Moby: The RIAA Needs to be Disbanded

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by Arkitekt

He's against the harsh actions of RIAA, he never said he didn't want to make money, understandably.

to be clear - the RIAA didn't take harsh actions - they only sought to enforce the law - unfortunately, copyright law is harsh...

[Bob Olhsson]

The RIAA has had a standing offer to settle with this chick for 5 grand that they say is still on the table. I don't know what her problem is but she insists on fighting and has lost bigger at every turn.

She's either really stupid or else somebody is trying to use her case as a publicity stunt. Folks who talk about how unfair the RIAA is really don't know what they are talking about.

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

The RIAA used to be run by a woman who was an expert in first amendment rights because they saw protecting an artist's right to free speech as their principal role as an industry lobbyist. Unfortunately several laws slipped through the cracks that let computer manufacturers and internet service providers completely off the hook on intellectual property issues.

By the time the RIAA realized we had a big problem, a great deal of the ability to prosecute the middle-men who profit from file looting had been lost. Now that intellectual property looting is affecting areas beyond music, the laws in the U.S. can be expected to change dramatically because it no longer just affects the left wing wacko musicians many right wingers would just as soon see starve.

This is the best thread on GS--by far!

[NeoVXR]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

....Now that intellectual property looting is affecting areas beyond music, the laws in the U.S. can be expected to change dramatically because it no longer just affects the left wing wacko musicians many right wingers would just as soon see starve.

a question please,
what sectors of production and commerce will be affected that aren't yet?
illegal copying of software is older than digital sharing of music..
the other axis I know is 3rd world copycat industry, including textiles, vs centralist control of agriculture and chemical production, by the likes of monsanto.

---
when the product can be copied with almost zero cost (by the manufacturer themselves) then the cost of the initial invention, like lab research or studio time, per unit will break down to zero, or the raw internet traffic cost.
this sentence is just to show there is a physical limit in the buying force.
I am attacking the linear calculation here. it has been causing overproduction and deflation of distributed music, also because of a general false paradigm with immaterial goods, especially entertainment.

download sales 1000 units of a song = 1000 bucks
100M units should be 100M bucks ? I don't think so.
we clearly have to respect the situation that every kid can have 20000 songs in her ipod. still there will be no USE for these songs. no one can listen more than 240 of 3-minute songs in a half day = 12 hours of sonic environment.

a reasonable paradigm of an economy can ONLY be about USE of a product, and benefit for the customer.
the benefit to the customer is the only justifyable reason to give money to the vendor or producer.
therefor we can never in a sane state charge the kid for 20000 songs because no use can take place for these immaterial collections that did cost zero (in above calculation that is based on linear pricing and infinite digital production)

I want to point out the contradiction.
solutions IMHO may walk into 2 directions.
a) logarithmic and deferred pricing models, e.g. 1 billion units for 1M bucks.
the price will break down within a year, to a tiny fraction of the initial. for reasons of stability, accounting is deferred, and the price will be lower than told in the first offer, but there is a layer of mitigating redstribution between the low-price and high-price units. the result will be activated buying force plus legit 20000 songs in the ipod, but most are a bit older.
b) micropayment for listening time only, no matter what is sitting on the harddisk or quantum bubble memory or whatever we will have.
shouldn't the song I listen to for 300 times make more buck than the other I am fed up with after 3 times?

hunting after what ever immaterial bits and bytes are flying around, is totally useless, and directed by a tragically false paradigm of control of owership.
only reasonable and successful use of any good, and the more if immaterial, can create sustainable buying force.

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by NeoVXR

a reasonable paradigm of an economy can ONLY be about USE of a product, and benefit for the customer.
the benefit to the customer is the only justifyable reason to give money to the vendor or producer.

there's so much misinformation and lack of logic in this post that I'm just going to comment on this one part now. Total BS.

I own three cars, I can only drive one at a time. My wife has probably, I dunno - like maybe, 200 pairs of shoes - she can only wear one at a time.

historically - music lovers have amassed huge personal music libraries, which they took pride investing in - regardless to how much they could listen to in a single sitting, a single day or a single lifetime.

I'm sorry - but if someone wants 20,000 songs - they should pay $20,000 for them. This is the problem - one of a million excuses to justify having something without any intention of paying for it.

That, in simple terms, is called stealing.

Originally Posted by NeoVXR

therefor we can never in a sane state charge the kid for 20,000 songs because no use can take place for these immaterial collections that did cost zero (in above calculation that is based on linear pricing and infinite digital production)

Cost Zero? Really Zero? OK man - here's Zero Cost Music:
SoundClick - Free MP3 music download and much, much more.
knock yourself out with all the Zero Cost Music you want...

