Hip Hop Secret - VSTs Don't Work..
smccarthy945
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#1
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
  #1
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Thread Starter
Hip Hop Secret - VSTs Don't Work..

For anyone chasing VSTs for Hip Hop production, stop waisting your time because generally they don't work. VSTs have a very thin and unoriginal sounds and don't work well for Hip Hop. For example, most successful producers use a combination of an MPC and hardware keyboard to produce hits.

If you look up Jim Jonsin's (I think I spelled his name right) equipment setup, he uses an MPC for drums and bass and a T1 Virus keyboard for sounds. He rarely samples and uses it for all the sounds for the tracks. It's pretty much all he uses. For example, Lollipop was produced with an 808 kit in the MPC and a sine WAV in the T1 Virus.

Most of all his production videos use the Virus for sounds. If you look at most successful producers that use original sounds and not samples, they are using hardware keyboards. I am not saying this cannot be done with VSTs, however, after studying hours and hours of production videos by well known producers they are doing one of two things:

1. They are using software or MPC for drums and bass and then using samples or chopping them up in the computer or sampler to make a dope track. Just Blaze uses the computer for drums and basslines and then always uses sample chops for music. He rarely deviates from this formula because it works. Kanye uses the same formula as well and it works. They don't use VSTs.

2. For the producers that generally don't sample (IE. Jim Jonsin and Scott Storch), they use hardware keyboards or real instruments. If you watch Scott Storch produce, he uses an ASR-10 or MPC for drums or computer and then a real piano or instruments for the leads and patches. Jim Jonsin uses the same with the Virus.

The only people successfully using computers in total with VSTs are crunk and trap music producers making the orchestal hits with 808s. You never see Kanye West or Jay Z's producers using computers in total with VSTs to make successful tracks.

My point is that I have waisted quite a bit of time trying to use VSTs in total to produce and found that, in my opinion, you don't get a good sound out of them for Hip Hop. I have also found that the keyboard hardware companies put a hell of alot more time into the sound sets and what you can do to customize the sounds vs. VSTs that are rushed out with thinner sounds.

Again, this is just my opinion and I am sure there will be a ton of people who will disagree with me. I have seen a pattern of successful non-sampling producers that use a combination of MPC/ASR and hardware keyboards that seems to work as a proven formula.
#2
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
  #2
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I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong.
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#3
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
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Dayl's Avatar
 

Lol... **** I love this forum.

Tinfoil hat alert
#4
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
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#5
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
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Infinite Ways's Avatar
 

I don't get this post at all lol.
#6
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
  #6
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He's saying software < hardware
#7
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
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mrfortune's Avatar
 

Yeah, um , No
#8
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
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Dayl's Avatar
 

It's strange because the songs on his Myspace sounds as though it was written in Reason or FL using stock sounds etc.

Oh well.
#9
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
  #9
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d1rdyd's Avatar
 

sounds like you cant do it to me. there was a thread recently about dr dre using collous. how do u explain that?
#10
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
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plus u just killed yourself on your own thread. lex luger produced th number one single for jay z and kanye this year..where ha e you been?..i know you heard h.a.m.
#11
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
  #11
Banned
 

Yeah, lex luger made the majority of his beats on a piece of crap desktop computer that he would carry around in his backpack. On FL studio. You can't say you need hardware. I honestly don't think there is a sound difference between digital keyboards and vsts.
#12
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
  #12
Gear nut
 

Wow, posts like this are why I tend to stay away from the HipHop forum. But go ahead OP, spend 3k on a Motif so you can get that "thick" sound
KT1
#13
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
  #13
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I totally appreciate comments on analog synths vs digital - They sound different and anyone that doesn't agree simply has not used both.

Different does not = Better just different.

What does confuse me is when people refer to digital ITB solutions vs Digital OTB or hardware. The only difference is in implementation.

Personally Omnisphere or a synth of that nature will provide some very rich sounding options.

Cant say i agree with the OP i'm afraid and I am an analogue FANBOY haha.
228081
#14
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
  #14
228081
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I take it you know nothing about synths as the Virus TI is essentially a vsti in a fancy overpriced box

Aah. hiphop is still one of the only genres where producers claim to have or think there is "secrets"...oh dear.a little perspective.if you study the principles of audio you'd understand there can be no secrets as it can be only manipulated certain ways.granted,there is alot of variables to those certain ways,but still,none the less it's a variable of an already tried and tested method or methods.

