Defining a Kick Drum

Brandon Hook · 24th November 2003

Hey all,

I've been having great difficulty in getting my kick drum to sit properly in my latest mixes. It always seems to be bass heavy and lack definition. I'm using only a Beta 52 on the kick. I've tried some eq and compression with not so great results. What else can I try to make it sit better and become more defined? The electric distorted guitars usually seem to get in the way of it's definition, so I tried cutting a narrow band 3K out of the guitars, but that didn't seem to accomplish what I was after. I'm dealing with mostly heavy rock/punk rock stuff...so the bass drum is usually pretty fast. Thank you for your expertise.

imacgreg · 24th November 2003

First off, where was the kick mic placed? I used to mic kicks with just one mic and then someone showed me the two mic method and I won't go back.

Anyway, if it was placed outside, I don't know what to tell ya. I don't think you'd be able to get what you need for punk. If it's on the inside then you've got a chance. I usually compress the kick on the way in with something like a distressor, tune the attack so you get some punch of the drum through. Make sure your kick drum point (or click) is not too low (a problem I used to have). Sometimes reach up around 5-10k to find the "click" that makes it through the mix. Also, consider bussing the kick, toms, and maybe snare to a stereo buss compressor and totally whack the shit out of the drums. Then just bring that in underneath the natural drum tracks and it will ad some beef and punch.

Listen to reference material frequently on your monitors so you can tell if you are headed in the right direction or not. Are you analog or digital?

Hope that helps give sme ideas...

Ian

Roland · 24th November 2003

Listen to a lot of the commercial "heavy rock" records out their and you will notice that the BD is little more than a click sound. It maybe that the beta52 is giving you too much bass end. If this is the case I would put a high pass filter as well as possibly a bass eq. Gonna need a lot of 3-5khz depending on the drum.

It is totally possible, that either the drum wasn't a good one, or that the mic was in the wrong position. If this is the case you either have more than a lot of work to do or simpler (not that I particularly advocate it) replace the drum with triggered drum samples. This is common practice in these situations and regularly used on big budget productions anyway.

Hope this is a help!

Regards

Roland

Brandon Hook · 24th November 2003

How would I replace the bass drum using samples? I don't have access to sound replacer with pro tools, is there any similar plugins for Sonar 2.2XL?

ALso, I did mic the kick from the outside. I've wanted to try some new mics on the kick as well....I;m looking at the RE20, KSM44, or AT4050. are any of these acceptable for punk results? What are your favorite mic positions for these mics?

Thank you for your prompt responses!

Roland · 24th November 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Brandon Hook
How would I replace the bass drum using samples? I don't have access to sound replacer with pro tools, is there any similar plugins for Sonar 2.2XL?

ALso, I did mic the kick from the outside. I've wanted to try some new mics on the kick as well....I;m looking at the RE20, KSM44, or AT4050. are any of these acceptable for punk results? What are your favorite mic positions for these mics?

Thank you for your prompt responses!

Drumagog from wavemachine labs is a really good one! available as a DX plugin and they also offer 2 week trial for free I believe!

As for miking the drum, you will get a lot more click if you mike the drum from inside possibly pointing towards the beater. It varies according to the drum itself.

Don't discount mics like D12, D112, (plenty of click on these) MD421. All these are good old standards for this kind of thing!

Regards

Roland

imacgreg · 24th November 2003

Depending on the drum, I don't think you could go very wrong with either a D112, RE20, or the Beta52 (although I've never used one) on the inside and anything with a decent bass response on the outside. I usually end up using the inside mic for 75-90% of my kick sound and the outside mic for a little low end balls. I have been using a D112 (although I'm starting to see why some people don't like them) inside and a modified MXL2001 on the outside, although some of the guys at work are digging the Blue Ball on the outside as well.

As for your particular situation I don't think you will get what you need from just an outside mic. I would recomend using samples. Even if you make the samples yourself with the sam kick, that could be cool. Just mic it from the inside and get some good solid hits.

Ian

dave-G · 24th November 2003

Although it may not help you now, I'd just suggest that most of the sound of a kick drum is created by the preparation of the drum itself, by how it's hit, and thus, by the player. Most of the mics suggested are capable of doing a good job.

