Horrible Studios To Work With

[Ward Pike]

Take your business elsewhere and be more assertive in future. It sounds as though you're being way too nice to the studios you have dealt with and they're not taking you seriously enough. I.E. Some people mistake kindness (and civility) as weakness.

Move on, my friend. I always try and be as kind as possible to co-workers, clients, session players etc. There are those who look upon that as an opportunity to run roughshod over you... I delete those people from my life.

[jrod9900]

I bitch a lot? Yeah, I am bitching because of this stuff. Rightfully so. I said I'm the easiest person to work with, I don't recall saying I never bitch. If a person treats me good, I do the same.

I just don't get the mentality of these "commercial" facilities. The scene could be amazing here, but I feel like we screw ourselves over fighting each other for business rather than working together.

JROD

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by jrod9900

I bitch a lot? Yeah, I am bitching because of this stuff. Rightfully so. I said I'm the easiest person to work with, I don't recall saying I never bitch. If a person treats me good, I do the same.

I think the first studio stopped calling because after ther third time cancelling, I called and left a pretty assertive voicemail. It wasn't hateful, but it was definitely not the friendly person that he had been dealing with. My guess is he took the easy (which never really is) way out.

I just don't get the mentality of these "commercial" facilities that are nothing more than a bigger project studio ownded by people who know nothing about business and a lot of them know little about making a record.

JROD

I think it's odd because I would literally snap your hand off an bend over backward's for your custom, especially as you seem one of the easier clients to work with. They just seem unprofessional, I normally have a clear deadline and have an in built couple of days to fix any issues or overdubs etc.

[JoRillo]

Sounds to me like you need to poke your chest out more in the future. People are walking all over you because your not maning up and letting them know how it is. If as a paying customer they are disrespecting you, then take your money and business elsewhere.

[DaveE]

It happens. I think some guys get pissed that it's not their gig instead of just being grateful that you're paying them for the studio time. Screw "manning up". Personally, I'd keep my mouth shut and spend elsewhere next time, unless it was really bad (and I'll make sure my buddies know to do the same). BTW, I always bring a little extra so I can give a nice $tip$ and sometimes it ends up staying right in my pocket. BE NICE TO YOUR FREELANCERS or don't book them!

[jrod9900]

Yeah, thanks for the input. I try to be super courteous and professional because some of these studios I've wanted to do more work at. Unfortunately, that never became the case.

On another note, I made a new relationship with another studio here in town since the other place didn't work out. The other guy is great, and I'm sure we will do more work together. He was completely the opposite of that kid. He understands the game, and he is a great at helping you get comfortable in his room. That's the kinda place I want to work. And he had some great gear too!

I guess when one door closes another opens!

Thanks for listening, I never thought I would be as frustrated as I am about this stuff. I guess I expect a certain level of quality and respect when doing business... I'm definitely more forward and vocal at this point.

JROD

[suedesound]

it happens as a freelancer, find the places that are hospitable and work with you, f#ck the other places. find places you like to work with and don't call the other guys back. i've had every thing between not wanting me to be there to going insanely out of their way to make sure i'm comfortable and happy.

[jrod9900]

Yeah, it's funny the differences. There are two specific studios in St. Louis that go out of their way to help you out. It's great. Those will be my homes from now on.

JROD

[heyman]

Originally Posted by jrod9900

Yeah, it's funny the differences. There are two specific studios in St. Louis that go out of their way to help you out. It's great. Those will be my homes from now on. F the other guys.

JROD

Funny thing in this day and age home studios. The larger places should be more conscious and understand that the customer comes first. People want bang for the buck. I say move on... Word of mouth will get around..

Best of luck.

[Makinithappen]

I wouldn't ask you to call out the places you've had trouble with, but out of curiosity which two that you're liking here in town? And what kind of music are you working with?

There are a few really crappy shops around St Louis.. (I'm going to try to not name names here but my least favorite may or may not be named after a planet.) A few others here that have some balls charging people big-boy rates for the privilege of working with interns. Then a couple rich-boy trust-fund places that have the gear but no experience. (sounds like you might be talking about one of these...)

However, there are some good shops here too if you know where to look... I can name a few off the top of my head.

[sawhorse]

I'm always happy to help!

I love when freelance engineers come to work at my place... I take care of them & treat them well. I know what it's like as I was a freelance guy for some time. It's a big reason I put Sawhorse Studios together.

Sorry about your previous endeavors... My suggestion is to just move on. It's wasted energy to bitch (too much) about that stuff. Those people/place exist everywhere, in all walks of life.

cheers!

[jrod9900]

Thanks Sawhorse, I'll have to check your room out sometime! ;-)

JROD

[bwrecordings]

Jason at sawhorse is a good dude!

[jrod9900]

I've been told his kick drums sound like a thousand pounding buffalo hooves and that his vocals resemble a combination of Jesus and Fergie. Quite magical...