Most rap,rnb and i suppose grime producers (if you're british like me) deviate to hardware for beat producing purely cause it's rooted deep into the culture (akai samplers,ensoniq,808's etc etc),i suppose playing beats in gives beats a more organic fluid feel.this is not to say that all producers NEED hardware to produce good beats,instrumentals,songs.it's a matter of taste and what aesthetic works with one producer to the other.considering culture (a rather intimate one) governs a large part of the rap and hihop scene that is why most producers tend to stick with certain pieces of gear

For example say the juno 106 or the Synthi A (synth in a suitcase) or a linndrum (i think you get the picture) or where considered essential pieces of kit in hiphop and rap by some of the pioneers of certain sounds of rap and hiphop am pretty sure that would be considered a staple in todays producers arsenals. or, maybe even a text and speech :D

To finish up am pretty sure i recall people like timbalands prodigy danja (i think his name is,feel free to correct me)admitted to using an extremely cheesy tinny sounding vst called vanguard which he swarn by and had said timbaland used that same vst on the shock value album and i also believe i recall him saying he does his beats entirely in cubase which is kind of against the mould i suppose with the rather (in my opinion) over rated pro tools being the favourite amongst "pros"

That's just one example,but am sure there is alot more.it's perfectly understandable that you think there is "secrets" within the rap,hiphop production industry when most these producers seem intent on convincing you there is secrets by implying it (i just had a quick browse for a rap production interview and it seems quite common)

I'll hush now cause i think am ranting on.but i think somewhere in that tangent of nonesense there's some point or maybe there isn't......



Johnynotknow
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#15
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
  #15
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Realziment's Avatar
 

First off this post is very misleading for the newbies coming on here asking which vstis have the best hot sauce..

Second of all its wrong. ALL wrong.. Some people referred to some current stuff, but we wont base it all on that because a lot of the current hip hop is awful. in fact most of the mainstream is. And I can tell you so many of the "big guys" are using FL Studio , solely and with stock sounds too. I work in a busy hollywood studio, catering to major label artists only and i see it all the time.

On the other hand, I invest in my sounds and buy from many sources, one being east west, their stuff is amazing and very hard to tell its a VSTi..

But recently while in europe i did not have access to my EW stuff, so I used a piano from NEXUS 2. Nexus 2 IMO sounds great, but i wanted this piano to sound real and nexus is not that type of instrument, i found a patch that came as close as possible, and from there treated it best i could, I used a little reverb, i know i used waves aural exciter, and im not sure what i else without pulling the sessions. But I was complimented and asked more than once on the piano and where i got it.

And the cherry on the cake was a top mix engineer, asked me what i used to record the piano it sounds beautiful..

Sometimes there is no replacement for the beautiful circuitry in hardware, but damn are we close, im comfortable working solely in the box on a lot of projects now. I can get the warmth and i can get the grit, you just have to know what your doing....
#16
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesmondA View Post
This made me epic LOL!
#17
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
  #17
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Didn't your homie snag the big house of pain sample? He's a trumpet player or sax? I met him after a fergie show...

Cool story but maybe that experience doesn't mean all that much about VST's vs anything else...
228081
#18
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
  #18
228081
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You're one of the very few who has been convinced by the authenticity of the sampling involved in nexus then

I have quite an intimate understanding of nexus with me working used to be exclusively with dance music.knowing that i find it very hard to believe that someone asked you "how you recorded it"as the nexus samples are looped (and i stress) VERY VERY badly as authentic is not the sound they produce.(you can literally hear the samples beating and oscillating against one another when they reach their sustain) aka badly crossfaded

Nexus is a modern take on an old 90ies romplers like the roland jv series and the korgs M1 and the E-Mu rompler series (xtreme lead etc).attacks sound extremely synthetic and dramatic as they're meant to pull through dense dance mixes and there is noway they can be mistaken for a real piano (unless you put the hammer of the piano up on a shit load of faders)

Am not bitching,i just had to comment is that is my main qualm with nexus for the price...you'd expect some decently recorded material and not everything to sound like haddaway or snap (90ies dance acts for those who don't know)


Johnynotknow

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#19
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
  #19
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Realziment's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnynotknow View Post
You're one of the very few who has been convinced by the authenticity of the sampling involved in nexus then

I have quite an intimate understanding of nexus with me working used to be exclusively with dance music.knowing that i find it very hard to believe that someone asked you "how you recorded it"as the nexus samples are looped (and i stress) VERY VERY badly as authentic is not the sound they produce.(you can literally hear the samples beating and oscillating against one another when they reach their sustain) aka badly crossfaded

Nexus is a modern take on an old 90ies romplers like the roland jv series and the korgs M1 and the E-Mu rompler series (xtreme lead etc).attacks sound extremely synthetic and dramatic as they're meant to pull through dense dance mixes and there is noway they can be mistaken for a real piano (unless you put the hammer of the piano up on a shit load of faders)

Am not bitching,i just had to comment is that is my main qualm with nexus for the price...you'd expect some decently recorded material and not everything to sound like haddaway or snap (90ies dance acts for those who don't know)


Johnynotknow

Sent from my HTC ChaCha A810e
If you re read my post properly you will see how im quite amazed by the statement, as i agree to nexus not sounding authentic. Re Read and you will understand that. I used this example as an extremity, but its true. Eastwest on the other hand, now they sound authentic to me...
228081
#20
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
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228081
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Aah,my bad."the top mix engineer"was easily convinced then


For pianos i use realsamples (it's a company to avoid confusion).i haven't tried eastwest.though,like you i've heard good things about them though.


