The 1,920,000 Dollar Question

[pseudonym]

Which 24 songs (in mp3) are worth $80,000 [to you]?

I only have a few so far;

John Wayne Gacy Jr. - Sufjan Stevens, Illinoise
Dazed and Confused - Led Zeppelin, The Song Remains the Same (better sense of value with the live version)
Mood Indigo - Thelonious Monk, Thelonious Monk Plays the Music of Duke Ellington
Echoes - Pink Floyd, Meddle

This is a harder question than I first thought it'd be.

[chrisso]

'I Fought The Law And The Law Won'?

[rectifier]

I'd honestly have to say none of them.

[RCM - Ronan]

Originally Posted by pseudonym

John Wayne Gacy Jr. - Sufjan Stevens, Illinoise

I will buy that if they throw in "Casimir Pulaski Day" for half price.

I guess the real question is: would you be $80,000 worth of pissed off if you found out that some one actively made an effort to help other people steal stuff from you.

[santibanks]

Originally Posted by rcm

I will buy that if they throw in "Casimir Pulaski Day" for half price.

I guess the real question is: would you be $80,000 worth of pissed off if you found out that some one actively made an effort to help other people steal stuff from you.

depends on what is stolen. The question is, what is actually stolen? Right, there is nothing stolen. Imagine this:
You have a nice painting hanging in your home, on the wall. I make an exact replica of that painting for my own use. Did I just stole your painting?
If you think I did, why did I still left it (the original one, the one you own and still do) hanging on the wall?

[RCM - Ronan]

Originally Posted by rainy-taxi

depends on what is stolen. The question is, what is actually stolen? Right, there is nothing stolen. Imagine this:
You have a nice painting hanging in your home, on the wall. I make an exact replica of that painting for my own use. Did I just stole your painting?
If you think I did, why did I still left it (the original one, the one you own and still do) hanging on the wall?

If you rented a theater to do a big show with your genesis tribute band and you rented a sound system and lights and hired people to help with the production and tickets were 20 Euros. If you could fill 75% of the Theater you would recoup all the money you spent and any tickets you sell over 75% would be profit.

The big night of your show, there is a long line of people wanting to buy tickets to see the concert. after 50% of the seats had been sold I opened up the side door and let all the rest of the people in for free without buying tickets. The concert is 90% full but you lost money because I let people in for free instead of paying.

Did I steal from you? Was what I did a victimless crime. Would you want to sue me?

[HobbyCore]

Originally Posted by pseudonym

Which 24 songs (in mp3) are worth $80,000 [to you]?

I only have a few so far;

John Wayne Gacy Jr. - Sufjan Stevens, Illinoise
Dazed and Confused - Led Zeppelin, The Song Remains the Same (better sense of value with the live version)
Mood Indigo - Thelonious Monk, Thelonious Monk Plays the Music of Duke Ellington
Echoes - Pink Floyd, Meddle

This is a harder question than I first thought it'd be.

good taste

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by rainy-taxi

You have a nice painting hanging in your home, on the wall. I make an exact replica of that painting for my own use. Did I just stole your painting?
If you think I did, why did I still left it (the original one, the one you own and still do) hanging on the wall?

Actually yes this is illegal.
The original painting is a one-off artwork, by cloning it exactly you are hurting the original artist, and also hurting the owner because their original might drop in value.

[HobbyCore]

Originally Posted by chrisso

Actually yes this is illegal.
The original painting is a one-off artwork, by cloning it exactly you are hurting the original artist, and also hurting the owner because their original might drop in value.

Not illegal in the US unless you sell the painting as an original. Making a copy for personal use is allowed, and extremely common (see flickr for many examples).

It's quite common among painters to copy artwork they enjoy, and often sell copies AS copies with no legal ramification (as there are no laws against this).

[chrisso]

Actually no. Take a look at any Arts information site, or US copyright law.
You must seek permission from any living artist to copy their work.
Any art copied should be different to the original in some way, easiest example would be different size, and if considered for sale, should be labelled clearly as a copy on the artwork itself.
Now maybe we could apply some of these rules to music downloads.