JROD

[i_got_screwed]

I think you need to be pushy to get what you want. When i have been polite i have not gotten what i want except when the engineer already respected what i do because he knew me personally. If somebody doesn't know you they will assume they know more than you about everything and think your music or work sucks. With these people you need to push them around to get exactly what you want, if you try to be nice you will waste time and money. When you are paying somebody else, make them your bitch, what you say goes, and the second it doesn't shut the session down and don't pay. When you are paying you are in charge of everything, the dictator of the studio, if at some point the studio tries to rob you of that right even for 30 seconds you owe them nothing. Delete your work and leave. Don't listen to anything they say unless you ask for their opinion, and even then you don't need to listen if you don't like it. If you say "more reverb" and they say "i don't like a lot of reverb", tell them "i don't care what you like, more reverb immediately or this session is over". You pay for the right to do anything you want with the studio except destroy the gear. Use whatever you want anyway you want. Some big name musicians and producers have reputations for being rude or pushy, perhaps this is part of their success and they have already learned the hard way they have to be demanding and insistent to get good results out of studio staff.

[jrod9900]

Good points, I'm sure the success of these guys is showcased by their ability to be pushy.

JROD

[brockorama]

Be assertive but DON'T be something you aren't.

It takes work to manipulate others, and its a lifelong learning curve.

Everyone has a best approach for themselves that works. Last night I got to damp (wallet) a snare, and even change a snare on a drummer who does not take kindly to that type of thing, and it could have come to a heated debate but didn't and the track sounded wayyyyy better. I also told him some BS about Ringo and how he liked to dampen his snare a lot too.

I will lie, but I don't like to argue.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by i_got_screwed

I think you need to be pushy to get what you want. When i have been polite i have not gotten what i want except when the engineer already respected what i do because he knew me personally. If somebody doesn't know you they will assume they know more than you about everything and think your music or work sucks. With these people you need to push them around to get exactly what you want, if you try to be nice you will waste time and money. When you are paying somebody else, make them your bitch, what you say goes, and the second it doesn't shut the session down and don't pay. When you are paying you are in charge of everything, the dictator of the studio, if at some point the studio tries to rob you of that right even for 30 seconds you owe them nothing. Delete your work and leave. Don't listen to anything they say unless you ask for their opinion, and even then you don't need to listen if you don't like it. If you say "more reverb" and they say "i don't like a lot of reverb", tell them "i don't care what you like, more reverb immediately or this session is over". You pay for the right to do anything you want with the studio except destroy the gear. Use whatever you want anyway you want. Some big name musicians and producers have reputations for being rude or pushy, perhaps this is part of their success and they have already learned the hard way they have to be demanding and insistent to get good results out of studio staff.

I agree with your assertion that the paying customer is right...however this working method will go make for a terrible session vibe, and a client the studio won't want back.

I agree a hired engineer shouldn't be saying "I don't like" anything...however, assuming you're hiring an engineer for their ears, and not just as an assistant, to react with "more reverb NOW or this session is over" is just pointless. The customer who doesn't listen to the person they've hired to help, who knows the room a lot better than they do, is likely to leave with an inferior result.

If I had a client like this, firstly I wouldn't tell them my personal likes and dislikes unless asked, but if I suggested something and got met with the response "do that and the session is over" I'd shut up, do my technical best but switch off creatively (which is essentially what the client wants". And never work with them again - or at least double my rates for them.

FWIW there's many more nice, easygoing successful artists and producers than there are rude and pushy ones. IMO (and I've met a lot of these guys) the nice ones have nothing to prove, the rude ones are usually looking for excuses as to why the end result might not be what they want. They're usually the guys blagging it.

I agree with the overall sentiment of it's the client who should be in control of the session, but you can do this and still be a nice guy. The above attitude just says "nightmare client" to me. No-one wants to be, or work with, this guy.

[Makinithappen]

Originally Posted by i_got_screwed

I think you need to be pushy to get what you want. When i have be you want anyway you want. Some big name musicians and producers have reputations for being rude or pushy, perhaps this is part of their success and they have already learned the hard way they have to be demanding and insistent to get good results out of studio staff.

Yeah. Always yell at your waiter too. It will ensure the try really hard to make your dining experience pleasurable and they definitely won't spit in your food.

If someone ever tried talking to me like you suggested or "making me their bitch" in my own studio, they wouldn't have to threaten to shut the session down... They'd lose their deposit and be on the front curb.

[i_got_screwed]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

I agree with your assertion that the paying customer is right...however this working method will go make for a terrible session vibe, and a client the studio won't want back.

I agree a hired engineer shouldn't be saying "I don't like" anything...however, assuming you're hiring an engineer for their ears, and not just as an assistant, to react with "more reverb NOW or this session is over" is just pointless. The customer who doesn't listen to the person they've hired to help, who knows the room a lot better than they do, is likely to leave with an inferior result.

