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2ndMOUSE
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#1
8th October 2013
Old 8th October 2013
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Fractal Pterodactyl
 
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Am I the only one ??

As you know , every board , whether its here , kvr , idmf , or whatever has a room where you can post your music for feedback , whether its called a " music cafe " , a " listening booth " or whatever , but is it just me , or has anyone else noticed you cant actually get much feedback in them anymore ??

The consensus is that if you listen to others , those others will listen back , but in my experience it hasn't really worked that way.
I've given good analytical constructive feedback , pointing out the good elements , but also , where it was needed , pointing out things that needed fixed.
The way I see it , praise will only get you so far. Its when someone has the cajones to be honest and tell it like it actually is , that an artist can look at what they're doing and focus on it , therefore upping their game. Praise just makes someone contented , but they wont grow from it.

anyway , I know what I do is good , but im not satisfied with good. Either its brilliant or I've failed. I see black and white. Grey is nowhere in this game.

So , I've given feedback , mostly to artists who post one track and they aren't seen again for a year , so how do I get feedback on my own tracks ?
I've seen this steady decline over 13 years , and although my music is massively improved from where it was at the start , I can't get any feedback anymore.
My latest track has had roughly 60 plays in 2 days , and favourited 11 times , with barely a whisper , or any mention of ways to improve it.
I still have a huge amount to learn , and Im far from satisfied with my current level....especially when I visit Gears and see all you guys with your mega-studios , and rooms full of equipment , but I dont have the time to listen to a roomful of tracks , and im sure artists like orbital , plaid , BOC etc....didnt get to where they are because they gave everyone good feedback at www.reciprical backslaps.com

Am I the only one who feels like every time they release a track , they are pissing in the wind by trying to promote it ??

Is it me , or just the general decline in the industry caused by the oversaturation of music online ?? I'm frustrated to the max

All this computer time time trying to get somewhere is making me ill. I wont go into details , but I've gone without sleep , food , beer , in an effort to put the hours in. What happened to " the good will out " etc.... ?

so ...so....tired of pissing in the wind.
#2
8th October 2013
Old 8th October 2013
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Good post, and I agree on the points you've made.

If there is one thing I have learned, it's that the internet isn't "real," it's unreal. People do things on the 'net that they wouldn't do in real life. Your example above is just one, where rudeness and lack of common courtesy is exacerbated to the max on forum listening/feedback rooms etc.

For all of the pros that come from a digital presence, nothing will beat getting your music out there, in front of real human beings, in a live context.

Whatever the case, your frustration is completely normal and is shared by many, including me.
2ndMOUSE
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#3
8th October 2013
Old 8th October 2013
  #3
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Originally Posted by Reml@P View Post
Good post, and I agree on the points you've made.

If there is one thing I have learned, it's that the internet isn't "real," it's unreal. People do things on the 'net that they wouldn't do in real life. Your example above is just one, where rudeness and lack of common courtesy is exacerbated to the max on forum listening/feedback rooms etc.

For all of the pros that come from a digital presence, nothing will beat getting your music out there, in front of real human beings, in a live context.

Whatever the case, your frustration is completely normal and is shared by many, including me.
Are people just tired of listening to mediocre music ?
There are just an incredible amount of musicians ( I use the term loosely ) online , and , in my opinion , music is comprised of a multi-disciplined approach. Time , effort , passion , creativity , determination , motivation , imagination.
I listen to a lot of music online that sounds like it barely has 1 of these elements , and I see them as 'dabblers' , rather than being fully fledged musicians who eat semi-quavers and crap treble clefs , and who have music in their blood.
There just seems to be an over-abundance of 'dabblers' drowning out , through sheer numbers , those who are 100% committed to the cause , and I think people are just sick of clicking a link and hearing something half-baked , with no imagination.

I make music , first and foremost , because I love it , and I strive with myself to get better at it , in competition with myself , reading manuals , absorbing as much info as I can , experimenting , fighting sleep to work on a track for 17 hours in a session , forgetting that im actually hungry , I smell , and probably risking divorce , because im so focused on it , to the exclusion of everything else. I am obsessed..
To be drowned out by 'dabblers' with a cracked copy of FL studio , a handful of wub wubs , a 'sound just like skrillex' youtube tutorial , and as much imaginative inertia as a monkey nut , has just made the whole promotional aspect an exercise in frustration for me , and I know that playing live is what a lot of people will suggest , but a) my music doesnt convert well to a live experience , and b) ive tried it , got ripped off , and got my eyes opened concerning promoters.
Im frustrated , and I dont know what to do.
My music has never sounded better , even though I still feel I have a huge amount to learn about the more esoteric aspects such as mastering , mix separation , dynamics etc.......but I got far more comments / feedback when my music was terrible at the start...
I get likes , I get follows , but I think a lot of those people kinda 'collect' as if they're collecting pokemon , cos I dont hear from them , they dont engage , and I just think " why on earth am I putting myself through all this ? "
#4
8th October 2013
Old 8th October 2013
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We talk about this a lot over here.

