Moby: The RIAA Needs to be Disbanded

[drBill]

Originally Posted by XHipHop

You are such a shill and so anti-artist that you keep perpetrating the myth that "songwriters, studio musicians, producers, etc. " will get raped.

WRONG.

You can now pass go and collect $200.

Now you're starting to piss me off. You've called me a shill twice now. That is beyond insulting to me. All because I disagree with your accessment of the situation.

You apparently have no idea of the world that I live in. I'm in LA dawg, the music capitol of the world. I've been able to survive, but in surviving, I've had to watch COUNTLESS talented musicians, writers, producers, engineers, etc. who have dedicated their life to the craft of their instrument, to their writing, to their production skills, etc., one by one loose their health insurance, some thier homes, others their life savings - only to fold it up and call it a day because they can't earn a living anymore. Due primarily to music piracy and the collapse of the industry that provides them (the pirates) fodder for their little pirate games.

You are one arrogant SOB. How about you post up a link to your website or maybe your credits?

No?

I thought you wouldn't.

Now, I'm going to stop feeding the REAL troll. YOU. You'll have to find crisso or someone else to insult and argue with pirateboy.

[XHipHop]

My album comes out the first week of August. I'll email you a link to the torrent.

And i'm not sure what credits have to do with this argument.

The people that are losing their jobs and wages are losing it because they are still a part of the old system which is failing, no?

The fact that you see what is happening to them further enforces that you need to join us, brother.

[Sounds Great]

How about we take away all of Moby's money, cars, houses, etc. and tell him if he wishes to make a living, he will have to find another way? Music will be just for fun as it will all be distributed to the masses for free.

What do you say, Moby?

[ThetaAlpha970]

@XHiphop: Some here probably won't watch the videos, so here goes...

@everyone:
The model being suggested today claims that if you Connect with Fans and give them a Reason to Buy your product, you will make money. Another important thing he said was that people aren't "selling" music anymore...music is the content that enables the connection with fans.

CwF + RtB=$$$

So maybe the right direction looks like...

The few Nashville songwriters I know should probably focus on performing their own songs. They sound much more honest (and often better) to me whenever they do anyways.

Studio musicians should probably think about starting a band. Or backing solo artists on a tour.

The producers will need to know how to engineer records, and help develop the artist's sound in a way that helps them connect with fans. A quality recording still creates value today, and not everyone has access to those means.

Who knows...the main point is that the Internet breaks the barrier between the artist and the fan. "Piracy" is an acceptable and inevitable means of marketing. For everyone that outright "steals," (if it's any good), or "shares", the idea is that the content will be passed along until someone feels connected enough to buy into the artist themselves.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by ThetaAlpha970

@XHiphop: Some here probably won't watch the videos, so here goes...

The model being put forth today suggests that if you Connect with Fans and give them a Reason to Buy your product, you will make money. Another important thing he said was that people aren't "selling" music anymore...music is the content that enables the connection with fans.

CwF + RtB=$$$

So maybe the right direction looks like...

The few Nashville songwriters I know should probably focus on performing their own songs. They sound much more honest (and often better) to me whenever they do anyways.

Studio musicians should probably think about starting a band. Or backing solo artists on a tour.

The producers will need to know how to engineer records, and help develop the artist's sound in a way that helps them connect with fans. A quality recording still creates value today, and not everyone has access to those means.

Who knows...the main point is that the Internet breaks the barrier between the artist and the fan. "Piracy" is an acceptable and inevitable means of marketing. For everyone that outright "steals," (if it's any good), or "shares", the idea is that the content will be passed along until someone feels connected enough to buy into the artist themselves.

Hahahaha.


You apparently don't know much about the real world, and human nature.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by ThetaAlpha970

The model being suggested today suggests that if you Connect with Fans and give them a Reason to Buy your product, you will make money.

What does John Doe do? He has no fans in his back pocket. He's made his first album in his bedroom and is looking for a career in music.
In short, I'm wondering how debut artists will fair in the fan focussed environment compared to the likes of Moby and Radiohead - who of course built up a HUGE fanbase under the current music industry model.

