Like it or not, the value of recorded music has been destroyed. Forever. There's only one strategy left - recorded music in a supporting role for bands who play well live. If the business goes in that direction, we'll end up with a music industry consisting mainly of a lot more people making a living playing live music. If you all had any sense that's what you'd be working towards.

Damn looks like people will have to do more than play guitar to be millionaires, like WORK

[Chucho]

Originally Posted by colinmiller

Here's an analogy I tend to use for people who think that people who steal wouldn't buy anyways an therefore don't have an effect on sales and aren't taking anything away by simply making a copy.

Imagine being in a band and you spend $10,000 to make your CD that you want to sell to fans at a show. You make 1,000 CDs to sell at $10 each. I buy one of your CDs for $10. I then proceed to make 1,000 copies and offer them for free to everyone at a table next to yours. Everyone of course opts for the free version instead of paying $10. Now I only made a copy and you still have your 999 CDs, of which I have not taken from you. Yet you are now in debt $9,990. Even though you now have $9,990 less money than you would had it not been for my actions, I am going to tell you that I am not stealing from you and that I am not having any affect on your sales because none of those people would have bought your CDs. In fact I will then go one step further and blame you because you are using outdated business methods. And I will ignore any arguments about how no business plan can compete with free.

Does that seem pretty fair?

This is the point.

If someone is giving it away, I (or you) lose even the chance of a sale.
And if it's free, it should be my decision.

If you have stolen it you no longer have the right to say 'I wouldn't have bought it'. (That argument doesn't work with cars does it?)

As for playing live to make up for the thieves. That's new orchestral music out the window then.

[Revmen]

Did anyone read the article? It seems that the discussion always goes off topic and ends in the same old arguments about piracy based on emotions and not facts. And Author is spreading his propaganda like he does in every piracy related thread. That must get booring or maybe you get paid to do it?

If you read the article it seems like the artists are getting more money now then they got in the past. Isn't that what all the artists always wanted? Shouldn't everybody be happy about that?

[stellar]

it should be up to the artist to decide whether the files should be shared on the internet or not. Illegal file sharing steals this option from the artist. Options have value... so it is still stealing, even if the artist "benefits".

[sage691]

If you're an unsigned artist (99.9% of anybody with real talent these days) and you've made a great revolutionary sounding record and have a killer live show, then the best thing that could ever happen for you is for an army of digital pirates who love your music to "spread the word" and give away millions of free copies. If your stuff really is the next big thing then it's pretty much a guaruntee these days that the labels will have zero interest in it UNTIL you prove that you can attract a major audience, at which point you will not need them anyway. If millions of people fell in love with your music because it is something profound, moving and light years ahead of the current mainstream crapola, then they WILL want to buy SOMETHING from you!! You could sell T Shirts, bumper stickers, get creative and come up with all types of gadgets that have your logo on it. You could sell personally signed collectors editions of your record. They WILL buy it if they really love what you are doing and are big fans!
The problem, as always for the really great artists on the cutting edge, is in getting the EXPOSURE! As usual most here on the GS forum keep seeing the glass as half empty. The simple truth is that 99.9% of all the music being created today (both from labels and non-signed artists) is NOT worth buying! If people love what you are doing enough to make thousands of copies and give them away, it's kind of like they are your apostles spreading the word. And if "the word" is something that really moves people, then you WILL be able to sell SOMETHING as the audience grows. Really talented artists today just need to get more creative about this and figure out other ways to profit from exposure. As usual, the strong will survive and the weak will perish.

[Dean Roddey]

Yeh, I mean who would actually want to sell their music or anything? That would be too much like being a musician, whereas selling t-shirts and refrigerator magnets, that's what the great musicians really want to do.

The problem with that kind of thinking is that you give it away to get exposure, the point of which is to them make money, which you can't because you gave it away and therefore proven that your music has no worth and they'll then just keep stealing it, just more so as you get more exposure, so you are now reduced to the equivalent of a late night infomercial.

Yeh, maybe you make a little money. But, if that many people like your music and actually paid for it, then you'd be selling what you actually make, and making probably a lot more off of it, because you can STILL sell some t-shirts and whatnot if you want.

[sage691]

As usual with most all of your posts Dean the glass is indeed half empty.

BTW, what makes you think that a recording of music is not a "gadget" ? You press a button or click the mouse, and the music is played back.

Records have always been nothing more than advertisements anyway; they are recordings of music, not the music itself. They capture an emotion, a feeling of power, and then translate it to someone else.

I keep hearing the same old dead, tired argument on here that pirating is killing record sales. But pirating of WHAT ? The crapola mainstream cookie-cutter garbage that isn't worth buying anyway ?

If you have a great CD with some truly innovative music and artwork to go along with it, AND you have a great live show with lots of charisma, then people will want to buy a real hardcopy of that record to have. I didn't say don't try and sell the records, I just meant not to look at record sales as the end-all-be-all in today's market.

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

Yeh, I mean who would actually want to sell their music or anything? That would be too much like being a musician, whereas selling t-shirts and refrigerator magnets, that's what the great musicians really want to do.