I think there is a lot of great stuff out there. Probably more than ever.
In popular music, sometimes it seems that everyone is striving for the same thing.
There are a lot of electric guitars that sound pretty much all the same.
It's funny to listen to people's horrendously expensive guitars, amps,multi mics, expensive Neve consoles, etc...
and it's all just a wash of sameness.
Same with mixes.
Maybe there needs to be a massive paradigm shift.

I have a client who has done crazy well in the mixing world for pop rock music.
He put a couple of mixes up on a board anonymously, and the comments from basement people were a scream.
"You'll never get your mixes taken seriously with vocal compression like that".
"The drums are a little over the top. Keep working on it. Try crushing the drum bus."
And my favorite...
"You are on the right track, but have a long way to go. I am running a special of $50 a mix if you would like to send me the tracks."

I just don't think seeking approval from anonymous folks, who may or may not even know what they are talking about, is a good thing to do.

You really have to think hard about who your peers are.
#5
8th October 2013
Old 8th October 2013
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Dude I feel you. I have my little family so don't do it as much, and love recording and mixing my own music, but nothing compares to 250 people in a room dancing to the gypsy punk songs my band is playing and singing along to words that took me a heartfelt eternity to write. Nothing. I just saw a picture of myself with the front row of the crowd nose to nose with me, sweat all over our faces, my fist in the air as I stepped away from the mic and sang (roared) into the crowd. Those lap top dancing fools will never know what that feels like. No stolen drum loop and vst can get you there. Ahh. Good stuff.

Sent from my HTCEVOV4G
#6
8th October 2013
Old 8th October 2013
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I think that because there is so much music out there you have to try harder. But it is true that it is difficult to be heard among a sea of mediocrity. People just get blind to it all, the internet has no filter, endless surfing, you end up not seeing the wood for the trees. If I was in the position of someone young and ambitious, desperate to make a mark, I would get a live set together, and also target radio stations, they are still a good source of opinion and possible airplay if the DJ thinks you are good enough, but it's getting a foot in the door that's the problem. I don't listen to music on the internet that much, but I do listen to the radio a lot, mainly BBC6 Music here in the UK, every evening my kitchen calendar gets new scrawls on it, the names of bands being played that I would never have heard of, its really thrilling to go on YouTube and look them up. The music on the radio unlike the internet has already run past a critical pair of ears, and is more worth listening to.
But live music is the predominant thing these days, London is awash with all sorts of gigs, you name it, and venues are out there, you just have to find the right ones. Just relying on the internet isn't the right thing to do in my opinion, I have always said that you need to back it up with gigs, and real world advertising and actually speaking to people, putting yourself about.

WB.
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#7
8th October 2013
Old 8th October 2013
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookerv12 View Post
We talk about this a lot over here.

I think there is a lot of great stuff out there. Probably more than ever.
In popular music, sometimes it seems that everyone is striving for the same thing.
There are a lot of electric guitars that sound pretty much all the same.
It's funny to listen to people's horrendously expensive guitars, amps,multi mics, expensive Neve consoles, etc...
and it's all just a wash of sameness.
Same with mixes.
Maybe there needs to be a massive paradigm shift.

I have a client who has done crazy well in the mixing world for pop rock music.
He put a couple of mixes up on a board anonymously, and the comments from basement people were a scream.
"You'll never get your mixes taken seriously with vocal compression like that".
"The drums are a little over the top. Keep working on it. Try crushing the drum bus."
And my favorite...
"You are on the right track, but have a long way to go. I am running a special of $50 a mix if you would like to send me the tracks."

I just don't think seeking approval from anonymous folks, who may or may not even know what they are talking about, is a good thing to do.

You really have to think hard about who your peers are.
Thanks Booker. I appreciate what you're saying.
I dont seek approval from the point where im insecure about what I do and need validation. If I wanted that , id be making dubstep
The approval im after is the recognition from people who really do know what they're talking about , and are seasoned , experienced , professionals , with sage advice and great sonic insight. A bit like yoda , or mister miagi....

Seriously though.......someone saying "nice track mate" is gratifying for about 0.3 seconds. It was a big deal the very first couple of times , but a master swordsman is never happy with rough edges , and I like to think of music in a similar way to how , in martial arts movies , and indeed , in japanese legend , there was a hermit who lived in the woods who was a master swordmaker , who put his very spirit into his creations , and they were highly sought after.

