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#1081
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1081
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herp Derp View Post
Dude, nothing in life is "free".
Thanks dad, for the free philosophy lesson.
#1082
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1082
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
Did this forum always have ads?
No, but then storing large amounts of data has a cost, as does maintaining a website more or less fulltime. So I would think that's where the need to monetize came in.

Quote:
I suspect the ads are mostly taking what was generally considered a free paradigm and turning it into large profit
That's a guess.
I know a few people who run fora, and it costs them money and costs them a lot of time too. So I'll take my actual experience against your guess thanks.

Quote:
You can have an entire recording system for free.
Really? Is there free recording software you can run without owning a computer?
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#1083
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
Thanks dad, for the free philosophy lesson.
Well, when all your new music is a commercial for a product other than the music itself, and you wonder what WTF?... don't blame me.
#1084
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1084
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
That's a guess.
I know a few people who run fora, and it costs them money and costs them a lot of time too. So I'll take my actual experience against your guess thanks.
How does your actual "experience" with people who run fora apply to Gearslutz profits? It doesn't.

Quote:
Really? Is there a free DAW?
Audacity, for one. Millions of plugins and sounds.

Quote:
What about the computer to run it on?


Well I found this quickly:

freehomecomputer.org > Home

But that is, again, beside the point. If someone gives their music away for free, what are you going to play it on?
#1085
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1085
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
How does your actual "experience" with people who run fora apply to Gearslutz profits? It doesn't.
It means I'm more informed about potential costs than you guessing.

If effective recording software and plug-ins are free, why do so many people feel they need to illegally download cracked versions of music software that is made for sale?
Surely the legal free stuff would take over and no one would be able to sell anything.
#1086
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1086
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
It means I'm more informed about potential costs than you guessing.
No it doesn't. What are the costs and profits of Gearslutz, which is what we're talking about?

Quote:
If effective recording software and plug-ins are free, why do so many people feel they need to illegally download cracked versions of music software that is made for sale?
Surely the legal free stuff would take over and no one would be able to sell anything.
Again, the point was just that there is a lot of free software, not a few.

Do you think no one uses the free stuff? Part of the reason is, as usual, marketing and monetizing. Another different example is Reaper, which is not crippled. Why do people pay when they don't have to?
#1087
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1087
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I thought we were talking about 'forums such as this' and whether they were free or not, and whether they needed money to cover costs or to make profits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
The thing about forums such as this is that at one time, I don't believe any money was changing hands, no data, no marketing. Just people "talking". Now, you still don't have to pay, nor do you have to look at the ads, but hundreds of thousands of dollars are exchanging hands. And the majority of the "content" comes from people like you writing 16,000 posts for free.
I know a couple of people who run 'forums such as this', and it costs them real money to do so, and also takes up a great deal of their time.
So I have some experience. You don't seem to have either experience or evidence, but want to argue with the evidence I've put up.

As to why people pay for music software they could find free alternatives for, I presume it's because the paid for software offers a better experience.
I would rather buy and use Logic and Ableton than use Audacity.
I would rather buy Maschine, than use a free 909 drum library someone posted a link to here. I think that's why pirates download illegal versions of paid for software, because they want it and don't want the free alternatives. What would be your view on that theory?
#1088
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1088
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I thought we were talking about 'forums such as this' and whether they were free or not, and whether they needed money to cover costs or to make profits?

I know a couple of people who run 'forums such as this', and it costs them real money to do so, and also takes up a great deal of their time.
So I have some experience. You don't seem to have either experience or evidence, but want to argue with the evidence I've put up.
Where is your evidence? You claim to know some people who run a website and declare that as experience and evidence?



Quote:
As to why people pay for music software they could find free alternatives for, I presume it's because the paid for software offers a better experience.
Why do people pay for Reaper when they don't have to? I believe this is what UBK was getting at. The new paradigm of the internet in monetizing products. It's a different world than before.

Quote:
I think that's why pirates download illegal versions of paid for software, because they want it and don't want the free alternatives. What would be your view on that theory?
If the free alternatives all of a sudden had a price on it, which happens all the time, many probably would now want an illegal version. Others would now pay.
#1089
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1089
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
You claim to know some people who run a website and declare that as experience and evidence?
I know two people who own and run two music forums.
You don't..... and yet you arw happy to suggest most of the money Gearslutz makes from advertising is sheer profit.
You are guessing with no experience, I'm guessing based on some experience from similar sites.

