The P2P Solution : Monetize It

[rack gear]

if computers can do anything it's track data and transactions, exceedingly well - to assume that there's now way to calculate how many times an uploaded song has been downloaded/shared is just completely false.

what would be interesting as a point of solution would be to allow sharing, and to allow the sharer and the P2P to make the 30% margin Itunes is getting.

The p2p itself sets the pricing (with the labels/artists) - and then everyone wins - imagine getting paid everytime someone dowloads a song you've uploaded - now that's REAL SHARING!

say:

65% to Labels/Artists
25% to Sharer
10% to P2P

This model would compete w/ Google in valuations in no time.

Imagine monetizing all the p2p activity - in one fell swoop, overnight, one company could overtake Apple... boom. done.

so if a smart p2p developer created a client that logged sales, and automatically paid the sharer and the label their percentages everyone would win.

Every bedroom and computer would be a customized, peer designed, store front...

However I have my doubts this would ever happen as the pro-pirates are just more interested in STEALING shit for FREE than EVER having any intention of paying for something created by HUMAN LABOR... the same HUMAN LABOR that serves you at McDonalds and does open heart surgery... LABOR IS LABOR, and the cost of music is compensation for HUMAN LABOR...

music is not made by corporations, it is made my musicians (unless you're into techno ;-).

[pro]

The Problem with this; then why not just go to iTunes? People use p2p because it is free. I would imagine most do not even have a CC. Other than that, what you are suggesting is an alternative to iTunes store, which exists and is a viable start-up business...

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by pro

The Problem with this; then why not just go to iTunes? People use p2p because it is free. I would imagine most do not even have a CC. Other than that, what you are suggesting is an alternative to iTunes store, which exists and is a viable start-up business...

the difference is this allows financial sharing amongst all parties. I thought that's what we were talking about here, sharing...

and, every user is a sharer and storefront. and, every user makes money, instead of being sued.

you don't think if people could make money sharing music they wouldn't? why not? you actually get to earn money while supporting your favorite artists!

but apparently we're not talking about sharing, we're back to talking about how to get something, for nothing... sad, really. can't argue with "I Want It For Free, Just Because I Do"...

so again - onto solutions with a financial reality... blanket fees and taxes don't work because there's no fair distribution of the revenue.

so in essence we should now return to the conversation of what can be done to eliminate the blatant illegal distribution of copyrighted works that no one has any intention of paying for...

and the "it can't done" argument is nonsense. the are laws, you break them, there are consequences.

just because the technology is one step ahead of the law doesn't mean it will stay that way.

[HobbyCore]

So people will just use another method to get their music "free".

Napster went pay and did that suddenly a bunch of pirates started buying music? Absolutely not. They just found a new, and more efficient, way to do it.

This is the problem at it's core. Creating fancier locks will create more skilled locksmiths.

[Chrislpp]

People are not on P2P because it is fast or better....but because it is free.

If the industry harnassed the P2P protocol with such naivety, thinking people would all flock to it from another P2P which is free and start paying....I think I'd rather see the whole industry burn to the ground rather than see such ignorance.

Illegal downloading has to be cracked down on by governments and ISPs because the RIAA is just looking for fines it can capitalize on.

[HobbyCore]

Originally Posted by Chrislpp

People are not on P2P because it is fast or better....but because it is free.

If the industry harnassed the P2P protocol with such naivety, thinking people would all flock to it from another P2P which is free and start paying....I think I'd rather see the whole industry burn to the ground rather than see such ignorance.

Illegal downloading has to be cracked down on by governments and ISPs because the RIAA is just looking for fines it can capitalize on.

How exactly do you determine what is an "illegal download" then? Even assuming you can determine what the data being sent is, how does one know if it is legit or not?

What about dht, encryption such as MSE, and more specifically split downloads using combination of measures? Even assuming somehow you magically overcome these and other significant hurdles, you still can't beat the sneakernet.


I've written a long explanation of why this idea is completely unfeasible before, and you were present in the thread. I am unsure of why you continue with this naiveté.