Im 100 times happier to hear " the bass is too thick in the upper range...roll off some Q around 230hz " than I am to hear "nice track". I already know they are nice tracks , but at this stage of the game , I need to up my game in terms of mixcraft and refining the edges to make the cleanest cuts without raggedy edges , but I struggle to even get plays now , nevermind quality informed judgements and insightful advice.
I seem to have arrived at a plateau of stalemate , but I need to keep going up , up , up , to the next level , and I dont know how to do that anymore.
At the risk of sounding conceited , I think my music is better than average , and I cant understand why its being ignored. I think nothing of looping a 16 bar pattern over and over and over again , for 3 hours , inputting , deleting , inputting , deleting , trying to find the catchy hook that gets those neck hairs standing up , and I regularly say to my wife " im going to sleep around 3am " and she'll wake at 7am to find me still setting there , looking engrossed , but looking wrecked , so I get 4 or 5 hours sleep , and get up to do it all over again.
I cant hold down a job because I spend all my time thinking about music , and I've invested so much of my time and energy over the past umpteen years , working towards a goal that now feels like I've driven into a cul-de-sac.
When the big record companies held sway over the industry , there was something to aim for.
Having a contract meant something. Being signed to a label meant something. Getting a no.1 meant something. Now , none of that means anything.
Ive been on a label for the last 3 years who used believe digital to get the music onto 240 online stores including itunes , juno , deezer etc.....in something like 250 countries , and guess what ? , it didnt amount to a hill of beans.
I had some sales from radio play, a few album sales , and was even lucky enough to have a track used on a programme on the mtv channel , but that was an anomaly , and definitely not something that happens on a daily basis. My music is clearly good enough , but its being ignored by the general populace.
There's more chance of me getting a like from uploading a picture of my dog on facebook , than there is of someone actually playing one of my tracks on facebook.

Is it me ? Is it the way im promoting , or is it something more endemic , like a general apathy / malaise , in the industry as a whole ?
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#8
8th October 2013
Old 8th October 2013
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Originally Posted by wallyburger View Post
I think that because there is so much music out there you have to try harder. But it is true that it is difficult to be heard among a sea of mediocrity. People just get blind to it all, the internet has no filter, endless surfing, you end up not seeing the wood for the trees. If I was in the position of someone young and ambitious, desperate to make a mark, I would get a live set together, and also target radio stations, they are still a good source of opinion and possible airplay if the DJ thinks you are good enough, but it's getting a foot in the door that's the problem. I don't listen to music on the internet that much, but I do listen to the radio a lot, mainly BBC6 Music here in the UK, every evening my kitchen calendar gets new scrawls on it, the names of bands being played that I would never have heard of, its really thrilling to go on YouTube and look them up. The music on the radio unlike the internet has already run past a critical pair of ears, and is more worth listening to.
But live music is the predominant thing these days, London is awash with all sorts of gigs, you name it, and venues are out there, you just have to find the right ones. Just relying on the internet isn't the right thing to do in my opinion, I have always said that you need to back it up with gigs, and real world advertising and actually speaking to people, putting yourself about.

WB.
Thanks Wally.
I like bbc6 a lot. Theres a great balance and so much great music on it. I attempted to get my music on there as thats the kinda station id love to get played on , so I went to the bbc site , and registered for "bbc introducing" and submitted some tracks to the bbc , hoping they'd get picked up by bbc6 , but they only get as far as the local satellite bbc stations in my area , on which ive been played a handful of times , and im grateful of. One of the djs bought one of my albums even though I offered to send him a free copy. I was even fortunate enough to get a half hour mix played , and on one occasion there was a special programme focussed on electronic music from northern ireland , that was broadcast on the local station but relayed through radio 1 , so even though it was at 3am , ive had airplay on radio 1. I even have a prestigious radio 1 dj following me on soundcloud , but they never play my music on the station and never comment or listen to the tracks.
I need to be able to target bbc6 djs directly without having to go through the filters and end up getting dished out to local subsidiary satellite stations , so how would I do that ?
#9
8th October 2013
Old 8th October 2013
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I don't come from the EDM world, so I can't comment on instrumental hooks and such, and what makes that great. But I love it in the club.

From the Rock, pop, country mainstream, AC, lyrical hooks arena, I see huge canyons of difference between what affects me and what, simply does not.