On the drum itself, fresh, properly chosen, and well-tuned heads are important...

Also, I often like to try a different beater on the kick pedal. Sometimes a wood beater gives the kind of "pap" that puts itself into the right spot in the mix. Other beaters with the felt in front can be reversed for a similar hard-surface smack.

Third, try a pop-filter. Especially on drums with a small hole cut in the outer head, there can be a fairly decent gust of air with each kick that can add mud to the bottom of the sound of the kick. A stocking-style popper-stopper placed in front of your mic can make a huge difference in tightening and clearing things up.

Finally, with the player, you may have some problems with the way they hit it. Some drummers are very adept at changing between pressing the beater into the head, and bouncing it off. Other drummers have no clue that there's a difference, but many times, when I've walked out into the tracking space to make the suggestion, I've found that some drummers are quite capable of adapting to one way or another.

I don't know about you, but as much as I love microphone, preamp and compressor combinations, and as useful as soundreplacer can be... I'd much rather let the drum and the drummer do all the work.

-dave

davemc · 25th November 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Brandon Hook
How would I replace the bass drum using samples? I don't have access to sound replacer with pro tools, is there any similar plugins for Sonar 2.2XL?

ALso, I did mic the kick from the outside. I've wanted to try some new mics on the kick as well....I;m looking at the RE20, KSM44, or AT4050. are any of these acceptable for punk results? What are your favorite mic positions for these mics?

Thank you for your prompt responses!

Does Sonar have a tab to transient function or something similar.
So you can just tab around and drop a sample manually. A lot of people do this instead of soundreplacer.

Jules · 25th November 2003

If you are doing punk / rock you might as well get up to speed with Drumagog anyway and it sounds ideal for your situation...

jbuntz · 26th November 2003

Ditto. I had a friend tell me you can do the same thing with a MIDI gate? I dunno. Drumagog has some cool features on it though.

didgitaldu · 18th December 2003

Brandon,

This reply may be a little late but here goes:

Try a steep and narrow cut somewhere in the 300-500hz area. Sweep until you find the right frequency. Cut as much as your gain knob will allow. If you have overlapping bands try cutting twice at the same frequency. Use a very narrow "Q". It'll start to sound less boxy. Boost somewhere in the presence range, maybe 1-5khz. Not too steep but a moderately gentle bell. You're looking for "click" or "snap", maybe "crack". If there's still too much bottom roll it off. Sometimes a high pass filter on the very bottom (40hz) does it. Other times you may need a shelf gently cutting from a little higher (maybe 100 hz). Alternate listening to the kick soloed and in the mix. Roll off the low end on the guitars. You'll have to judge how much and at what frequency. A good high pass filter in the 100-200hz area should work. You'll start to hear the kick becoming more distinct and the bottom end clearing up. Soloed the guitars will sound thinner but in the mix they should be fine. Do the same to the bass but at a lower frequency. Lastly, you can try compression on the kick post EQ but it will depend on how much leakage there is; if there is a lot it will affect the rest of the drum sound. You could try gating the kick either by setting the threshhold carefully or by keying a ducking mode from the snare track. Of course, given enough time and patience you could edit every drum hit to get rid of snare leakage... If the compressor works, set the attack very slow and the attack fast. Try different ratios but start in the 3x1 range. Now speed up the attack and adjust the threshhold until you get the punch you need.

All the other suggestions in this thread are good. I used to trigger replacement drums from my Alesis D4 before I got Sound Replacer. That works well if the drum is played consistently. Another trick, if you don't have a wooden beater when recording, is to press a thumbtack into the felt beater right where it makes contact with the head.

Hope this helps...

e-cue · 18th December 2003

try taping a dime to the beater yet?

blackcatdigi · 18th December 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by e-cue
try taping a dime to the beater yet?

Or a quarter to the head?

That works for a little while!... Eventually, the friction will rub off the top surface of the tape, exposing the glue, and the beater will start sticking to the head. Really throws your timing!

Beato (or somebody) makes some 'click pads' that do the same thing without the 'sticky' problem... I just use wood, plastic, or hard rubber beaters for that sound.