[rack gear]

just because you insist there's no solution does not make it so.

in order for everything to be so encrypted that no one knows what it is, how on earth would they be able to search for what they want?

If they can search for what they want, then so can the authorities.

Ultimately anything recognizes as copyrighted gets filtered out.

Audio and Video fingerprinting are already doing this on YouTube. Somehow, with the insane volume of YouTube there is no porn... hmmmm. Also, there is also no music from Warners, try to upload something with a Warners song in it - you can even call it something differnt... it still doesn't get past the gate.

the same technology that makes all this possible, makes it possible to stop it - for both sides, the technology itself is a two way street - therefore, this will be settled in the courts.

Originally Posted by HobbyCore

How exactly do you determine what is an "illegal download" then? Even assuming you can determine what the data being sent is, how does one know if it is legit or not?

What about dht, encryption such as MSE, and more specifically split downloads using combination of measures? Even assuming somehow you magically overcome these and other significant hurdles, you still can't beat the sneakernet.


I've written a long explanation of why this idea is completely unfeasible before, and you were present in the thread. I am unsure of why you continue with this naiveté.

[HobbyCore]

Originally Posted by redvelvetstudios

just because you insist there's no solution does not make it so.

in order for everything to be so encrypted that no one knows what it is, how on earth would they be able to search for what they want?

If they can search for what they want, then so can the authorities.

Ultimately anything recognizes as copyrighted gets filtered out.

Audio and Video fingerprinting are already doing this on YouTube. Somehow, with the insane volume of YouTube there is no porn... hmmmm. Also, there is also no music from Warners, try to upload something with a Warners song in it - you can even call it something differnt... it still doesn't get past the gate.

the same technology that makes all this possible, makes it possible to stop it - for both sides, the technology itself is a two way street - therefore, this will be settled in the courts.

Do you want me to explain this in a simpler manner for you? I don't want to be so presumptuous to assume you have absolutely zero clue what you're talking about, but that's what your post seems to indicate.

I will gladly take my time and explain to you how these technologies work, including citations for my statements, if you wish. I'm quite confident in my knowledge in this area.

[rack gear]

interesting.
and when there is no longer a viable business it will be over.

the playing field will be leveled, and you can listen to everyone in the bedrooms poorly written, poorly performed, poorly recorded songs...

mp3.com was a vast wasteland, as is 99% of soundclick and myspace.

how much "non-invested" music do you listen too?

well, I bet not much, but start cruising those unknown ranks of Soundclick and MySpace, because under your model, that is THE Future of the music industry.

joy... thirteen tons of crap... awesome...

here's a start:
#1 on the Soundclick Alternative Chart Today
MP3 Player SoundClick
(no offense to Rick Gross)

Wow! The future is going to be an awesome place for new music...

Originally Posted by HobbyCore

So people will just use another method to get their music "free".

Napster went pay and did that suddenly a bunch of pirates started buying music? Absolutely not. They just found a new, and more efficient, way to do it.

This is the problem at it's core. Creating fancier locks will create more skilled locksmiths.

[rack gear]

yours is just one opinion.

Originally Posted by HobbyCore

Do you want me to explain this in a simpler manner for you? I don't want to be so presumptuous to assume you have absolutely zero clue what you're talking about, but that's what your post seems to indicate.

I will gladly take my time and explain to you how these technologies work, including citations for my statements, if you wish. I'm quite confident in my knowledge in this area.

[HobbyCore]

Originally Posted by redvelvetstudios

yours is just one opinion.

No, I said I would gladly explain the technology to you, including citation. This is not a matter of opinion. You seem to be too obstinate to understand that your knowledge on the particular subject of peer to peer communities and technology is lacking. I suspect it'd be a waste of my time at this point.

[HobbyCore]

FYI, with a quick browse through my 100% legitimate music collection, I'd estimate about 70% of it is "non-invested". I actively prune my collection once I rip the cds I purchase, and it's still around 90,000 songs.

