Who can actually afford to spend this kind of cash on audio info..

[joelpatterson]

Just a guess, here... but I don't really think anyone, deep down in their heart of hearts, expects any kind of grand revelations or life-changing insights-- of course I could be wrong, perhaps Tony Masserati asks for silence in the room and says, "Look-- you have a bunch of knobs and switches and faders at your disposal-- the trick is to adjust them until the music sounds better than it did, no-- until it sounds really good"-- that might be worth five Ben Franklins, but isn't it more akin to taking the tour through Buckingham Palace? Just so you can say you've been there? You've hob-nobbed with some of the finest wizards of the era?

And then think of what the people like Tony must be feeling-- it ain't exactly a high profile gig, to put it mildly....

[evosilica]

rich people, i guess

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Joe Haze

Just putting it out there.. I know FullSnail is like 100k, but I pose the question who can afford to drop $500.00 for a day of (instruction) or 6k for a week in a studio with some legend.

WHO has this disposable income and what do you hope to really learn in a few days?

What happened to roughing it for years working your way up the ladder while eating hot dogs.. >??

For $300.00 a day I will teach you how to wrap cables and use a compressor.

$500 for a day of mixing masterclass might well be better money spent than a 3yr degree for some!

Who can afford it? Anyone who lays off the beer for a month maybe?

What happened to roughing it? Possibly the closure of studios and the lack of associated positions.

A lot of people taking these classes don't want to be pro engineers anyway...they want to be able to mix and record their own material a bit better...

[iluvatar]

Originally Posted by Joe Haze

Just putting it out there.. I know FullSnail is like 100k, but I pose the question who can afford to drop $500.00 for a day of (instruction) or 6k for a week in a studio with some legend.

WHO has this disposable income and what do you hope to really learn in a few days?

What happened to roughing it for years working your way up the ladder while eating hot dogs.. >??

For $300.00 a day I will teach you how to wrap cables and use a compressor.

$6000 is a lot cheaper than "roughing it for years."

If you can pick up a couple tips that improve your gain and allow you to get more (better paying) business, it could very well be worthwhile.

-Dan.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by iluvatar

... a couple tips that improve your gain ....

Even if you meant "improve your game," I wonder if this is true at all.

Little tips that improve your game seem like the essential "non-transferable" item-- they're always the result (in my world) of slogging through challenging circumstances and gradually realizing that with your gear, your habits, your approach, and your goals, there are indeed certain reliable shortcuts or processes that just work, whatever the reason why-- things that work brilliantly for Eddie Kramer are for him alone, probably, in the larger context.

Now-- if these workshops slogged you through challenging circumstances where the results mattered, where if your production didn't cut the mustard and you'd be buried alive and there ain't no bail-- maybe they'd be worthwhile! Casually hanging out and shooting the breeze with even the most exalted practitioners with long lists of credits... sounds more like darts in the pub instead of a learning experience.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Even if you meant "improve your game," I wonder if this is true at all.

Little tips that improve your game seem like the essential "non-transferable" item-- they're always the result (in my world) of slogging through challenging circumstances and gradually realizing that with your gear, your habits, your approach, and your goals, there are indeed certain reliable shortcuts or processes that just work, whatever the reason why-- things that work brilliantly for Eddie Kramer are for him alone, probably, in the larger context.

Now-- if these workshops slogged you through challenging circumstances where the results mattered, where if your production didn't cut the mustard and you'd be buried alive and there ain't no bail-- maybe they'd be worthwhile! Casually hanging out and shooting the breeze with even the most exalted practitioners with long lists of credits... sounds more like darts in the pub instead of a learning experience.

I disagree a little here... I'm certainly no EK, but I've done a few "masterclasses" (I use the term with a little disrespect!) to students of varying levels of ability. Some of the misconceptions and bad working practices are quite astounding (although I probably make all the same mistakes editing video!). Even if they only remember a few tips, you can improve recordings and mixes vastly.