Quote:
Why do people pay for Reaper when they don't have to? I believe this is what UBK was getting at. The new paradigm of the internet in monetizing products. It's a different world than before.
If the free alternatives all of a sudden had a price on it, which happens all the time, many probably would now want an illegal version. Others would now pay.
The above doesn't really make sense to me as a thought bubble.
I'm simply asking why someone would buy Logic rather than Audacity. I'm not asking about monetizing Audacity, or what would happen if Audacity suddenly had a price.
just answer the simple question.
Why do more people pay for 'x' music software, when 'y' music software is completely free of charge?
#1090
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I know two people who own and run two music forums.
You don't..... and yet you arw happy to suggest most of the money Gearslutz makes from advertising is sheer profit.
You are guessing with no experience, I'm guessing based on some experience from similar sites.
You don't know who I know. You do make a lot of assumptions. And you certainly have the ability to stand by what you are arguing no matter how flimsy. Before you presented non-existent "evidence", now you're back to guessing.

Quote:
The above doesn't really make sense to me as a thought bubble.
I'm simply asking why someone would buy Logic rather than Audacity. I'm not asking about monetizing Audacity, or what would happen if Audacity suddenly had a price.
just answer the simple question.
Why do more people pay for 'x' music software, when 'y' music software is completely free of charge?
They obviously are under the impression that it's worth it. So what? Why do people buy a treadmill when they can take a walk for free?
#1091
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1091
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
They obviously are under the impression that it's worth it.
Exactly.
So the future isn't free because people perceive the paid for versions are worth more. That's why paying for goods and services isn't becoming a thing of the past as Gregory supposed, because people tend to think you get what you pay for. And you have to pay for an iLok to even demo Gregory's plug-in.

It took a couple of pages to get there.... but we did in the end.
#1092
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1092
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Exactly.
So the future isn't free because people perceive the paid for versions are worth more. That's why paying for goods and services isn't becoming a thing of the past as Gregory supposed, because people tend to think you get what you pay for. And you have to pay for an iLok to demo Gregory's plug-in.

It took a couple of pages to get there.... but we did in the end.
We didn't get anywhere. You are still debating your "the future is free paradigm" straw man. So we're back to where we started. I suppose it's possible that if I paid for this forum, I would expect a better and more useful conversation. If it was still like this, I'd want my money back.
#1093
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1093
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It's not a strawman to debate the below comment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
Paying money for things is unnatural, it's an artifice that we created in order to expedite the exchange of goods and services. But it is not, nor will it ever be, a default state of mind like, say, breathing. Anytime it ever becomes possible for people to get or do something and not pay money for it, they will do so because it is the path of least resistance, it is most in line with our natural state of simply being.
And yet when people can access free recording software like Audacity, the vast majority choose paid for software like Logic, Ableton, Pro Tools.
Surely Audacity is the 'path of least resistance'.
You can't have it both ways.
Free is 'a default state of mind' unless free equals not as good, or not as valuable as the paid for product.
And that isn't going to change, as gregory claims. because people have years of experience telling them that free products aren't as good as the bought products..... which is exactly why people buy Logic, use priced plug-ins instead of freebies, and go to see the NY Giants instead of touchfootball in Central Park.
#1094
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1094
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
It's not a strawman to debate the below comment:
And yet when people can access free recording software like Audacity, the vast majority choose paid for software like Logic, Ableton, Pro Tools.
Surely Audacity is the 'path of least resistance'.
You can't have it both ways.
Free is 'a default state of mind' unless free equals not as good, or not as valuable as the paid for product.
And that isn't going to change, as gregory claims. because people have years of experience telling them that free products aren't as good as the bought products..... which is exactly why people buy Logic, use priced plug-ins instead of freebies, and go to see the NY Giants instead of touchfootball in Central Park.
Well I'll leave you and he to debate what he said. Obviously what may be the natural state of mind doesn't match up too closely to the world we've created, especially when it comes to marketing and monetizing. I'll ask you this though. If you were going to buy a particular car, and the dealer offered it to you for free, no strings attached, would you insist on paying?
#1095
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1095
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
If you were going to buy a particular car, and the dealer offered it to you for free, no strings attached, would you insist on paying?
No one is doing that. No one is offering a free version of Logic except the pirates. No one is offering a free version of 'Thriller' except the pirates.
The strings attached to that are twofold 1) it's illegal and 2) I'm ripping off another creative person.
#1096
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
No one is doing that. No one is offering a free version of Logic except the pirates. No one is offering a free version of 'Thriller' except the pirates.
The strings attached to that are twofold 1) it's illegal and 2) I'm ripping off another creative person.
You didn't answer the question.
#1097
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1097
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Because it's a false hypothetical.
No car dealers are offering free cars with no strings attached.
We don't need hypotheticals when there are plenty of real world examples to discuss.
For example, the poster (UBK) who seemed to think paying for goods and services was an unnatural state of affairs that could be under threat, also doesn't offer any free products with no strings attached.
#1098
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1098
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#1099
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1099
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
Well I'll leave you and he to debate what he said. Obviously what may be the natural state of mind doesn't match up too closely to the world we've created, especially when it comes to marketing and monetizing. I'll ask you this though. If you were going to buy a particular car, and the dealer offered it to you for free, no strings attached, would you insist on paying?
knowningly accepting stolen goods can be crime, so that's up to you.
#1100
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
They obviously are under the impression that it's worth it. So what? Why do people buy a treadmill when they can take a walk for free?
uhm... but a treadmill offers other benefits... who is stealing them?
#1101
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
No it doesn't. What are the costs and profits of Gearslutz, which is what we're talking about?
if you want to talk about gearslutz, let's talk about why there's no links to warez here... because it's against the rules, and even with the slightest threat of consequences people here don't post those links for "sharing"... because if they do, they will be banned from the site.