Soundclick does suck IMO. Myspace is no better... I don't think you're looking in the right places. I find much of my music through online and personal communities and live shows of independents/amateurs. If you want to find good music, in my experience, you have to be a social person regardless if it's major label or diy.

Originally Posted by redvelvetstudios

interesting.
and when there is no longer a viable business it will be over.

the playing field will be leveled, and you can listen to everyone in the bedrooms poorly written, poorly performed, poorly recorded songs...

mp3.com was a vast wasteland, as is 99% of soundclick and myspace.

how much "non-invested" music do you listen too?

well, I bet not much, but start cruising those unknown ranks of Soundclick and MySpace, because under your model, that is THE Future of the music industry.

joy... thirteen tons of crap... awesome...

here's a start:
#1 on the Soundclick Alternative Chart Today
MP3 Player SoundClick
(no offense to Rick Gross)

Wow! The future is going to be an awesome place for new music...

[rack gear]

you would suspect correctly because no matter how informed you may be, I don't believe yours is the only valid opinion.

Originally Posted by HobbyCore

No, I said I would gladly explain the technology to you, including citation. This is not a matter of opinion. You seem to be too obstinate to understand that your knowledge on the particular subject of peer to peer communities and technology is lacking. I suspect it'd be a waste of my time at this point.

[rack gear]

something we can agree upon, well that's a start. so I'd love to know where to look for great legitimate free music. seriously, I would.

I really would like to see what's out there in the din and muck... because really, that's all that is going to be left with when there's no longer a financially sustainable business model.

Originally Posted by HobbyCore

FYI, with a quick browse through my 100% legitimate music collection, I'd estimate about 70% of it is "non-invested". I actively prune my collection once I rip the cds I purchase, and it's still around 90,000 songs.

Soundclick does suck IMO. Myspace is no better... I don't think you're looking in the right places. I find much of my music through online and personal communities and live shows of independents/amateurs. If you want to find good music, in my experience, you have to be a social person regardless if it's major label or diy.

[HobbyCore]

Originally Posted by redvelvetstudios

you would suspect correctly because no matter how informed you may be, I don't believe yours is the only valid opinion.

I'm trying to tell you that IT'S NOT AN OPINION. Technology works a specific way, and there are technologies that are exclusively locked in regards to others.

For instance, it is very simple to take an mp3, encapsulate it within a container with a password and basic encryption (let's just say zip even). This file can be named "First Quarter Sales.zip". How exactly do you propose an isp firstly even knows what the content is, and secondly how to filter it without greatly harming legitimate uses of the format? This is very, very, very basic and could be done clientside, invisible to the user.

Now let's go a step further and send this file over an email protocol. Now the ISP would need to ban a format, a protocol and it STILL doesn't know exactly what was being sent.

To one of the most basic technologies available that every 12 year old knows how to use, in order to stop piracy, you've just destroyed the most popular container container in general computing usage and one of the most widely used protocols. Good job.

Now if we take a step slightly further things become far more complicated and far more dastardly.

It would be relatively simple to just throttle (but not filter) bittorrent, but there are many other protocols available, including currently widely used protocols that are just a week or two of development away from becoming mainstream.

[HobbyCore]

Originally Posted by redvelvetstudios

something we can agree upon, well that's a start. so I'd love to know where to look for great legitimate free music. seriously, I would.

I really would like to see what's out there in the din and muck... because really, that's all that is going to be left with when there's no longer a financially sustainable business model.

You can start by finding various music forums such as harmony-central, kvr, reddit, soundcloud etc... Just watch the WIP sections and listen to stuff. Given a week or two of sorting through some horrid crap you'll find a few decent artists and find where their post their music from which you can branch out.

Simply finding one person, then approaching them in a friendly manner you can find out a lot. Just be cordial and genuine and you'll find a lot of excellent musicians (hobbyists and professionals alike) who gladly share their work freely.