For example - checking phase on a kit (most colleges don't seem to emphasise this), or reverb use ( how many students like to bury their sound in big hall verbs? Even just saying something like "if you're not sure, stuck to a chamber or plate instead of hall for vox; the faster the song the shorter the reverb; darker rather than brighter" can make a huge difference). Use of filtering and shelving.

With a few small tips, you CAN correct a load of basic errors and make a difference in an afternoon. It'll still mean further work on the student's behalf, but it's worthwhile.

Another personal example - I spent a few hours 1 on 1 with an assistant I work with sometimes, helping her with one of her mixes. The difference between what she sent me initially, and what she produced after our run-through was astounding - and most of what I'd done was just nudges in the right direction, she did the hard work.

You can't turn someone into an expert overnight, but you can shepherd them along what you see as the right path.

So yeah - I'm biased I guess, and part of the fun of these things IS the hobnobbing and the "wow, it's xx the big time mixer". But I'd love to attend a masterclass with one of those guys, and I'm sure it would benefit my work.

[arrowood101]

I find it more sad that engineers feel the need to do these, because of lack of funds in the industry (not that the engineers that are doing these are any where near poor). Just feel most wouldn't do them if it was like the past and you could just make a good living from engineering.

[kafka]

Like who? Bruce Swedein was offering classes a few years ago. I think it would be well worth it to spend a week with him, just so he can point out what *he* listens for.

[joelpatterson]

To each their particular own... I don't mean to discount the value of masterclassing, certainly not the very valuable directions I've been pointed in at crucial junctures, even the mildly curious thrill of watching an expert at work...

But then overall, to describe these seminars as "pathetic wannabe's consorting with pseudo has-beens, raking in the dough by trading on their fading names, everyone lost in the pretense that something valuable is happening," that's not too harsh I hope?

[Piranhadrum]

Money or roughing, either you have IT or you don't. IT meaning having the talent to do audio and make your path to success. School or roughing it won't get one anywhere, unless their is a natural IT factor.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

To each their particular own... I don't mean to discount the value of masterclassing, certainly not the very valuable directions I've been pointed in at crucial junctures, even the mildly curious thrill of watching an expert at work...

But then overall, to describe these seminars as "pathetic wannabe's consorting with pseudo has-beens, raking in the dough by trading on their fading names, everyone lost in the pretense that something valuable is happening," that's not too harsh I hope?

I think calling anyone willing to learn " pathetic" is a little harsh! Especially someone putting in the time and money to do it...usually it's easier just to get on GS and fake it...

[arrowood101]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

I think calling anyone willing to learn " pathetic" is a little harsh! Especially someone putting in the time and money to do it...usually it's easier just to get on GS and fake it...

Aren't these events single days? As someone that has been an assistant engineer in studios, I just don't see how you could learn too much in one day. Especially when that day includes social and meal times. Little alone the engineer isn't doing real work in their regular studio.

I find what has helped me the most over the years is being stuck in studios, assisting, while other engineers are working for hours. After months/years of this it does wonders to train your ears.

I find these events more like the meet and greets that sports teams do. Rich fans pay silly amounts to get to go on the field and toss a ball around with their favorite athlete. Can be a cool experience, but has little to do with actually becoming a professional athlete.

[kafka]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

To each their particular own... I don't mean to discount the value of masterclassing, certainly not the very valuable directions I've been pointed in at crucial junctures, even the mildly curious thrill of watching an expert at work...

But then overall, to describe these seminars as "pathetic wannabe's consorting with pseudo has-beens, raking in the dough by trading on their fading names, everyone lost in the pretense that something valuable is happening," that's not too harsh I hope?

So I take it you're not offering a class?

[kennybro]

This feels like people trading on their famous names. Like those Rock Camps where you hang out with a "back in the day" rock star for a few days. Both students and instructors; people with excess time on their hands. Hard to see anyone learning anything in a day or two that's going to deliver significant impact.