Another important thing he said was that people aren't "selling" music anymore...music is the content that enables the connection with fans.

Wow, that's actually pretty devastating.
I'm a musician, I make music. What would you have me do instead?

Studio musicians should probably think about starting a band. Or backing solo artists on a tour.

Maybe, but this goes back to an experimental theory.
That suddenly launching double or triple the amount of tours this summer will increase artist revenue, and not spread live income around incredibly thinly and (likely in my experience) lead to concert fatigue whereby fans opt out of most shows.

[ThetaAlpha970]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

Hahahaha.


You apparently don't know much about the real world, and human nature.

I don't have absolute answers for others, true. You should watch those videos posted on Topspin, and get back to me then. As for human nature, I have to say piracy feels more like sharing than stealing, for sure.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by ThetaAlpha970

As for human nature, I have to say piracy feels more like sharing than stealing, for sure.

I suppose that depends if you are the one making the music, or sharing it.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by ThetaAlpha970

You should watch those videos posted on Topspin, and get back to me then.

i'll applaud them if they start to make waves with a new industry model.
In terms of the videos, wow it's so dry and uninspiring watch marketing men drone on about money without any music, or musicians involved.

As for human nature, I have to say piracy feels more like sharing than stealing, for sure.

You can 'feel' what you want, but it's hard to 'share' something if the other party doesn't want to 'share' it with you.
This is where the unreality of the pirate argument is based.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by ThetaAlpha970

You should watch those videos posted on Topspin, and get back to me then.

I would except that they were recommended by Xhiphop, so I'm sure they would only piss me off, and X has fulfilled my quota of pissedoffedness for today.....

Maybe someday...

Originally Posted by ThetaAlpha970

As for human nature, I have to say piracy feels more like sharing than stealing, for sure.

Well that's obvious. You're on the stealing side. I wouldn't expect you TO feel any different.

I however, am on the ARTISTS side. The PRODUCER'S side. The ENGINEER'S side. The SONGWRITERS side. The STUDIO MUSICIANS side. The ARTIST MANAGEMENT side. The ARRANGER'S side. And on and on.

You know, those people who have DEDICATED their lives to it, and have been successful at it because they were actually TALENTED and like cream, rose to the top of their game while working their collective asses off to get there.

Not the side of someone who bought a MBox, did and album in their basement and now sees themselves as an "ARTIST" selling T-Shirts in the future to make money. You know exactly who I'm talking about.

[XHipHop]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

I suppose that depends if you are the one making the music, or sharing it.

is your plan to limit your potential fanbase to those who make music?

i'm trying to market to the other 99% of the population. that's just me. they are the consumers.

[ThetaAlpha970]

Originally Posted by chrisso

What does John Doe do? He has no fans in his back pocket. He's made his first album in his bedroom and is looking for a career in music.
In short, I'm wondering how debut artists will fair in the fan focussed environment compared to the likes of Moby and Radiohead - who of course built up a HUGE fanbase under the current music industry model.

Well, hopefully John Doe will release some good songs, recorded well. He will release them in some form that creates value, alongside the free distribution channels that so many of us are currently resisting. I think the new model assumes not everyone will pay.

Originally Posted by chrisso

Wow, that's actually pretty devastating.
I'm a musician, I make music. What would you have me do instead?

It is extremely devastating if you are used to the old way of things. Or have made a decent income from it and feel like your world is falling apart. I do sympathize.

Originally Posted by chrisso

Maybe, but this goes back to an experimental theory.
That suddenly launching double or triple the amount of tours this summer will increase artist revenue, and not spread live income around incredibly thinly and (likely in my experience) lead to concert fatigue whereby fans opt out of most shows.

It is all experimental at this point. But that's also the exciting thing. Artists and musicians no longer have to wait around for whoever likes their music to show up. The Internet provides unprecedented opportunities to build solid relationships with potential fans through our content, not by our content. In a way, bands like the Grateful Dead have been doing this for years.

[XHipHop]

Originally Posted by drBill

I would except that they were recommended by Xhiphop, so I'm sure they would only piss me off, and X has fulfilled my quota of pissedoffedness for today.....