[rack gear]

dude - I get that - but you are not paying attention or reading my posts.

take led zeppelin, put in a zip called "First Quarter Sales.zip", ok - got that. upload and share it. got it.

how does someone looking for led zeppelin know they are actually looking for "First Quarter Sales.zip" instead of led zeppelin? p2p works based on easy search - the easy search is it's failing from a rights point of view.

it can't be broadband and narrow band at the same time.

any system that is easy to use for the end user, on a mass scale, broadcasts it's own weakness. in order for p2p to effective, people, a lot of people, have to be able to find led zeppelin easy.

that weakness can be exploited. whatever mechanism makes it easy for consumers to find led zep burried in "First Quarter Sales.zip", will also allow the authorities to do the same.

the more complicated the cat/mouse game becomes, the less interested consumers are - the best consumer deterrents are first tier - just enough of a pain in the ass, that paying is easier.

it's not about technology, it's a chess game. there are solutions. cat and mouse shit has gone on for years - but once there is a PB ruling, people are gonna think twice.

If TPB doesn't go down, you can bet there will be first tier ISP filtering in the USA soon... Doesn't matter where the servers are, 85%+ of US consumers get thier internet through one of maybe five major ISPs.

When Hollywood goes to Washington, the illegal p2p stuff is over in the USA. Bet on it. It's one thing to talk about album with maybe a $1m budget, it's another to talk about movies with $30m budgets each.

When the shit hits the fan in Hollywood, and those campaign contributions and endorsements stop - you bet there'll be a change.

Washington will legislate that is the ISPs responsibility to protect copyright.

one thing I really do not understand in these conversations with you is why you have such a high investment in p2p systems. my investment in the music industry is my liveliyhood, so I'd say this is important to me.

why do you care so much about defending the technology behind the illegal free distribution of copyrighted music? what's in it for you?

I don't think anyone here is arguing about technology, we're arguing about copyright management. You want to have a technology debate in the middle of a copyright debate and claim you are misunderstood.

Originally Posted by HobbyCore

I'm trying to tell you that IT'S NOT AN OPINION. Technology works a specific way, and there are technologies that are exclusively locked in regards to others.

For instance, it is very simple to take an mp3, encapsulate it within a container with a password and basic encryption (let's just say zip even). This file can be named "First Quarter Sales.zip". How exactly do you propose an isp firstly even knows what the content is, and secondly how to filter it without greatly harming legitimate uses of the format? This is very, very, very basic and could be done clientside, invisible to the user.

Now let's go a step further and send this file over an email protocol. Now the ISP would need to ban a format, a protocol and it STILL doesn't know exactly what was being sent.

To one of the most basic technologies available that every 12 year old knows how to use, in order to stop piracy, you've just destroyed the most popular container container in general computing usage and one of the most widely used protocols. Good job.

Now if we take a step slightly further things become far more complicated and far more dastardly.

It would be relatively simple to just throttle (but not filter) bittorrent, but there are many other protocols available, including currently widely used protocols that are just a week or two of development away from becoming mainstream.

[HobbyCore]

This is the the nth time you've responded to me by purposely reframing my statements in a negative manner, then proceeding to mock me. I'm done speaking with you.

[rack gear]

that's cool. I'm glad that you enjoy doing that. it sounds like an awesome and rewarding use of your time.

I don't think that's a model for the future of the music business - what you are describing, for better or worst, is a post music industry environment.

What I'd love to see is your vision of the future of the music industry, with a sustainable revenue model that compensates the labor of the copyright creators, and holders.

Originally Posted by HobbyCore

You can start by finding various music forums such as harmony-central, kvr, reddit, soundcloud etc... Just watch the WIP sections and listen to stuff. Given a week or two of sorting through some horrid crap you'll find a few decent artists and find where their post their music from which you can branch out.

Simply finding one person, then approaching them in a friendly manner you can find out a lot. Just be cordial and genuine and you'll find a lot of excellent musicians (hobbyists and professionals alike) who gladly share their work freely.

[rack gear]

really? I'm not seeing that. I'm just not agreeing with you.

Originally Posted by HobbyCore

This is the the nth time you've responded to me by purposely reframing my statements in a negative manner, then proceeding to mock me. I'm done speaking with you.