I spend all of my time, well most, turning phrases and trying to simplify rhyme counterpoints, mixing metaphor and day to day happenings effortlessly for the listener to bathe in. It's the hardest thing I've ever done. It is only easy for a handful of naturals, and the rest have to work at it. It's like that in anything, really. You always have your Orrs and Gretzky's. The rest are lunch box guys busting their ass for extra ice time. That's me, and I still love it !!!
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#10
8th October 2013
Old 8th October 2013
  #10
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Originally Posted by brockorama View Post
I don't come from the EDM world, so I can't comment on instrumental hooks and such, and what makes that great. But I love it in the club.

From the Rock, pop, country mainstream, AC, lyrical hooks arena, I see huge canyons of difference between what affects me and what, simply does not.

I spend all of my time, well most, turning phrases and trying to simplify rhyme counterpoints, mixing metaphor and day to day happenings effortlessly for the listener to bathe in. It's the hardest thing I've ever done. It is only easy for a handful of naturals, and the rest have to work at it. It's like that in anything, really. You always have your Orrs and Gretzky's. The rest are lunch box guys busting their ass for extra ice time. That's me, and I still love it !!!
Our taste in music may differ Brock , but I can identify with effort. It is as equally gratifying as it is frustrating. I feel equally cursed and blessed somedays , and the effort it takes to get it heard by the right people is much much more difficult than the process of making the actual tracks.
#11
8th October 2013
Old 8th October 2013
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Originally Posted by 2ndMOUSE View Post
but I can identify with effort. It is as equally gratifying as it is frustrating. I ffel equally cursed and blessed somedays ,
2ND mouse, I feel you and what you describe amounts to every tortured artist I have encountered thus far...it simply has never been easy to get a break.

But it used to be easy to be a FAN. I was a fan wayyyyy before my interest turned to writing and production.

I knew when I saved enough money, there would be a choice I had to make for my 9 dollars. My smalltown variety store only had the latest top record company offerings, and each was sure to please in some form or another.

Ahhhh the good ol days lol ---I am quickly becoming a get off my lawn guy, I fear.

Surprising really some venture capital people have not put together a Best Music On PLanet Dot Com type of subscription music site. ---Let me clarify....not a "pennies per listen" type shit......but a REAL screening process where only the top 200 albums in the world can be streamed and enjoyed for $10 a month ($30 if you want downloads) or only mail order BluRays with all the content the band has ever produced including all photos and demos and videos. In any case it would disuade piracy...and make people proud once again that they are supporting artists and helping to contribute to the future of the artform.

Netflix has already proven the model. People will pay for simplicity and quality. It just needs to be thought out well, with more artists than suits building the model.

I am just wishful thinking, out loud, I apologise. Just thinking a major paradigm shift is needed in music, and where will it come from?
#12
8th October 2013
Old 8th October 2013
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Originally Posted by 2ndMOUSE View Post
Thanks Wally.
I like bbc6 a lot. Theres a great balance and so much great music on it. I attempted to get my music on there as thats the kinda station id love to get played on , so I went to the bbc site , and registered for "bbc introducing" and submitted some tracks to the bbc , hoping they'd get picked up by bbc6 , but they only get as far as the local satellite bbc stations in my area , on which ive been played a handful of times , and im grateful of. One of the djs bought one of my albums even though I offered to send him a free copy. I was even fortunate enough to get a half hour mix played , and on one occasion there was a special programme focussed on electronic music from northern ireland , that was broadcast on the local station but relayed through radio 1 , so even though it was at 3am , ive had airplay on radio 1. I even have a prestigious radio 1 dj following me on soundcloud , but they never play my music on the station and never comment or listen to the tracks.
I need to be able to target bbc6 djs directly without having to go through the filters and end up getting dished out to local subsidiary satellite stations , so how would I do that ?
Hi, Tom Robinson has a yearly Castaway event, check it out, he's a very friendly guy, I've spoken to him a few times, maybe worth going along and having a word, it's a sort of yearly concert he has, in a small venue, with guests, people he likes play these events. His tastes are very broad, he seems to play a wide range of music. The gigs are normally in London though.....

Hope this helps.......

WB.
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#13
8th October 2013
Old 8th October 2013
  #13
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Originally Posted by wallyburger View Post
Hi, Tom Robinson has a yearly Castaway event, check it out, he's a very friendly guy, I've spoken to him a few times, maybe worth going along and having a word, it's a sort of yearly concert he has, in a small venue, with guests, people he likes play these events. His tastes are very broad, he seems to play a wide range of music. The gigs are normally in London though.....

Hope this helps.......