[Croaker]

Originally Posted by rainy-taxi

depends on what is stolen. The question is, what is actually stolen? Right, there is nothing stolen. Imagine this:
You have a nice painting hanging in your home, on the wall. I make an exact replica of that painting for my own use. Did I just stole your painting?
If you think I did, why did I still left it (the original one, the one you own and still do) hanging on the wall?

Originally Posted by rcm

If you rented a theater to do a big show with your genesis tribute band and you rented a sound system and lights and hired people to help with the production and tickets were 20 Euros. If you could fill 75% of the Theater you would recoup all the money you spent and any tickets you sell over 75% would be profit.

The big night of your show, there is a long line of people wanting to buy tickets to see the concert. after 50% of the seats had been sold I opened up the side door and let all the rest of the people in for free without buying tickets. The concert is 90% full but you lost money because I let people in for free instead of paying.

Did I steal from you? Was what I did a victimless crime. Would you want to sue me?

..or better yet a couple people that paid went to the back door and let a bunch of people in without paying. They saw the show without paying. Did they steal from you? When they left they didn't take anything with them. The music you played is just a copy of the music you always play so you still have your music. heck some of the people that got let in were just walking buy and only came in because it was free...they weren't gonna buy tickets anyway..........

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Croaker

heck some of the people that got let in were just walking buy and only came in because it was free...they weren't gonna buy tickets anyway..........

And you were going to play the gig anyway, whether half the audience got in free or not.
Those who did walk in without paying didn't steal your show, they just cheated you out of some of your potential income. They also cheated those who paid.

[santibanks]

Originally Posted by rcm

If you rented a theater to do a big show with your genesis tribute band and you rented a sound system and lights and hired people to help with the production and tickets were 20 Euros. If you could fill 75% of the Theater you would recoup all the money you spent and any tickets you sell over 75% would be profit.

The big night of your show, there is a long line of people wanting to buy tickets to see the concert. after 50% of the seats had been sold I opened up the side door and let all the rest of the people in for free without buying tickets. The concert is 90% full but you lost money because I let people in for free instead of paying.

Did I steal from you? Was what I did a victimless crime. Would you want to sue me?

Im not sure how I would call it but I dont see that as theft. Theft is nothing more nothing less then taking away someones property without permission and without giving it back.

Those profits where not mine (or ours for that matter) at that time. Unless everything was covered in contracts (and then it might be fraud, not theft), I would even doubt if I made a good case in court (im not from the USA, we have a different court system). It might be fraud (which is illegal), but then again, it wasn't our money. It is what we might have gotten but if the money isn't there in the first place, how can people steal it? The visitors didn't pay so the estimated profits aren't made. We are making a difference in what I should get (estimation) and what I did get. But we never got that money, in fact no-one ever got that money so it's not theft IMHO (but that doesn't say that this action might be illegal).

Originally Posted by chrisso

Actually yes this is illegal.
The original painting is a one-off artwork, by cloning it exactly you are hurting the original artist, and also hurting the owner because their original might drop in value.

Sure, it might be illegal. But did I stole the painting? No I didn't. Look! It's still there hanging on the wall…

Originally Posted by Croaker

..or better yet a couple people that paid went to the back door and let a bunch of people in without paying. They saw the show without paying. Did they steal from you? When they left they didn't take anything with them. The music you played is just a copy of the music you always play so you still have your music. heck some of the people that got let in were just walking buy and only came in because it was free...they weren't gonna buy tickets anyway..........

Like I said before, nothing that I own in this scenario is taken from me, so no theft. But it might be illegal.

And that's the whole point. A lot of people talk about theft of music but there is nothing stolen. What happens might be illegal (that will even depend on the country. Downloading this content is legal in the Netherlands, uploading it isn't. So I can download anything I want as long as I don't share a single bit of it) but there is nothing stolen. Downloaders are always "stealing" where in fact they are copying.

[Croaker]

play with the words all you want.

not stealing... copying....illlegal...whatever

the intent is there

Copyright infringement (or copyright violation) is the unauthorized use of material that is covered by copyright law, in a manner that violates one of the copyright owner's exclusive rights, such as the right to reproduce or perform the copyrighted work, or to make derivative works.