[johnnysilas]

Digital Media Copyright Protection & Authorization Plan

SUMMARY
- Restore and Protect the rights of all entertainment professionals.
- Secure the Digital Entertainment Marketplace by Strictly Regulating ALL Digital Media Players.
- Regulate Playback, Distribution, and Duplication of ALL copyrighted media files.
The worst enemy of the creators and sellers of contemporary music, movies, and other digital media are programs like iTunes Media Player, Windows Media player, and Quick Time Media Player. These programs and others like them afford anyone with a computer and an Internet connection the power of unlimited and unauthorized reproduction, duplication, and distribution of copyrighted digital media files. The current plight of the recording and movie industries does not lie with the issue of “illegal downloading” per se; the real problem is UNAUTHORIZED REPRODUCTION. Downloading files onto a computer from Limewire, or any of the widely known Bit Torrent sites, is a relatively harmless act; it is simply a transfer of numeric values from one storage medium to another, not unlike “buffering”. It could be argued that downloading a file does not even violate copyright law. Where the actual copyright infringement occurs is when those files are imported into iTunes (Windows Media Player, QuickTime…take your pick, I’ll use iTunes for demonstration purposes) and automatically, with no restriction or any type of security check, are REPRODUCED and available to be copied and redistributed without limitation or consequence. These media players have essentially given away every song and movie ever made, for free, forever. No matter how much you try and regulate the ISPs, the cat is out of the bag, right?! Wrong…all the technology needed to put an end to this has already been created. Not only can the problem be stopped, but all those files that have been “stolen” could be recovered and the artists and producers responsible for them can be retroactively compensated.