Happy Holidays!

seedee701 · 19th December 2003

another ugly one:

gate the kick in daw with attack time set to virtually zero. threshold hi enough that the attack gets cut a little. you'll hear a nasty little click on every attack. (you are basically cutting on a non-zero-crossing of the soundwave) sounds artificial/digital when soloed, but in a dense mix it can help cutting through without changing the original sound you might wanna keep.
wouldn't recommend this for a pop-ballad, though

drundall · 31st December 2003

If you're playing fast punk rock I don't think the beta 52 is going to do it for you. I'd try a Sennheiser 421. What style of punk are you playing? There are so many subgenres now that are totally different.

cdog · 1st January 2004

Cut the low end out of the kick (100hz) , then compress to taste

Tightens right up.

alphajerk · 2nd January 2004

compress the kick with a slow attack, semi fast release after you lose the bottom below 65hz w/ a hpfilter. then scoop the 250-300 range out... point something up near the click...

24th November 2003	#1
Brandon Hook Gear interested Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Swartz-Creek MI Posts: 9 Thread Starter	Defining a Kick Drum Hey all, I've been having great difficulty in getting my kick drum to sit properly in my latest mixes. It always seems to be bass heavy and lack definition. I'm using only a Beta 52 on the kick. I've tried some eq and compression with not so great results. What else can I try to make it sit better and become more defined? The electric distorted guitars usually seem to get in the way of it's definition, so I tried cutting a narrow band 3K out of the guitars, but that didn't seem to accomplish what I was after. I'm dealing with mostly heavy rock/punk rock stuff...so the bass drum is usually pretty fast. Thank you for your expertise. __________________ Have A great day

24th November 2003	#2
imacgreg Gear addict Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Echo Park, Los Angeles Posts: 440	First off, where was the kick mic placed? I used to mic kicks with just one mic and then someone showed me the two mic method and I won't go back. Anyway, if it was placed outside, I don't know what to tell ya. I don't think you'd be able to get what you need for punk. If it's on the inside then you've got a chance. I usually compress the kick on the way in with something like a distressor, tune the attack so you get some punch of the drum through. Make sure your kick drum point (or click) is not too low (a problem I used to have). Sometimes reach up around 5-10k to find the "click" that makes it through the mix. Also, consider bussing the kick, toms, and maybe snare to a stereo buss compressor and totally whack the shit out of the drums. Then just bring that in underneath the natural drum tracks and it will ad some beef and punch. Listen to reference material frequently on your monitors so you can tell if you are headed in the right direction or not. Are you analog or digital? Hope that helps give sme ideas... Ian __________________ ---------- Ian MacGregor http://twitter.com/#!/blackwatchsound www.standard-audio.com - Home of the Level-Or, 500 series Level-loc inspired limiter Visit Standard Audio on Facebook

25th November 2003	#9
Jules Gearslutz.com admin Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: A Yank in London, UK Posts: 17,356 1 Review written	If you are doing punk / rock you might as well get up to speed with Drumagog anyway and it sounds ideal for your situation... __________________ Jules Add your reviews to the new reviews area! Gearslutz on Facebook Follow my GS picks on Twitter

31st December 2003	#15
drundall Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Torrance, CA Posts: 885	If you're playing fast punk rock I don't think the beta 52 is going to do it for you. I'd try a Sennheiser 421. What style of punk are you playing? There are so many subgenres now that are totally different. __________________ "I know of several comparisons [right here on this board] where no one could tell the difference between a Martech pre-amp and a Behringer." - Fletcher Darian Rundall

2nd January 2004	#17
alphajerk There is only one Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: asheville NC Posts: 5,260	compress the kick with a slow attack, semi fast release after you lose the bottom below 65hz w/ a hpfilter. then scoop the 250-300 range out... point something up near the click... __________________ "i must invent my own systems or else be enslaved by other men's'" william blake __________________________ email: barrett [at] alphajerk [dot] com

24th November 2003	#3
Roland Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: St Leonards on Sea, England Posts: 2,068 2 Reviews written	Listen to a lot of the commercial "heavy rock" records out their and you will notice that the BD is little more than a click sound. It maybe that the beta52 is giving you too much bass end. If this is the case I would put a high pass filter as well as possibly a bass eq. Gonna need a lot of 3-5khz depending on the drum. It is totally possible, that either the drum wasn't a good one, or that the mic was in the wrong position. If this is the case you either have more than a lot of work to do or simpler (not that I particularly advocate it) replace the drum with triggered drum samples. This is common practice in these situations and regularly used on big budget productions anyway. Hope this is a help! Regards Roland