WB.
Well , it would cost about £400 for me and the wife to do that , so although its a good idea , its not do-able right now.
I have however , turned my radio on again and been listening to bbc6 , cos I'd forgotten about it , so thats a goal I can set , and aim for , but I need to find out how to target individual djs , by maybe seeing if they have a dropbox or something , so thanks for that suggestion.
Getting played once is achievable. Getting played consistently is the tough part , but I'll start with what I know to do now , and try to seize the moment.
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#14
8th October 2013
Old 8th October 2013
  #14
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2ND mouse, I feel you and what you describe amounts to every tortured artist I have encountered thus far...it simply has never been easy to get a break.
Yup thats it Brock. Simultaneously the source of my highest peaks and deepest lows. I often wonder why we artists put ourselves through this in the first place ?
I console myself with stories of famous people who were initially , and repeatedly rejected , like the beatles , jk rowling , walt disney , steven spielberg , colonel saunders etc....but some days I just want to throw my hands up in the air.
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8th October 2013
Old 8th October 2013
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Originally Posted by 2ndMOUSE View Post
Yup thats it Brock. Simultaneously the source of my highest peaks and deepest lows. I often wonder why we artists put ourselves through this in the first place ?
I console myself with stories of famous people who were initially , and repeatedly rejected , like the beatles , jk rowling , walt disney , steven spielberg , colonel saunders etc....but some days I just want to throw my hands up in the air.
We put ourselves through whatever it is, because we have no choice, it's just in some of us, music. Success is a lot of different things to a lot of different people, to me, success so far is being alive, and to be able to appreciate all this totally wild shit we call music. My advice, explore every avenue, work hard at it, do as much as you think is humanly possible and beyond to take yourself forward, that's all you can do. This is now coming from the heart, and that is, "stay focused" don't get distracted, I did, met a girl and got married, sold my studio, and lost a career, but you could say that I wasn't hungry enough for it so........ .
We do have a problem, artistic people, we are artistic, not business men, traditionally that stuff has been done by others, via the record company, now all that's virtually gone. So we are expected to be creative, PR agents, accountants, distributors and promoters, sorry, doesn't work like that. Don't know about you, but I want to be recording, not slaving over a balance sheet or trying to promote myself, things that most creative people actually haven't got a clue about. Long live the record company, and the big budgets, there were a lot of rip-offs, but without that big machine it's becoming increasingly difficult for talent to make it, basically, end of story.

WB.
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#16
8th October 2013
Old 8th October 2013
  #16
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Originally Posted by wallyburger View Post
We put ourselves through whatever it is, because we have no choice, it's just in some of us, music. Success is a lot of different things to a lot of different people, to me, success so far is being alive, and to be able to appreciate all this totally wild shit we call music. My advice, explore every avenue, work hard at it, do as much as you think is humanly possible and beyond to take yourself forward, that's all you can do. This is now coming from the heart, and that is, "stay focused" don't get distracted, I did, met a girl and got married, sold my studio, and lost a career, but you could say that I wasn't hungry enough for it so........ .
We do have a problem, artistic people, we are artistic, not business men, traditionally that stuff has been done by others, via the record company, now all that's virtually gone. So we are expected to be creative, PR agents, accountants, distributors and promoters, sorry, doesn't work like that. Don't know about you, but I want to be recording, not slaving over a balance sheet or trying to promote myself, things that most creative people actually haven't got a clue about. Long live the record company, and the big budgets, there were a lot of rip-offs, but without that big machine it's becoming increasingly difficult for talent to make it, basically, end of story.

WB.
Not to mention making album covers , building a website , creating banners , headers , avatars , setting up a PRS account , trying to update multiple accounts with interesting content , then finding a few hours to make new tracks...It really is a multi-disciplined career choice.
I enjoy most of that , but its a pain putting in so much effort , so much of yourself personally....imbueing that sword with your spirit , and then meeting nothing but apathy.
The same happened to Vincent Van Gogh. He sold one painting in his lifetime , to a freind. How his paintings are valued at £240 million. Yet , all that time , all those rejections , and unbeknown to anyone else , he was a visionary , ahead of his time. An undiscovered genius with no luck on his side.
#17
9th October 2013
Old 9th October 2013
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In my town, we have two FM stations dedicated to independent music by small unknown artists. One is a college station and the other is operated by a benevolent billionaire as his personal project. I can't listen to either because most of what they play is pure trash that is painful to listen to. I've certainly come across independent music from unknown musicians that is excellent, don't get me wrong, but most is junk. And the problem is that there are MILLIONS of people making music in home studios today. It's like buying a Powerball lottery ticket where there are lots of hopeful players but few actual winners.