The problem with that kind of thinking is that you give it away to get exposure, the point of which is to them make money, which you can't because you gave it away and therefore proven that your music has no worth and they'll then just keep stealing it, just more so as you get more exposure, so you are now reduced to the equivalent of a late night infomercial.

Yeh, maybe you make a little money. But, if that many people like your music and actually paid for it, then you'd be selling what you actually make, and making probably a lot more off of it, because you can STILL sell some t-shirts and whatnot if you want.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by RTR

Damn looks like people will have to do more than play guitar to be millionaires, like WORK

what you mean like I'll have to stop my music work and take some high level maths guys job from him? Cuz that's where it all ends - us working in ents take work away from others.... !! Destroying an area of work and commerce only pushes those in one area to another surely?

[Dean Roddey]

Originally Posted by narcoman

what you mean like I'll have to stop my music work and take some high level maths guys job from him? Cuz that's where it all ends - us working in ents take work away from others.... !! Destroying an area of work and commerce only pushes those in one area to another surely?

And of course that ignores the point that if you think it's easy to become a millionaire playing guitar, then try it. It ain't nowhere near easy and if you do become popular enough that that might happen, it's hardly free of cost to you.

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by sage691

As usual with most all of your posts Dean the glass is indeed half empty.

BTW, what makes you think that a recording of music is not a "gadget" ? You press a button or click the mouse, and the music is played back.

Records have always been nothing more than advertisements anyway; they are recordings of music, not the music itself. They capture an emotion, a feeling of power, and then translate it to someone else.

I keep hearing the same old dead, tired argument on here that pirating is killing record sales. But pirating of WHAT ? The crapola mainstream cookie-cutter garbage that isn't worth buying anyway ?

If you have a great CD with some truly innovative music and artwork to go along with it, AND you have a great live show with lots of charisma, then people will want to buy a real hardcopy of that record to have. I didn't say don't try and sell the records, I just meant not to look at record sales as the end-all-be-all in today's market.

sorry I don't buy it at all, first, records are the product, we wind up putting hundreds of hours and sweat, our hearts and a pile of money into making a record, and making it the best we can, and we send it out to radio and some little prick intern sends a copy to one of these pirate sites and suddenly before the record is even available from ITUNES or in stores, it's being pirated and either given away and also being sold at the price of a 1.00 for the whole album, so when you're an indie paying out of pocket for everything, how do think this helps making enough money to make another record.

And you seem to be looking at it from the prospective of a rock band, but what if you have a jazz record with a much smaller market and fewer venues?

And as far as having a great cd, whose to say what's great and what reaches people?

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by monomer

...I'm realy wondering how this all works.

It really all works by word of mouth. The problem is that a title that could only be expected to sell a few thousand copies before p2p now only sells a few hundred.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

... if you do become popular enough that that might happen, it's hardly free of cost to you.

Exactly. There is no free music.

The real question is who pays?

The listener, a patron or just the songwriter and performers?

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by claend

A Pretty interesting study in the UK.
Do music artists fare better in a world with illegal file-sharing? — Times Labs Blog
Cheers!

no.

[monomer]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

It really all works by word of mouth. The problem is that a title that could only be expected to sell a few thousand copies before p2p now only sells a few hundred.

Yes, but a lot of things changed in the time that p2p came about.
The internet in general exposed people to tremendous numbers of artists and labels.
So there suddenly was much more competition from other bands.

I think that most people fail to see how different things are with the internet.
Not talking about piracy, but how internet changed society.
I mean, who goes out to a record shop to buy records these days?

[author]

Originally Posted by sage691

[if] you have a great live show with lots of charisma, then people will want to buy a real hardcopy of that record

Say that to Berlin, Porter, Gershwin, Loesser, Rodgers, Hart, Hammerstein, Leiber, Stoller, and Beatles post '66.

[claend]

I agree with Monomer, the paradigm is clearly changing/changed, and the music seems to have been dissociated to the medium (Vinyl, cassete, CD...). As an artist, Internet has made reaching your audience so convenient (either talking about piracy) and cost-effective(no phisical distribution) that I think is no way going back.


What's going to be the role of the labels/distributors in say 10 years?? Probably the big ones will end up controlling the" legal" online bussiness in a way or another (spotify...). Meanwhile, I'm happy to see that at least musicians are doing well/better by playing live.


It wasn't that easy for bands in the label-era, what was the revenue from CD sale for a lucky artist selling let's say 10,000 copies? 2-3000$?? And the band stills has to pay the recording loan to the label first??? Anyway, how many artists were selling that figures?? say a generous 5%??

Hell yeah, it's getting really hard to make real money by recording artists, but that's affected by so many other factors than only p2p.

[lagavulin16]

Is the point to touch people with your creation, or is the point to get rich off your creation?

It's better for the first group and worse for the second group.

[DS Speed-Freak]

Originally Posted by lagavulin16

Is the point to touch people with your creation, or is the point to get rich off your creation?

Why not Both? Maybe not rich per se but at least a decent living is warranted...