I've been to film production versions, where you hang out with the DP's, gaffers and such from major features. These folks know a lot, but knowing and teaching are two different things entirely. We usually ended up in some pub, listening to Hollywood war stories.

The hanging out part is fun, as long as someone else is paying the tab.

[arrowood101]

Originally Posted by kennybro

This feels like people trading on their famous names. Like those Rock Camps where you hang out with a "back in the day" rock star for a few days. Both students and instructors; people with excess time on their hands. Hard to see anyone learning anything in a day or two that's going to deliver significant impact.

Yep exactly. Also doubt you would see half the engineers doing it if the industry wasn't in the toilet.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by kafka

So I take it you're not offering a class?

Oh, hey, wait a minute-- I take it all back!

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by arrowood101

Aren't these events single days? As someone that has been an assistant engineer in studios, I just don't see how you could learn too much in one day. Especially when that day includes social and meal times. Little alone the engineer isn't doing real work in their regular studio.

I find what has helped me the most over the years is being stuck in studios, assisting, while other engineers are working for hours. After months/years of this it does wonders to train your ears.

I find these events more like the meet and greets that sports teams do. Rich fans pay silly amounts to get to go on the field and toss a ball around with their favorite athlete. Can be a cool experience, but has little to do with actually becoming a professional athlete.

Well, I've personally done 6 hr day sessions that people tell me they've got useful info out of...so I'd hope a "name" guy could give you way more!

I think the "mix with the masters" courses are several days aren't they?

Obviously learning as an assistant is better - but that opportunity isn't there for many guys, not to mention that many on these courses have no professional aspirations anyway.

As I said above, when I've done these things it's not been about teaching someone to mix or record, it's been about giving them a starting point to build from, hopefully helping them avoid basic mistakes and giving some useful tips you might not discover quickly on your own. I've never attended a MC from one of the true masters, but I'd hope it would be a similar thing at a higher level - lots of tips, tricks and things to try.

So far we've heard from sceptics and me who's biased, plus a few open minds. Anyone attended one of these things? Positive/negative experiences?

I guess in a way it's "sad" that name engineers "have" to do this for money. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure CLA and the like don't need the money, so maybe they just enjoy giving back a little?

[arrowood101]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Well, I've personally done 6 hr day sessions that people tell me they've got useful info out of...so I'd hope a "name" guy could give you way more!

I think the "mix with the masters" courses are several days aren't they?

Obviously learning as an assistant is better - but that opportunity isn't there for many guys, not to mention that many on these courses have no professional aspirations anyway.

As I said above, when I've done these things it's not been about teaching someone to mix or record, it's been about giving them a starting point to build from, hopefully helping them avoid basic mistakes and giving some useful tips you might not discover quickly on your own. I've never attended a MC from one of the true masters, but I'd hope it would be a similar thing at a higher level - lots of tips, tricks and things to try.

So far we've heard from sceptics and me who's biased, plus a few open minds. Anyone attended one of these things? Positive/negative experiences?

I guess in a way it's "sad" that name engineers "have" to do this for money. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure CLA and the like don't need the money, so maybe they just enjoy giving back a little?

Your "teaching sessions" sound like one on one, would say that is different situation to accounts I have read about the mixing with masters sessions.

Nope never been to one, but there are a fair amount of "accounts" of different people online. More negative then positive, from what I have read. But blame that more on how the internet works then probably reality. I agree if you are into it, they seem like they could be fun for the right person (see analogy of sports teams above). But personally I would say far from truly "educational."

Also some people always need more money. "Mo money mo problems." Even CLA's rates have dropped over the years.

Might of missed it. Why would you say you are "bias" on the subject?

Edit:

Think there might be different "classes" but the few accounts I have read were 1 day events. Where a large portion of the time seemed divided between meals and social time.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by arrowood101

Your "teaching sessions" sound like one on one, would say that is different situation to accounts I have read about the mixing with masters sessions.