Johnynotknow

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#21
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
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Realziment's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnynotknow View Post
Aah,my bad."the top mix engineer"was easily convinced then


For pianos i use realsamples (it's a company to avoid confusion).i haven't tried eastwest.though,like you i've heard good things about them though.


Johnynotknow

Sent from my HTC ChaCha A810e

Maybe easily convinced but was quite happy with what way the piano turned out. Some of us can work magic when we need to. Ill send u a snippet of it when i have more time if you want.. In the mix, if done right, you would have to stress to tell. Even then i dont know if you can call Nexus.

At the end of the day man theres the producers who worry about the sound as a whole and theres producers who worry about the algorithm behind them.. Listening to find out which program a song was made on is not going to get anyone anywhere, and worrying about the specifics is not going to get you a hit record.

Maybe the mix engineer was easily sold. Or maybe i done a nice blend on the mix, hes not on par with the guys i work with these days. Im assisting Jean Marie horvat now, maybe ill ask him his opinion and get back to you. he will probably call my bluff, but who knows.

But i know the best guys are not listening to algorithms there listening to the mix as a whole or the song as a whole... If your worried about the other stuff, best of luck...
#22
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
  #22
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thanks so much for revealing this secret.

i will ditch all my vst's today!!!
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228081
#23
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
  #23
228081
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Realziment View Post
Maybe easily convinced but was quite happy with what way the piano turned out. Some of us can work magic when we need to. Ill send u a snippet of it when i have more time if you want.. In the mix, if done right, you would have to stress to tell. Even then i dont know if you can call Nexus.

At the end of the day man theres the producers who worry about the sound as a whole and theres producers who worry about the algorithm behind them.. Listening to find out which program a song was made on is not going to get anyone anywhere, and worrying about the specifics is not going to get you a hit record.

Maybe the mix engineer was easily sold. Or maybe i done a nice blend on the mix, hes not on par with the guys i work with these days. Im assisting Jean Marie horvat now, maybe ill ask him his opinion and get back to you. he will probably call my bluff, but who knows.

But i know the best guys are not listening to algorithms there listening to the mix as a whole or the song as a whole... If your worried about the other stuff, best of luck...
I wasn't doubting whether or not the nexus preset worked in the context of a mix.as i had already said i've used nexus quite liberally myself in the past and it does work quite well in mixes

My comment was in regards to the authenticity of the sampling in nexus in comparison with a recorded piano and being perceived as a recorded piano

Your replies a little moot mate

Anyways,this is getting a little irrelevent and am derailing the the original posters topic.apologies


Johnynotknow

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#24
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smccarthy945 View Post
The only people successfully using computers in total with VSTs are crunk and trap music producers making the orchestal hits with 808s. You never see Kanye West or Jay Z's producers using computers in total with VSTs to make successful tracks.
I guess you haven't read Ken Lewis' posts here on Gearslutz. If you don't know, he's worked with Kanye West quite a lot, and he's very vocal about his use of software instrumentals. Also, I think his production might be amongst some of the most original around.
#25
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
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Realziment's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by T. Gundersen View Post
I guess you haven't read Ken Lewis' posts here on Gearslutz. If you don't know, he's worked with Kanye West quite a lot, and he's very vocal about his use of software instrumentals. Also, I think his production might be amongst some of the most original around.

Yea and hasn't he used VSTi's to recreate real sounding samples? If im not mistaking..

Quote:
I wasn't doubting whether or not the nexus preset worked in the context of a mix.as i had already said i've used nexus quite liberally myself in the past and it does work quite well in mixes

My comment was in regards to the authenticity of the sampling in nexus in comparison with a recorded piano and being perceived as a recorded piano

Your replies a little moot mate

Anyways,this is getting a little irrelevent and am derailing the the original posters topic.apologies


Johnynotknow
To which I agree, nexus is not a great starting point for an authentic sound. The point of my post, was not only to point out to the OP that VSTi's are very capable, but with a little work you can do more than you can imagine.. I am an advocator of get it right going in.. But like that circumstance, in the studio i was in, the best sound i could find was in nexus to which I made good use of plugins to get it as far as i could.

Exactly key word "moot". Go back to my last response and see why i said moot is key word. Im not trying to get into a huge debate, but some people spend way to much time on the stuff that dont matter rather than the stuff that does..
#26
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
  #26
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dont work for u maybe
#27
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
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Goa-Dubs's Avatar
 

If back in the days of raw gritty dark Hip-Hop(?) made with turntables and basic samplers and r 2 reels/mixers that the future would be an all plugin vst software setup instead? I would have vomited!!!!!!!!! lol.A bit of everything is the compromise imo.Use what you got...Thats 'Hip-Hop..'
#28
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
  #28
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You guys got trolled.
Terrible.
#29
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
  #29
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As my grandmother would say.... "this is a load of malarky!"

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#30
30th October 2012
Old 30th October 2012
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