24th November 2003	#7
dave-G Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 2,481	Although it may not help you now, I'd just suggest that most of the sound of a kick drum is created by the preparation of the drum itself, by how it's hit, and thus, by the player. Most of the mics suggested are capable of doing a good job. On the drum itself, fresh, properly chosen, and well-tuned heads are important... Also, I often like to try a different beater on the kick pedal. Sometimes a wood beater gives the kind of "pap" that puts itself into the right spot in the mix. Other beaters with the felt in front can be reversed for a similar hard-surface smack. Third, try a pop-filter. Especially on drums with a small hole cut in the outer head, there can be a fairly decent gust of air with each kick that can add mud to the bottom of the sound of the kick. A stocking-style popper-stopper placed in front of your mic can make a huge difference in tightening and clearing things up. Finally, with the player, you may have some problems with the way they hit it. Some drummers are very adept at changing between pressing the beater into the head, and bouncing it off. Other drummers have no clue that there's a difference, but many times, when I've walked out into the tracking space to make the suggestion, I've found that some drummers are quite capable of adapting to one way or another. I don't know about you, but as much as I love microphone, preamp and compressor combinations, and as useful as soundreplacer can be... I'd much rather let the drum and the drummer do all the work. -dave

26th November 2003	#10
jbuntz Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,716	Ditto. I had a friend tell me you can do the same thing with a MIDI gate? I dunno. Drumagog has some cool features on it though.

18th December 2003	#11
didgitaldu Gear interested Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Emeryville Posts: 2	Brandon, This reply may be a little late but here goes: Try a steep and narrow cut somewhere in the 300-500hz area. Sweep until you find the right frequency. Cut as much as your gain knob will allow. If you have overlapping bands try cutting twice at the same frequency. Use a very narrow "Q". It'll start to sound less boxy. Boost somewhere in the presence range, maybe 1-5khz. Not too steep but a moderately gentle bell. You're looking for "click" or "snap", maybe "crack". If there's still too much bottom roll it off. Sometimes a high pass filter on the very bottom (40hz) does it. Other times you may need a shelf gently cutting from a little higher (maybe 100 hz). Alternate listening to the kick soloed and in the mix. Roll off the low end on the guitars. You'll have to judge how much and at what frequency. A good high pass filter in the 100-200hz area should work. You'll start to hear the kick becoming more distinct and the bottom end clearing up. Soloed the guitars will sound thinner but in the mix they should be fine. Do the same to the bass but at a lower frequency. Lastly, you can try compression on the kick post EQ but it will depend on how much leakage there is; if there is a lot it will affect the rest of the drum sound. You could try gating the kick either by setting the threshhold carefully or by keying a ducking mode from the snare track. Of course, given enough time and patience you could edit every drum hit to get rid of snare leakage... If the compressor works, set the attack very slow and the attack fast. Try different ratios but start in the 3x1 range. Now speed up the attack and adjust the threshhold until you get the punch you need. All the other suggestions in this thread are good. I used to trigger replacement drums from my Alesis D4 before I got Sound Replacer. That works well if the drum is played consistently. Another trick, if you don't have a wooden beater when recording, is to press a thumbtack into the felt beater right where it makes contact with the head. Hope this helps...

18th December 2003	#12
e-cue Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Lost Angeles Posts: 4,061	try taping a dime to the beater yet?

19th December 2003	#14
seedee701 Gear maniac Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 150	another ugly one: gate the kick in daw with attack time set to virtually zero. threshold hi enough that the attack gets cut a little. you'll hear a nasty little click on every attack. (you are basically cutting on a non-zero-crossing of the soundwave) sounds artificial/digital when soloed, but in a dense mix it can help cutting through without changing the original sound you might wanna keep. wouldn't recommend this for a pop-ballad, though

1st January 2004	#16
cdog Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 3,437 3 Reviews written	Cut the low end out of the kick (100hz) , then compress to taste Tightens right up.

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