see, consequences change behavior, even the slightest of them...
#1102
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1102
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The first time I encountered a treadmill, in the posh workout room of a fancy hotel, I thought the point was to grind away at the roller mat, make it suffer by pushing it along, but the red "malfunction" light kept going on! It was only after a clever bit of deduction it appeared to be the case that no, you let the roller proceed at its own pace and you just walk along on it! What could be a greater madness, I ask you? Where in the hell is the exercise???
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#1103
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Because it's a false hypothetical.
No car dealers are offering free cars with no strings attached.
We don't need hypotheticals when there are plenty of real world examples to discuss.
For example, the poster (UBK) who seemed to think paying for goods and services was an unnatural state of affairs that could be under threat, also doesn't offer any free products with no strings attached.
You still didn't answer the question.

The topics we are discussing are not not just about piracy. The Slash thing was about music not being magical because there's no packaging, for example.

If your only point is that piracy is happening, and if it's stopped, then all will be fine for you, then that's all that needs to be said. There's no point and no meaning in discussing any of these other topics with you.
#1104
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
knowningly accepting stolen goods can be crime, so that's up to you.
#1105
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post

see, consequences change behavior, even the slightest of them...
Who said they didn't? I guess you like to play the straw man game, too.
#1106
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
The first time I encountered a treadmill, in the posh workout room of a fancy hotel, I thought the point was to grind away at the roller mat, make it suffer by pushing it along, but the red "malfunction" light kept going on! It was only after a clever bit of deduction it appeared to be the case that no, you let the roller proceed at its own pace and you just walk along on it! What could be a greater madness, I ask you? Where in the hell is the exercise???
Yeah, but I bet you could watch television while you pretended to walk on those 2 thousand dollar machines, whereas if you took a walk outside you'd have to look at the world. Besides, who wants to exercise in a posh hotel? Couldn't you hire someone to walk for you while you lied in your room munching on snacks from the minibar that taste 5 times as good because they are 5 times as expensive?
#1107
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1107
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What was I doing in a posh hotel in the first place? That's what I'd like to know!
#1108
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1108
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#1109
1st April 2012
Old 1st April 2012
  #1109
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I did clean out all the shampoos/conditioners from the shower... I mean... I paid for them... didn't I?
#1110
2nd April 2012
Old 2nd April 2012
  #1110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
You still didn't answer the question.
Why is a question about a never going to happen hypothetical so important to you?
Probably because when you argue about real events your message fails.
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