[mobius.media]

Originally Posted by rainy-taxi

You have a nice painting hanging in your home, on the wall. I make an exact replica of that painting for my own use. Did I just stole your painting?
If you think I did, why did I still left it (the original one, the one you own and still do) hanging on the wall?

If it's an identical copy, you've devalued the original by making it less rare. If you give those copies away for free, you devalue it further by driving down its perceived value.

Supply and demand.

[NoEgo]

Originally Posted by rainy-taxi

Im not sure how I would call it but I dont see that as theft. Theft is nothing more nothing less then taking away someones property without permission and without giving it back.

Those profits where not mine (or ours for that matter) at that time. Unless everything was covered in contracts (and then it might be fraud, not theft), I would even doubt if I made a good case in court (im not from the USA, we have a different court system). It might be fraud (which is illegal), but then again, it wasn't our money. It is what we might have gotten but if the money isn't there in the first place, how can people steal it? The visitors didn't pay so the estimated profits aren't made. We are making a difference in what I should get (estimation) and what I did get. But we never got that money, in fact no-one ever got that money so it's not theft IMHO (but that doesn't say that this action might be illegal).





Sure, it might be illegal. But did I stole the painting? No I didn't. Look! It's still there hanging on the wall…



Like I said before, nothing that I own in this scenario is taken from me, so no theft. But it might be illegal.

And that's the whole point. A lot of people talk about theft of music but there is nothing stolen. What happens might be illegal (that will even depend on the country. Downloading this content is legal in the Netherlands, uploading it isn't. So I can download anything I want as long as I don't share a single bit of it) but there is nothing stolen. Downloaders are always "stealing" where in fact they are copying.

You know I have to snicker at the fact that people still have these views..
I am a songwriter and have had and have not had over the years, some cuts. I also had a songwriter's demo studio and I am starting another.
The song is one's income or part there of.. done!!! So yes you are stealing someone's income..period.

I mentioned this in another thread.
Suppose here we are all recording these artists and songwriters, and instrumentalists with compositions...and the market said...hey you f-kin engineers only get paid if the song makes money!" Maybe then we might have a different attitude about this. You see. No one is closer to the copyright owners than the engineer and producer that is recording the material right? Here's another...why the hell shouldn't those damn songwriters and the like, all go bye the next million track stand alone digital recorders cause assholes like us don't really care about their music but just want to get paid up front,..yeah ...then where would all the engineers and producers who think it's ok to rape the guys talent with free downloads be...yeah.. ...so how bout you all just wait for the song to make money, it will be a hit and then you can be paid, feed your families..cause that is what 95% of the people out there have to do. No one will take it for free...

I can't believe that people think they have an arguement for this..It just kills me the lack of respect and the internal sodomy that this industry can have.

Sorry to vent..but it is just rediculous to me that we would have supporters of this in our own industry.

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by rainy-taxi

Im not sure how I would call it but I dont see that as theft. Theft is nothing more nothing less then taking away someones property without permission and without giving it back.

not true.

what you are describing is a "rival" property, meaning it is temporal, it can only be in one place at one time - intellectual property however can be in many places at once - and hence, copies - this is how copyright evolved - as the LITERAL RIGHT TO MAKE A COPY. That right is retained for the copyright holder.

copyright and intellectual property are the foundation of modern economics.

please read this, see if you can understand it:

Intellectual_Property @ Wikipedia
Intellectual property - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...and for more fun education on IP and Copyrights:
Intellectual Property Law: Why Should I Care? __________________

Economists estimate that two-thirds of the value of large businesses in the U.S. can be traced to intangible assets. Industries which rely on IP protections are estimated to produce 72 percent more value per added employee than non-IP industries.[5] A joint research project of the WIPO and the United Nations University measuring the impact of IP systems on six Asian countries found "a positive correlation between the strengthening of the IP system and subsequent economic growth." [6]

PS: get all the FREE MUSIC you want right here - this is what FREE MUSIC sounds like, Enjoy!
SoundClick - Free MP3 music download and much, much more.