This however is NOT zero cost music:
iTunes Store - Michael Jackson - The Essential Michael Jackson - Thriller

do you see the difference? do hear the difference. Knock yourself out with all the LEGAL zero cost music you want. Just don't steal the good stuff that you're not willing to pay for... ok? Deal?

see here's the thing - as has been said many times over...

Bits are cheap, LABOR is not. When you buy music your are buying HUMAN LABOR. Human Labor is the production costs. Professional musicians, producers, engineers, etc all make their living from the sale of recorded music. Do you understand this is about human labor?

No consumer ever paid the full cost of music for the distribution container (CD, Cassette, Vinyl, 8-Track, Etc). One would hope the smallest part of the cost is the container - otherwise, you'd be buying EMPTY CONTAINERS with No Music In Them...

Do you understand that?

We're talking about People and Labor, not bits and manufacturing...

[NeoVXR]

I need not answer if someone twists material goods with immaterial.
that's an insult to a healthy brain.

anyway, the only material action that is a counterpart to the material labor for the make of music is LISTENING. this you may find a way to charge.
charging for bytes is indeed moronic.

can you already copy cars for the cost of bytes?
or do you work EVERY time to make a car and sell? every time a ton of metal - no?

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by NeoVXR

shouldn't the song I listen to for 300 times make more buck than the other I am fed up with after 3 times?

So if I want to drive a Ferrari, one day a year, I don't have to pay as much as the person who drives it all year long?

AWESOME! Try that at the Ferrari dealership and tell how that goes...

You are fishing in a lake of denial from a boat of rationalization.

[NeoVXR]

I think I'll see you sell ferraris soon..
but would buy rather a mazda..

the ferrari would cost me 1/365 for one day,
of course the remainder would pay the 364 guys who have it on the other days LOL

[Volodia]

Originally Posted by NeoVXR

I need not answer if someone twists material goods with immaterial.
that's an insult to a healthy brain.

anyway, the only material action that is a counterpart to the material labor for the make of music is LISTENING. this you may find a way to charge.
charging for bytes is indeed moronic.

can you already copy cars for the cost of bytes?
or do you work EVERY time to make a car and sell? every time a ton of metal - no?

Look at it this way . Suppose I'm smuggling my way inside a movie theatre , I don't steal any physical good , the movie would have been played anyway even if I had not been here , still it's illegal .

The problem in music is that most of the people in the theatre entered illegally . You're proposing to make them pay when they come out , only if they appreciated the movie .It can't work
. There are plenty of legal ways to listen to music before buying it . This argument doesn't hold a candle .

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by NeoVXR

I need not answer if someone twists material goods with immaterial. that's an insult to a healthy brain.

so a "healthy" brain is the one the rationalizes stealing human labor? Interesting? No regard for copyright or IP either... very healthy...

Originally Posted by NeoVXR

anyway, the only material action that is a counterpart to the material labor for the make of music is LISTENING.

Eh? So it IS material when you listen to it, but not when you copy it? Uh huh. Interesting logic again...

Originally Posted by NeoVXR

this you may find a way to charge. charging for bytes is indeed moronic.

something we can agree upon - we're not charging for bytes! we're charging for the human labor. the bytes are how the labor is distributed and compensated...

sooo, if we're going to have a real conversation, please educate yourself.

this is pretty easy to follow - it's for college students at UCLA:
Intellectual Property Law: Why Should I Care?

and this from Wikipedia on Intellectual_Property
Intellectual property - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Economists estimate that two-thirds of the value of large businesses in the U.S. can be traced to intangible assets. Industries which rely on IP protections are estimated to produce 72 percent more value per added employee than non-IP industries.[5] A joint research project of the WIPO and the United Nations University measuring the impact of IP systems on six Asian countries found "a positive correlation between the strengthening of the IP system and subsequent economic growth." [6]

Here's FAIR USE. You can read more about it here:
Fair use - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the factors to be considered in fair use shall include:

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

However - it stops being fair use when you make unlimited illegal copies and distribute them globally and indiscriminately. This is why the RIAA is going after UPLOADERS and not DOWNLOADERS - the woman in Ohio was "sharing" - ie, illegally copying and distributing 1,700 Songs to the whole world.

This is a lot different than an "individual use". Fair Use of File Sharing is the basis of the defense in the current Tenebaum case, read more here:
DoJ supports RIAA in Sony v. Tenenbaum three-ring circus - Ars Technica

I'm open to a real educated conversation and not just dorm room philosophy.

again - nothing against FREE MUSIC, get all you want here:
SoundClick - Free MP3 music download and much, much more.

just don't STEAL the stuff that's not for free. if your argument about music is true, you should be very satisfied with all of the FREE MUSIC offered at
SoundClick - Free MP3 music download and much, much more.