What differentiates you from the masses described above that makes your music worth listening to? Maybe you have a good answer, maybe not. I've had to ask myself the same question.
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#18
9th October 2013
Old 9th October 2013
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What differentiates you from the masses described above that makes your music worth listening to? Maybe you have a good answer, maybe not. I've had ask myself the same question.
Its very easy to answer Frank.
My songs are like my children , my creations. Im proud of them.
#19
9th October 2013
Old 9th October 2013
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Its very easy to answer Frank.
My songs are like my children , my creations. Im proud of them.
OK, so why should anyone listen? You haven't explained what differentiates you from the masses.
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#20
9th October 2013
Old 9th October 2013
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Originally Posted by Frank_Case View Post
OK, so why should anyone listen?
They were created out of love , out of passion , not just a fad , or a whim.
I've spent an inordinate amount of time , looping things over and over for hours on end , trying every possible combination of notes until I found the right ones that had life in them.
My music has stories , it has meaning , it can be melancholic in one track and full of joie de vivre in the next.
My music is real. It comes from the heart. Its personal , but also experimental , and I will never do the same thing twice.
I create electronic music that I want to be remembered.
A lot of current dance music will be forgotten about 2 weeks after its released , but I grew up listening to classic albums , that stayed in the charts for months. I aim to make music that will stand the test of time , and still sound good 10 years from now , in a similar way to pink floyd , boards of canada , deep purple , neil young etc....
I Listen to absolutely everything , and Im a sponge , absorbing everything I can , then I end up with unusual fusions , and different angles on things.
#21
9th October 2013
Old 9th October 2013
  #21
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Originally Posted by 2ndMOUSE View Post
Its very easy to answer Frank.
My songs are like my children , my creations. Im proud of them.
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Originally Posted by 2ndMOUSE View Post
They were created out of love , out of passion , not just a fad , or a whim.
I've spent an inordinate amount of time , looping things over and over for hours on end , trying every possible combination of notes until I found the right ones that had life in them.
If you talk to just about anyone in the arts, whether it's a painter, a sculptor, a playwright, or a songwriter, very commonly they will tell you that the creations that meant the most to them personally were never the ones their admirers liked best. Conversely, they will often say that their most successful creations were the ones they personally liked the least, or had the least sentimental value to them. (This is definitely true in my own experience, both as a songwriter and a writer of prose. )

The point is that to someone hearing your music- especially if they don't know you personally- all they hear is what they bring to it. They don't know or care how hard you worked on it. They can't hear your emotional or practical investment. While I know that it can be a bummer when your audience doesn't share your opinions/preferences, I'd argue that this is part of the beauty of art- that it is what the observer/listener/reader makes of it. You put something out there and it grows into something that you never expected in the minds of people who experience it.

Now, if you're wondering why you can't get other visitors to this or other forums to give you constructive feedback, please keep in mind that at any given minute of the day, there are literally several thousand people visiting this forum (they used to show the visitor stats on the main page but I don't see them now). And of the many thousands of people who come here regularly, 9 out of every 10 probably have some songs of theirs they'd love for you to hear and comment on. Now you've expressed some very dismissive opinions here on music by anyone who doesn't meet your personal musical standards and work ethic, but please remember what I said earlier- your audience (or potential audience, rather) doesn't share your tastes or criteria as to which music is worthwhile. If you want to stand out, you need to do more than post a song to a music forum full of people busy posting their own songs. And going on about how much more serious a musician you are than anyone else making music these days is probably not the most productive approach for someone attempting to build a fan base.
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9th October 2013
Old 9th October 2013
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Originally Posted by UltimateOutsider View Post
If you talk to just about anyone in the arts, whether it's a painter, a sculptor, a playwright, or a songwriter, very commonly they will tell you that the creations that meant the most to them personally were never the ones their admirers liked best. Conversely, they will often say that their most successful creations were the ones they personally liked the least, or had the least sentimental value to them. (This is definitely true in my own experience, both as a songwriter and a writer of prose. )

The point is that to someone hearing your music- especially if they don't know you personally- all they hear is what they bring to it. They don't know or care how hard you worked on it. They can't hear your emotional or practical investment. While I know that it can be a bummer when your audience doesn't share your opinions/preferences, I'd argue that this is part of the beauty of art- that it is what the observer/listener/reader makes of it. You put something out there and it grows into something that you never expected in the minds of people who experience it.