[lagavulin16]

Originally Posted by DS Speed-Freak

Why not Both? Maybe not rich per se but at least a decent living is warranted...

Nothing is "warranted" in this world. You'll get what it's worth. Unfortunately, music isn't worth what it once was.

[The MPCist]

Screw studies and surveys.

The answer is NO.

[Dean Roddey]

Originally Posted by lagavulin16

Nothing is "warranted" in this world. You'll get what it's worth. Unfortunately, music isn't worth what it once was.

No, music is as unstealable as it was. It's still as valuable. People just have a way not to cough up the value in order to obtain it. If no one likes his stuff and doesn't buy, that's fine. That's capitalism. No one is guaranteed any particular level of success. The problem is when people DO like his stuff and don't buy it.

[mobius.media]

Originally Posted by monomer

The games industry has become the biggest entertainment industry for one, beating both movies and music.
Which means people are spending their moneys elsewhere.
That may be either a cause for the drop in sales of music, or it might be a reaction to the fact that people have money left from not buying music anymore, i'm not sure yet, propably a bit of both.

Games use proprietary regulated hardware and moderated online networks. They can be piracy regulated. The piracy rate on X Box is negligible compared to with music or movies or more comparably PC games. Why? Because no one wants to get their X Box bricked by Microsoft Live.

Some people only respond to threats. If people could pirate those games instead they would. For the moment, remote monitored hardware and network gameplay means it's not always possible. Lucky for the games industry.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by lagavulin16

Is the point to touch people with your creation, or is the point to get rich off your creation?

It's better for the first group and worse for the second group.

the democratisation of music has ruined he first one though. We have more bands than ever - there are still awesome bands out there, and its the best time ever for art rather than having he most money...but really. Most of the people making recordings out there are just rubbish!!

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by mobius.media

Games use proprietary regulated hardware and moderated online networks. They can be piracy regulated. The piracy rate on X Box is negligible compared to with music or more comparably PC games. Why? Because no one wants to get their X Box bricked by Microsoft Live.

Some people only respond to threats. If people could pirate those games instead they would. For the moment, remote monitored hardware and network gameplay means it's not always possible. Lucky for the games industry.

and precisely what is trying to be done with music. You're "bricked" if you pirate.

[lagavulin16]

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

No, music is as unstealable as it was. It's still as valuable. People just have a way not to cough up the value in order to obtain it. If no one likes his stuff and doesn't buy, that's fine. That's capitalism. No one is guaranteed any particular level of success. The problem is when people DO like his stuff and don't buy it.

It isn't just about copyright infringement. Music is simply more available than it ever was.

It used to be if you wanted to hear a song, you had to sit by the radio and wait for them to play it, watch MTV and wait for the video to come on, or go to the store and buy the CD. Even if you wanted to copy it you had to buy a tape and find someone who owned it.

Take P2P and rapidshare out of the discussion: If I want to hear a song, it's almost guaranteed to be on youtube (typically posted by the record label), your cable company's on demand feature, of the record company/artist website or myspace page.

This is the real reason it isn't worth what is used to be. Technology has put it out there for free, legally.

[lagavulin16]

Originally Posted by narcoman

the democratisation of music has ruined he first one though. We have more bands than ever - there are still awesome bands out there, and its the best time ever for art rather than having he most money...but really. Most of the people making recordings out there are just rubbish!!

It's really a different discussion, but you bring up a good point. There are so many artists and music is so accessible that we don't have albums like we used to.

I used to listen to the same album every night multiple times for months on end. Then I'd move on to another album. The albums I bought and listened to in the early 90s were played hundreds of times all the way through.

There are still a handful of albums I've done that with more recently, but I think I'm in the minority at this point... and it isn't like it used to be for me either.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by lagavulin16

It's really a different discussion, but you bring up a good point. There are so many artists and music is so accessible that we don't have albums like we used to.

I used to listen to the same album every night multiple times for months on end. Then I'd move on to another album. The albums I bought and listened to in the early 90s were played hundreds of times all the way through.

There are still a handful of albums I've done that with more recently, but I think I'm in the minority at this point... and it isn't like it used to be for me either.

yup - i'm the same. But we're a dying breed !!

[mobius.media]

The irony is that even with all the changes in how music is consumed and distributed, people are taking and listening to more music now than ever. They just aren't choosing to pay for it.

So interest in music isn't sagging. It's just too easy to get it through illegal routes.

[uncle duncan]

Originally Posted by lagavulin16

Take P2P and rapidshare out of the discussion: If I want to hear a song, it's almost guaranteed to be on youtube (typically posted by the record label), your cable company's on demand feature, of the record company/artist website or myspace page.

This is the real reason it isn't worth what is used to be. Technology has put it out there for free, legally.

If you take P2P and rapaidshare out of the discussion, the music on Youtube would be controlled by the artists, not by the public. It's not technology that's put the music out there for free, it's theft in the from of illegal P2P that's done that, using technology as the vehicle.

[mobius.media]

youtube pays royalties to the artists. Not much but it's something. And if their business model becomes profitable, it will increase.