Matter of fact, I'd love to get links to your favorite Top10 Free Artists on Soundclick!

[NeoVXR]

we won't meet if not on macroscopic level.
these incremental arguments have no substance but an outdated legal system.
materially will fail and have begun to.

there is overproduction and overspending, and spoiling of buying force on luxury goods like the insane transformers thing. it sucks in masses of worthy productivity and buying force for ... what?!
probably the children will have the cheapest fast food to affort that ticket.

we are running into problems of energy, liquidity (failed trust in reasonable spending), and eventually food.
soon we'll have 5 licensed propaganda artists and everyone else has to present the open hat and I will throw in perhaps 5 bucks after he made me shed tears with his voice.

that's about the current direction.
but I am pleading to change it to something sustainable where success of entertainment work is measured on realtime benefit.

----
>>Economists estimate that two-thirds of the value of large businesses in the U.S. can be traced to intangible assets. <<

this is the sickest thing that can ever happen to a civilisation, and to heal it would require a "complex" currency with real and imaginary parts, like the vector system for computing electrodynamics.

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by NeoVXR

we won't meet if not on macroscopic level.
these incremental arguments have no substance

Hmmm. So I guess you're not much into reading or understanding Copyright or Intellectual Property, or the protection of human labor? Ah, ok - not much more to talk about here...

Originally Posted by NeoVXR

but an outdated legal system.materially will fail and have begun to.

Sooooo I'm guessing you didn't happen to hear about the Pirate Bay then? Seriously?

So I guess because it's not possible for you to make any money making music, than no else is allowed to either? Well, that's ok - you should really check out soundclick - because if you're right - that's all you'll be listening to in a decade, enjoy:
SoundClick - Free MP3 music download and much, much more.

I love how non-professional, non-industry people can just decide to rationalize their blatant theft of music and labor by re-imagining the industry... that's very convenient...

[NeoVXR]

Originally Posted by redvelvetstudios

Eh? So it IS material when you listen to it, but not when you copy it? Uh huh. Interesting logic again...

exactly.

this we need to understand, on the way to a better solution for charging.

when I listen, it has an influence on my ear drum and soul. physical impact. on me. this is worth to pay for.
the physical CD or much better vinyl has also some value because I can hold it in my hand, read th booklet etc. (and there is not yet a zero point replicator machine in my home that can make me another if I break it.)

[NeoVXR]

Originally Posted by redvelvetstudios

Sooooo I'm guessing you didn't happen to hear about the Pirate Bay then? Seriously?

well perhaps the new colonial "soft" system will enforce its will, once again, and as usual we see the democracy of a smaller country being bought by the lobbies and dumbed by the demagogues. sweden did not want to go this way. it took a long time and huge coercion.

you can only use this argument after there is proof (one later day perhaps?) that the reaction of the global IP system has brought the alleged damage figures back into the pockets of the industry.
I mean this comparison in dynamic way (delta) - entertainment sales before the lock down, and after, with all serious scrutiny in the statistical research.

it is going to be a failure to humanity.
but it is not over.
the way TPB was abused is bad, and there must be a better way to redistribute content and income to the creators.
but not by enforcing the protestant world view of everyone is evil from the core, and has to be controlled strictly. we'll see what sorrow we will earn by this, but we have seen nothing yet, still after two world wars.

you said already, in terms of monetary value, one third consisting of the physical economy has to feed two thirds of virtual stuff. that's not gonna happen during a longer time. not in a capitalist system that does not share, and does redistribute only on mercy or coercion of the weaker by the stronger.

the next war will about IP, and between physical and immaterial economic sectors, and it will kill probably a hundred million people...
now enjoy being on the side of the winners.

Originally Posted by redvelvetstudios

This however is NOT zero cost music:
iTunes Store - Michael Jackson - The Essential Michael Jackson - Thriller

I ask everyone to consider my perception about this.
the way this guy had to die, and his at least 10 years of agony, and what the real activity was, after the fact, takes out or devalues eventually all moral value and positive attempt in his work.
will officials take away my children, when I am a drug addict with extra strange behaviour?
will I be allowed to have my children manufactured and delivered on contract?
will I be allowed to have children stay overnight in my house, that are not relatives or close friends? add to this a known environment of people who bring me drugs and encourage me to prepare for 50 shows in spite of my physical catastrophe. realm of greed and irresponsibility.
IT IS THE SAME PERSON!
there is NO excuse for this.

it is a sign of a gigantic moral failure in the industry and media. this means in the end the ruling part of society.
but of course the chicken hawks will justify this wrecklessness with the illegal reproduction and use of protected content, including "thriller".

what RIAA do protect is a babylonic tower of drug addicts who have negative impact on children and youth.
by weird example and by getting away with it.
youth won't spend any consideration on going over jordan with 50 yrs.
they want their sexy paradise now, with or without the apes.