Now, if you're wondering why you can't get other visitors to this or other forums to give you constructive feedback, please keep in mind that at any given minute of the day, there are literally several thousand people visiting this forum (they used to show the visitor stats on the main page but I don't see them now). And of the many thousands of people who come here regularly, 9 out of every 10 probably have some songs of theirs they'd love for you to hear and comment on. Now you've expressed some very dismissive opinions here on music by anyone who doesn't meet your personal musical standards and work ethic, but please remember what I said earlier- your audience (or potential audience, rather) doesn't share your tastes or criteria as to which music is worthwhile. If you want to stand out, you need to do more than post a song to a music forum full of people busy posting their own songs. And going on about how much more serious a musician you are than anyone else making music these days is probably not the most productive approach for someone attempting to build a fan base.

wow , you really ran with that and stretched it didnt you ?
The only people I dismissed were the people that we all know , aren't putting their heart and soul into it.
I never dismissed anyone elses music here on the forum. In fact , I very clearly stated at the start that it was every forum that has some form of music cafe , listening booth , or whatever , that has a general malaise so dont try and demonise me for saying what everyone is thinking , and start putting words in my mouth. The music industry is a mess because its oversaturated with a lot of unimaginative and very mediocre music. That was my point.
I wasn't setting myself up to be something Im not ok. I know I have a long way to go. I wondered when someone would come in here and start trolling , but then , it is the moan zone , so i guess I should have expected as much.
#23
9th October 2013
Old 9th October 2013
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Originally Posted by Frank_Case View Post
OK, so why should anyone listen? You haven't explained what differentiates you from the masses.
We don't know Frank, any of us.

Music as the focal point, died years ago, now it's over subscribed, it's been composted and composted over and over and over, sampled, reconstituted, etc etc etc. Since global communication, music has become something that most people do as an adjunct to something else, very few still manage to make a living, or a career whatever you want to call it. Quite simply, we have to change our perspective, times are changing, when one thing disappears we go off and do something else, tough shit, but that's the way it is. I ve been making paintings, and collages, loads of them, about 80 so far, I love it, I've actually been spending more time on those than on music. I got ill and ended up in hospital, while there I made use of the art room, and haven't looked back, it's great. I don't have any grand ideas about my art, I just love doing it, it's fun, the last thing I want to do is get into that frame of mind where you start to think of it as a potential career, like I used to think about music, the enjoyable thing about my art is that I don't attach any other agenda to it apart from having fun! and seeing my personality spewed out all over a canvas. You should really think about this emotional thing, Mouse was trying to say something similar, what does differentiate a lot of music from all the bland crap out there is stuff that actually does come from the heart, stuff done with conviction and passion. You can tell, it can be the most atonal experimental whatever, but you can always tell if it's being done with conviction, like I can tell when I hear a young dude or dudess trying to emote false sentiment over the latest bit of trash you hear on mainstream radio, like yeah...........I don't think so.
We are entertainers, bottom line, no matter what type of music we play, It's a great life being an entertainer, lots of people want to do it, it's tough fighting with the others treading on your hands on the way up. I like the way you think about your music Mouse, like your children, carry on like that, whether you have a career or not, that's the right way to think about it.

WB.
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#24
9th October 2013
Old 9th October 2013
  #24
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Moto Shinusai

Just had a listen, I like it.
Interesting sounds, involving, good production, haven't heard anything exactly like it, that's for sure, it's got an edge, interesting veneer of distortion on some of the sounds, like your hearing them through a screen. Only criticism I would have is that the beats could do with a bit more variation, but that may not be where you want the focus to be. And besides, I'm not the best judge really, I'm a fairly beatless trance head experimentalist, but I like it and so would lots of others, if I heard this on 6 I'd wonder who it was. The reverb at the end would have been nice if it decayed slowly into oblivion.

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9th October 2013
Old 9th October 2013
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Originally Posted by wallyburger View Post
We don't know Frank, any of us.

Music as the focal point, died years ago, now it's over subscribed, it's been composted and composted over and over and over, sampled, reconstituted, etc etc etc. Since global communication, music has become something that most people do as an adjunct to something else, very few still manage to make a living, or a career whatever you want to call it. Quite simply, we have to change our perspective, times are changing, when one thing disappears we go off and do something else, tough shit, but that's the way it is. I ve been making paintings, and collages, loads of them, about 80 so far, I love it, I've actually been spending more time on those than on music. I got ill and ended up in hospital, while there I made use of the art room, and haven't looked back, it's great. I don't have any grand ideas about my art, I just love doing it, it's fun, the last thing I want to do is get into that frame of mind where you start to think of it as a potential career, like I used to think about music, the enjoyable thing about my art is that I don't attach any other agenda to it apart from having fun! and seeing my personality spewed out all over a canvas. You should really think about this emotional thing, Mouse was trying to say something similar, what does differentiate a lot of music from all the bland crap out there is stuff that actually does come from the heart, stuff done with conviction and passion. You can tell, it can be the most atonal experimental whatever, but you can always tell if it's being done with conviction, like I can tell when I hear a young dude or dudess trying to emote false sentiment over the latest bit of trash you hear on mainstream radio, like yeah...........I don't think so.
We are entertainers, bottom line, no matter what type of music we play, It's a great life being an entertainer, lots of people want to do it, it's tough fighting with the others treading on your hands on the way up. I like the way you think about your music Mouse, like your children, carry on like that, whether you have a career or not, that's the right way to think about it.