Maybe someday...





Well that's obvious. You're on the stealing side. I wouldn't expect you TO feel any different.

I however, am on the ARTISTS side. The PRODUCER'S side. The ENGINEER'S side. The SONGWRITERS side. The STUDIO MUSICIANS side. The ARTIST MANAGEMENT side. The ARRANGER'S side. And on and on.

You know, those people who have DEDICATED their lives to it, and have been successful at it because they worked their collective asses off.

Not the side of someone who bought a MBox, did and album in their basement and now sees themselves as an "ARTIST" selling T-Shirts in the future to make money. You know exactly who I'm talking about.

You're unwilling to learn about new ways to make money because _I_ piss you off? do you know how ridiculous that sounds?

You obviously have free time beause you are on here arguing day in and day out. Put them on in the background.

[XHipHop]

Originally Posted by chrisso

i'll applaud them if they start to make waves with a new industry model.
In terms of the videos, wow it's so dry and uninspiring watch marketing men drone on about money without any music, or musicians involved.



You can 'feel' what you want, but it's hard to 'share' something if the other party doesn't want to 'share' it with you.
This is where the unreality of the pirate argument is based.

So chrisso, you're fine with typing about money and reading about it all day on here but you aren't ok with listening to a video where you might actually learn something?

K. Just trying to understand where you are coming from...

EDIT: i'm actually embarrassed for you, chrisso.

This is how you are coming off. "Oh no! A positive solution which might actually help people...let me rip it down!" WTF?!?!

[bexarametric]

I don't mind record companies getting paid for their products. But almost $2 million dollars for 24 songs is way excessive. I could understand a penalty of like $200 per song. But $80,000? That's more than most people make in a year for a four minute song. I do agree with Moby that the record companies are going about it the wrong way. I think they should be focusing on putting out better music. That benefits would even reach our industry. IMHO.

Theft always happens. But a great product will always sell.

[ThetaAlpha970]

Originally Posted by drBill

I would except that they were recommended by Xhiphop, so I'm sure they would only piss me off, and X has fulfilled my quota of pissedoffedness for today.....

Maybe someday...





Well that's obvious. You're on the stealing side. I wouldn't expect you TO feel any different.

I however, am on the ARTISTS side. The PRODUCER'S side. The ENGINEER'S side. The SONGWRITERS side. The STUDIO MUSICIANS side. The ARTIST MANAGEMENT side. The ARRANGER'S side. And on and on.

You know, those people who have DEDICATED their lives to it, and have been successful at it because they were actually TALENTED and like cream, rose to the top of their game while working their collective asses off to get there.

Not the side of someone who bought a MBox, did and album in their basement and now sees themselves as an "ARTIST" selling T-Shirts in the future to make money. You know exactly who I'm talking about.

I will make my credentials clear...there's not much to tell. I don't have any major success, but I have had the pleasure to have played out on a few tours, and to have helped record a few songs. I am absolutely as dedicated as anyone here. That's not for me or you to say, really. But again, I'm nothing successful by the Industry's standard, for sure.

The "Mbox" basement kid gets a bad rap for making shitty music, but doubling as a consumer he's onto something. Every musician here started out, and continues to be, a consumer. Pirate or not.

It's not unrealistic, he will have to rise to the top and work his ass off just like everyone else does. But now he sees he can't afford to go into the studio, hire the musicians and producers, etc...but he also knows he doesn't have to, if his end goal is to share it with friends and make fans.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by bexarametric

Theft always happens. But a great product will always sell.

No, it will not sell if people can get it for free.

[XHipHop]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

No, it will not sell if people can get it for free.

trent reznor gave away his album for free yet made $1.2 million the first week through sales. please watch those videos.

[orangeoctane]

Originally Posted by XHipHop

trent reznor gave away his album for free yet made $1.2 million the first week through sales. please watch those videos.

You got the link handy brother?

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by XHipHop

EDIT: i'm actually embarrassed for you, chrisso.

This is how you are coming off. "Oh no! A positive solution which might actually help people...let me rip it down!" WTF?!?!