I apologie to everyone who loves music.
I have been on stage only a few hundred times.
but since then I have learned to consider the deeper substance of what does fascinate me, and why. in spite of quality, size and budget, I for me have to rule out thriller and the transformers...

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by NeoVXR

exactly.
this we need to understand, on the way to a better solution for charging.

when I listen, it has an influence on my ear drum and soul. physical impact. on me. this is worth to pay for.
the physical CD or much better vinyl has also some value because I can hold it in my hand, read th booklet etc. (and there is not yet a zero point replicator machine in my home that can make me another if I break it.)

Well - then under that logic why do I have to pay for ANYTHING while I'm NOT using it? It's magical thinking, not a solution.

Should I only have to pay for ProTools when I'm actually using it? What about Photoshop? What about TV? What about anything?

There is no logical basis for this argument, other than the fact that you just simply are unwilling to pay for music.

See - once you pay for something, you can use it as often or as little as you please - from Cars to Music...

Music Streaming and Subscription sites already exist. They're not really generating any revenue. So I'm not seeing your solution...

[rack gear]

honestly man - I have no idea what you are saying. but I'll try to distill what I'm getting so far:

a) The problem with the world is the immoral, drug addict supporting entertainment industry, so let it burn...

b) As long as you can blame the entertainment industry for the world's problems, it's OK for you to steal music

c) you only want to pay for music in a prorated share for the actual time you spend listening to it?

How does that formula work? Who monitors? How? Cell phones I guess.

Huge technological hurdles here to implement but - If a song is $1 do you pay .10 everytime you listen to it?

So if you listen to it ten times, it's $1 but if you listen to it 100 times it's $10? I don't think people will go for that.

So what is "fair" and who decides? And if you don't like what is decided as "fair" then you're back to stealing... right?

Cause right now you don't like what is "fair" so that makes stealing OK?

Am I getting this right so far?

I think you're Buddhist, or at least your homepage is... Dood, chop wood carry water... Change yourself, change the world...

How does stealing labor benefit anyone?

Originally Posted by NeoVXR

it is a sign of a gigantic moral failure in the industry and media. this means in the end the ruling part of society.

but of course the chicken hawks will justify this wrecklessness with the illegal reproduction and use of protected content, including "thriller".

what RIAA do protect is a babylonic tower of drug addicts who have negative impact on children and youth.

but since then I have learned to consider the deeper substance of what does fascinate me, and why. in spite of quality, size and budget, I for me have to rule out thriller and the transformers...

[NeoVXR]

naturally, music and movie (+ game SW) will shift to pay per use, and ths shift has assumed speed already.
this has little to do with the use of cars or operative software.

Association fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

your assumptions about me are not by good will,
and you seem to perceive buddhists as enemies which tells more about you than about me.
bwaha I had so forgotten this homepage entry, it was just an invitation into a very different world, and I'm happy to stumble upon it this way again! : Myanmar Protest :

you twist the "world" with the entertainment industry and then blame me of this.

addendum: I have no ipod, no dvd collection and no cell phone.. LOL - I seem to be a luddite!


but for this time everything has been said to display the picture I am seeing.

[EddieTheRed]

Originally Posted by redvelvetstudios

So if I want to drive a Ferrari, one day a year, I don't have to pay as much as the person who drives it all year long?

AWESOME! Try that at the Ferrari dealership and tell how that goes...

Over here they'd give you a free 24 hour test drive.

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by NeoVXR

you twist the "world" with the entertainment industry and then blame me of this.

I actually think this says more about you than me... I don't believe the entertainment industry is twisting anything.

I'd love to see what "twisted" entertainment you have on your ipod and dvd collection. it's all part of the same system. all of it. the same system that creates michael jackson and transformers is most likely responsible for the same entertainment you consume...

everything in the world, EVERYTHING, every social injustice, every TV show, every pop song, every movie, every WRONG, every RIGHT, every brutality, war, poverty, and love... EVERYTHING...

is a outward manifestation of a shared consciousness.

the reason we have hunger is not because there is not enough food, it is because we do not place value on feeding everyone. the reason we have poverty is not because there is not enough money or resources, it is because we do not have this value in our consciousness.

the only true, real and profound change in the world comes internally.

truly - change yourself, change the world.

and, don't steal music (or anything else). it is a slippy slope of rationalization that is the undoing of many...

A thieves consciousness does not make the world a better place...

[rack gear]

I'm moving, send me the address!

Originally Posted by EddieTheRed

Over here they'd give you a free 24 hour test drive.