WB.
Yeah , that is right on the nail. The bit about conviction is probably a more succinct way of putting it than I managed to do. That was the word I was lookinf for , or at least part of it anyway. Its difficult to explain the abstract.

That track....yeah , its old now , but that one was on the cover dvd of computer music magazine , and graham massey ( of 808 state ) gave it a favourable review in the magazine.
I couldnt believe it at the time. Its not without its faults though , and there are a few things I'd change if I were doing it now Wally. I dont think ive ever made a track that I can say was 100% finished. I mean , they always seem to be at the time , but a year later you have learnt more about the production process , and could always make it better.
I guess this is why there are so many remasters made , even with huge acts like pink floyd or the beatles. Sometimes its only right at that moment , but the trick , and what im aiming at , is to make something that I'll also be satisfied with five years from now as well.
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9th October 2013
Old 9th October 2013
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the trick , and what im aiming at , is to make something that I'll also be satisfied with five years from now as well.
Yeah, some tracks I do are like that, it is really strange, sometimes you can get caught up in focusing on a microscopic detail of a mix and not even see major faults elswhere, like a photographer looking through the girders of a pylon to take a picture of a sunset, he only notices the legs of the pylon when he gets it in the editor ! he was too busy looking at the sunset, and wasnt even aware of the pylon at the time.
I finished a track the other day and put it to bed, so to speak, I listened to it last night while I was in bed, really relaxed, and the guitar had this really boxy lower mid thing going on that completely distracted me from the rest of the music, god knows how I missed that ! Now I have to EQ the stereo master to get rid of it, not ideal but I don't have the orginal multi-track mix. Really annoying.
I said somewhere else that about a third of all I've done is of any use, if that, but at the time it all probably sounded brilliant to me, time is the judge as you say.......

WB.
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9th October 2013
Old 9th October 2013
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I can totally identify with that Wally. Ive lost count of the number of times I've just finished a track , and because I'd been listening to it for 15 hours straight , my ears had kinda adjusted my own inbuilt EQ to accept the balance , even though a few hours after I upload it , I notice the holes , the muffles , or whatever. This is why 3rd person feedback is so vital , because after a long session mixing and adjusting , re-adjusting EQ , compressor balance etc.... , the mind begins to accept the tone , and the spectral balance , even if it is skewed.
Im generally happy with the actual notes , and the musical content , but a lot of the time im less than happy with the balance of the mix , and the 3rd person opinion is invaluable to me , because they can listen without that personal attachment , and their ears havent become biased towards the mix.
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9th October 2013
Old 9th October 2013
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Mix fixed, automation, 6db reduction at 250 in Reaper. Now guitar doesn't sound so bloomy.
I wish careers could be fixed so easily...........

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9th October 2013
Old 9th October 2013
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Mix fixed, automation, 6db reduction at 250 in Reaper. Now guitar doesn't sound so bloomy.
I wish careers could be fixed so easily...........

WB.
Good job !
I love FL Studio , but if I were to switch to another DAW , reaper would be the one , mostly because of the way it can be skinned. I like the look of the mixer too , but im not so used to traditional sequencers and after trying cubase with its strange audio/midi track selection , it really put me off. Seems strange to like a daw for its aesthetics but if you're gonna stare at something for 15 hours straight , you wanna be inspired , so yeah...the skins !
Apparently there are plans for official gui redesign in fl 12 , which will definitely be welcome .
Glad you got the track fixed. The conveyor belt rolls on. On to the next......
#30
10th October 2013
Old 10th October 2013
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Probably not what you want to hear me say but . . .

Once you stop wanting to hear feedback, is when your music is starting to be really good. If you are relying on others for validation then you probably aren't 100% happy with what you're doing as an artist.

Look at yourself as an artist first. Is the music your making representing exactly what you want? It's hard . . . it took me 10 years to get there. I'm jealous of these kids who found out so quickly (or had help).

I wouldn't rely on feedback. I would rely on your gut and your heart. Any production tips or songwriting tips can be asked on the appropriate forums, but I dont think it helps any for people to actually hear the music . . . simply because everyone likes different things and their bias may affect their feedback.

If I write a song now and someone doesn't like it, they can eat dirt, because I know it's exactly what I want to present.

Last edited by subby33; 10th October 2013 at 06:00 AM.. Reason: typos
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