Nope never been to one, but there are a fair amount of "accounts" of different people online. More negative then positive, from what I have read. But blame that more on how the internet works then probably reality. I agree if you are into it, they seem like they could be fun for the right person (see analogy of sports teams above). But personally I would say far from truly "educational."

Also some people always need more money. "Mo money mo problems." Even CLA's rates have dropped over the years.

Might of missed it. Why would you say you are "bias" on the subject?

Edit:

Think there might be different "classes" but the few accounts I have read were 1 day events. Where a large portion of the time seemed divided between meals and social time.

I'm biased because in the past I've done masterclasses! (I'm not calling myself a "master" of course...) I've done mainly group stuff actually - at university level and below, although I've also done stuff for the London School of Sound when they ran a 4 day program on different topics.

I don't know, but I think Worlez on here went to one in France...I'll ask him to contribute if he did! One of my friends certainly went...I wouldn't really base an opinion on random rantings online, most people only bother posting stuff if it's negative!

I think the sports team analogy is really not very fitting. chucking a ball around for a few hours - yeah fine for fun, not really the same thing.

How about a couple of days intensive training with the coach of said team? that's more analogous, surely? Or a group class with a pro golfer...a few comments from them on your stance/swing can correct a lifetime of problems....I'd imagine, I don't play golf!

[kosmokrator]

I've been to the Andy Wallace seminar.
It was awesome.
As I'm a pro mixer too, I guess that was the right seminar for me.

Funny how many people here think that a specific piece of gear is worth 5 grand but not a week workshop in France with someone who is at the very top of his game.

Also, if you guess pro mixers wouldn't prefer a (payed) week in a fabulous setting in South France giving a masterclass over sweating over their SSL in NYC, you haven't done enough mixing involving labels, managers, artists etc. breathing down your neck. Or been to La Fabrique.

[kennybro]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Well, I've personally done 6 hr day sessions that people tell me they've got useful info out of...so I'd hope a "name" guy could give you way more!

Don't be so sure in every case. You might be a much better teacher than a lot of "name" guys.

[HellvisPresley]

Greetings, all:
Generally, I tend to agree with Joel on this issue. A young engineer friend in HI flew to the mainland to participate in a three week seminar in Nashville with the esteemed Michael Wagener. Upon arrival, he found himself to be the ONLY student who had coughed up the steep fee, and was treated to the ENTIRE period with one-on-one instruction! The experience totally blew his mind, gave him new confidence and perspective, and was obviously worth the dough. It also instilled a permanent regimen of inquiry which will serve forever.

He was both inexperienced AND receptive - the perfect combination for learning. As to France: there's a more experienced engineer resident at the studio where I rent a suite (nameless) who ADORES CLA. He A/B's his mixes constantly during the process, is greatly influenced by what he reads, highly opinionated on matters of gear, room tuning, and technique, and even teaches a local PT class. He is generally UNRECEPTIVE to ideas from any of the various other engineers (some greatly his senior) that cross his path daily.

With glowing exuberance, he described how upon submitting an "audition" mix, he had been accepted onto the waiting list for the CLA seminar in France. "I'll be one of 14 guys in the room with CLA", he intoned, "Finally I'll be able to learn how to get his snare sound!"....I chuckled with a cynical reply - "Your audition succeeded because you proved yourself to be not entirely a rank amateur, yet not a serious threat as a real pro: Best not to wait around for CLA to drop any useful pearls of wisdom in your lap, but pay close attention to the other 13 fellows at your side, THAT'S your learning opportunity!"

Personally, I walk that talk every day. I never miss a chance to sit in on a session, even if only for a minute. I chat constantly with my friends and peers on subjects various IN PERSON, where the real deal emerges without a forum's constraints. I read, read, read, applying a creative synthesis of ideas to the empirical process which advances our technique.

On to battle - HellvisP.