DESCRIPTION
The rapid advancement of computers and Internet technology has given great power to billions of people, and fueled the creation of countless pieces of amazing software. So far this power has been knowingly misused by consumers to the detriment of not only the recording and movie industries of the world, but has also contributed, in some way, to the current economic crisis. Tough new laws must be put in place to regulate the unauthorized reproduction of copyrighted digital media files by underdeveloped and unregulated digital media players such as iTunes MP and Windows Media Player. What is needed is a “Central Online Media Database” that tracks and archives every single digital media file (DMF) purchase (internationally). All digital media players must be reprogrammed and updated with strict authorization limitation and security features.
One of the most revolutionary and exciting new Internet technologies is a new system of “tagging” which is just now being incorporated into iTunes. It is an adaptation of the iTunes “Genius” software. A similar system exists in a free iPhone App called Shazam. “Shazam” records an audio sample of a song that is playing (in a bar or supermarket for example) and automatically, within seconds, compares this sample with all known or “published” sound recordings available in the online music marketplace. Each audio file has a uniquely identifiable waveform or “fingerprint”. After this scanning process, the software tells you what the song is called, who the artist is, and where it is currently available to be purchased online. This waveform recognition technology will be the basis of a new system that will solve most, if not all of the piracy problems facing the recording and movie industries of today. Imagine one day, after a routine update of your iTunes software, you open up iTunes, but instead of automatically opening as usual, you are asked to input your iTunes login information. Having a unique user ID/account linked to the consumer’s DMF library and authorization codes is critical. After which, your library is automatically scanned (“Shazam”/”Genius” style file recognition) you are informed that you currently have 1278 songs and 24 movies files in your iTunes library that are in potential violation of Digital Media Copyright Protection Law. These unauthorized files will receive a “red-light” status. All previously purchased “legal” files will receive a Digital Media Authorization Codes (DMAC), a “green-light” status and will be cleared for reproduction (playback only). What has just happened is iTunes has compared all the unique “fingerprints” of your digital media files with all published DMFs and has separated your authorized/purchased files from your unauthorized files. Once this initial scanning and authorization/de-authorization process has occurred, all your account information will be saved and updated in iTunes as well as in your newly created online account (“MyTunes.com”, just an idea). The amount of copies issued, duplication capabilities, and duration of “authorized reproduction” will be at the discretion of the artist and/or label. This system would operate much like the authorization process currently in place by the “Waves”, “Digidesign” and “Celemony” software companies. These companies require authorization codes to be constantly present during the use of their software. This relatively new system has essentially made it impossible for consumers to use pirated software.
Once a Digital Media Protection System is in place all “Old” DMFs (digital archives of previously purchased CDs) or previously downloaded “File Share Media” will eventually become potential sales. These “Old” files will simply be “red-lighted” or deactivated, since there is no record of purchase, and will no longer be available for reproduction. At any point the user will be able to select a red-lighted (unauthorized) file, and be automatically directed to iTunes/Rhapsody/Napster, or any other approved or “legal” online music store to purchase the corresponding authorization codes (DMACs) for those files. Once the user has obtained the DMACs for this previously downloaded media, those files will be "green lighted" instantly and be available for reproduction without the need of repeat downloading, although the option to download "fresh files" will be available. All approved online music stores will integrate a universal authorization code system, and contribute all future and past records of purchased digital media files to the “Central Online Media Database”. These records of purchase will be linked to the unique fingerprint of the purchased DMF. All new versions of iTunes and Windows Media Player etc., under penalty of strict new Digital Media Copyright Protection Laws, will be updated with this Digital Media Copyright Protection And Authorization System. Eventually after time and planned obsolescence has done it's job, all (operational) computers will have implemented this system through mandatory software updates (iTunes already does this), and this current trend of rampant unchecked copyright infringement, due to unregulated and unauthorized reproduction of copyrighted digital media files, will be a thing of the past. In the future a consumer’s entire music library will be able to be stored on one very small and portable device, accessible anywhere at anytime through the integration of “thumb drive” technology and mobile access to “Digital Media Authorization Codes”. In regard to working professionals in the field of audio and movie production, “in-production” files will not be affected by this system. Upon importing “in-production” files will be scanned, just like all other files, and compared with all DMF fingerprints currently available on the market, when they are cleared and approved as being unique and “unpublished” works under production by the artist and/or label, they will be authorized for reproduction without limitation (playback and duplication, i.e. CDs). Upon the date of these previously “in-production” files being published, the “legal” digital media player will inform the professional that the files have been published and are now available for purchase. If the artist/label wishes to provide any consumer with an authorization that is free of charge, that will be made possible by each person having a unique user ID/ account (like myspace). The artist will have the power to grant free authorization codes to whom ever the want.
The user will not need to be continuously connected to the Internet to enjoy listening to their music or watching their movies. When iTunes is opened and an Internet connection is not detected, the user will be able to access all previously “green-lighted” files in their library. All imported files (CD or otherwise) will be automatically “red-lighted” if an Internet connection is not detected. Once the user connects to there online account “MyTunes.com”, these imported files will be scanned and appropriately accessed. This verification process is vital for ensuring and protecting the rights of the artist and label. If the imported file is not a “published” and "copyrighted" work available for purchase in the online marketplace, it will be deemed an original "independent" or “in-production” work and will be "green-lighted" for playback and duplication on all formats. If/and when that recording is "published" and becomes available online, the preauthorized file will be rescanned and "reassessed" once the user signs in to there online account. The Digital Media Protection And Authorization System will scan the users library each time they sign into their online account.
Eventually this software must be incorporated into Mac and Windows operating systems.
Current programs that can be used as models for the creation of this new Universal Digital Media Copyright Protection System
iTunes (online purchasing of digital media files)
iTunes “Genius”
Shazam iPhone
Myspace
Waves and Celemony authorization processes

[mobius.media]

Originally Posted by HobbyCore

So people will just use another method to get their music "free".

Napster went pay and did that suddenly a bunch of pirates started buying music? Absolutely not. They just found a new, and more efficient, way to do it.

This is the problem at it's core. Creating fancier locks will create more skilled locksmiths.

Still with this nonsense?

Tell me then, where are the new, more efficient technologies to replace centralized torrenting, and how are they any different from the run down and irrelevant decentralized limewire?

It's not happening.