Now you are being dishonest.
I clearly wrote in the other thread I had a positive reaction to these new ideas.
I'm merely saying I can't get excited about two guys who've never played a note of music in their life, gassing on about marketing in a Starbucks/Yahoo type scenario.
They have as little in common with music lovers, as any marketing man from Warner Brothers.

[XHipHop]

Originally Posted by orangeoctane

You got the link handy brother?

Topspin » NARM’d and Dangerous

2nd video. I wish it wasn't just video of the slideshow but the info is amazing and there are some great success stories.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by ThetaAlpha970

It is extremely devastating if you are used to the old way of things. Or have made a decent income from it and feel like your world is falling apart. I do sympathize.

You entirely missed the point - I think intentionally.
The point is musicians make music, they don't work on marketing strategies etc.....
This goes to the heart of the matter.
Artists like Miley Cyrus and P Diddy will totally immerse themselves in marketing, whereas Nick Cave and The Roots almost certainly don't.
What kind of music do you want to survive?

[XHipHop]

Originally Posted by chrisso

Now you are being dishonest.
I clearly wrote in the other thread I had a positive reaction to these new ideas.
I'm merely saying I can't get excited about two guys who've never played a note of music in their life, gassing on about marketing in a Starbucks/Yahoo type scenario.
They have as little in common with music lovers, as any marketing man from Warner Brothers.

Chrisso, it seems they know more about music lovers than you do, at this point - just being objective.

[XHipHop]

Originally Posted by chrisso

You entirely missed the point - I think intentionally.
The point is musicians make music, they don't work on marketing strategies etc.....
This goes to the heart of the matter.
Artists like Miley Cyrus and P Diddy will totally immerse themselves in marketing, whereas Nick Cave and The Roots almost certainly don't.
What kind of music do you want to survive?

Well they can hire people that work in those things...just as metric has done, which you'd know if you watched the videos.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by ThetaAlpha970

The "Mbox" basement kid gets a bad rap for making shitty music, but doubling as a consumer he's onto something. Every musician here started out, and continues to be, a consumer. Pirate or not.

I agree with you.
The flipside is the problem for me.
The vast majority of illegal downloaders produce NO content.
If they were making music, or television (in their bedrooms or wherever) and using the bit torrent system, or sharing their work for no payment I would have a ton more respect for them.

[slaves666]

Originally Posted by MrT

File-sharer or "theif"-hater you have to admit that $80,000 PER song is way over the top. People that are found liable for the death of another person usually don't get that heavy of a penalty. Are we really saying that file sharing is worse than causing someone to die?

Is it the RIAA's fault that they were awarded that amount.....???

She was found guilty once before, and most have settle out of court for way less.....how is the RIAA the bad guy for protecting their artists?

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by XHipHop

Chrisso, it seems they know more about music lovers than you do, at this point - just being objective.

Like I said (for the third time) I respect their opinion and hope it will lead to a viable business model going forward.
I think you could drop all the nasty put downs however.... honestly.

[XHipHop]

Originally Posted by chrisso

I agree with you.
The flipside is the problem for me.
The vast majority of illegal downloaders produce NO content.
If they were making music, or television (in their bedrooms or wherever) and using the bit torrent system, or sharing their work for no payment I would have a ton more respect for them.

A pretty sizable percentage of the material on youtube is exactly what you describe, btw.

The Grey Album - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That album getting mass media attention started a movement.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by XHipHop

Well they can hire people that work in those things...just as metric has done, which you'd know if you watched the videos.

I watched the first video.
Hiring people costs money. But a lot of free downloaders feel making music should be for the love of it, not for money (the money required to hire marketing experts).
That's exactly where the disconnect lies.
But anyway, yeah I hope it all works out - mostly for the sake of quality music, rather than for me.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by XHipHop

A pretty sizable percentage of the material on youtube is exactly what you describe, btw.

YouTube of course. It's great!
Although YouTube of course periodically clear out content that isn't created by it's uploader.
If only bit torrent sites, linking to free versions of music software and free music, were full of user created content.
I think it's far from that.