If I had a client like this, firstly I wouldn't tell them my personal likes and dislikes unless asked, but if I suggested something and got met with the response "do that and the session is over" I'd shut up, do my technical best but switch off creatively (which is essentially what the client wants". And never work with them again - or at least double my rates for them.

FWIW there's many more nice, easygoing successful artists and producers than there are rude and pushy ones. IMO (and I've met a lot of these guys) the nice ones have nothing to prove, the rude ones are usually looking for excuses as to why the end result might not be what they want. They're usually the guys blagging it.

I agree with the overall sentiment of it's the client who should be in control of the session, but you can do this and still be a nice guy. The above attitude just says "nightmare client" to me. No-one wants to be, or work with, this guy.

You are right. I wouldn't recommend literally calling a person names or doing anything uncalled for - i was exaggerating, just trying to say if somebody else you don't want taking the session over tries to you need to let them know that since its your money things need to be done your way. But see it from my perspective for a second - i was in a session recently where the engineer suggested doing something, i said no i am not interested in trying that - to which he just started doing it anyway. I was too polite to get rude, but what are you supposed to do when somebody starts wasting 10 or 15 minutes doing something you told them not to do? When being polite doesn't get them to stop obviously more drastic measures need to be taken - as an engineer, you shouldn't put the client in a position of needing to raise their voice or something weird to get their point across. So it is also possible to be a nightmare engineer. Not listening, not doing what is asked, doing what they are asked not to do. Nobody wants to record with the nightmare engineer.

As far as the reverb comment, in theory you are right, but it can go the other way too. I have listened to people who said less reverb, no reverb, despite my want for it. Got the song finished, took it home, the band listened "it needs some reverb", so because i was too polite i wound up with a less than stellar result. Same thing happened with the Bass "more bass please" - "no, that won't sound good". Get the song home . . . can't hear the bass. If the engineer is going to deny the artist's request and force their decision it needs to actually work.

I have never been rude for a second to anybody in any studio - and i have always gotten pushed around and wound up with so-so results. The one engineer that got me the sound i wanted never questioned a preference i had, and decisions i let him make worked well and he didn't attempt to force ideas i wasn't fond of. I am a super polite and mild fellow in person, and i have allowed other people to hijack my session and i haven't always gotten what i want. I will never curse somebody out, but in the future if somebody tries ignoring me when i say lets not waste time doing that i am just going to tell them its not working out and i won't pay, they can delete the session.

I wouldn't be rude if i was working with you Monkey, but i doubt if i said "How about trying some echo on the voice here" you would say "No, not even going to try it, it won't sound good". By all means if you are doing something i like i wouldn't be opposed just because its not my idea. I didn't mean to come across super abrasive, just a sore spot because i have lost a few grand in bad situations and its my fault for not being assertive.

[i_got_screwed]

Originally Posted by Makinithappen

Yeah. Always yell at your waiter too. It will ensure the try really hard to make your dining experience pleasurable and they definitely won't spit in your food.

If someone ever tried talking to me like you suggested or "making me their bitch" in my own studio, they wouldn't have to threaten to shut the session down... They'd lose their deposit and be on the front curb.

A. Dining is not business - music is - and i have never been rude to a waiter in my life, i used to be one so i know what its like. Business is business, when you waste my time you waste my money. Its not personal, just please do what i say, is that not reasonable?

B. Would you ever not comply with a clients wishes to the point that you were wasting their time and ruining the session? Do you not aim to please the client? Have you ever refused a request to see what reverb might sound like on a track?

C. You're overreacting, i was illustrating a point, that is that the person who is paying is in charge and when the person paying doesn't agree with somebody else, the person who is paying gets their way. This is just standard business practice. Obviously i wouldn't call you bitch or be rude or vibey, and likewise i am sure you would try to meet my requests (which are basic things like: more bass in the mix, a little more reverb, i don't like this mic can we try that other one?). You being a professional would probably understand if a client got pissed because you were being very difficult and counter-productive. It would be pretty unprofessional to resist a clients requests and then kick them out and take their money because they were making an issue out of your poor conduct. Plus that would be horrible for business. Most studios won't turn down money. I highly doubt you would kick somebody out for say "Wait, lets not waste any more time doing that ok? Lets move on to doing it like this for now."

The studio is there for the Artist not the Engineer, and in most situations it is the Artist paying the Engineer who usually owns the studio. It would be different if i said "Hey makinithappen can you come with me to so and so's studio to engineer for me and help me produce this track?" and then i tried pushing you around. With most engineers the artist is coming because of the studio, not so much because of the engineer who is there, which is really the wrong way to go about it since as i have learned the engineer really makes the studio good or bad. Sometimes price and location dictates what studio can be used by an Artist so people don't usually have the luxury of picking based on the engineer.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by i_got_screwed

You are right. I wouldn't recommend literally calling a person names or doing anything uncalled for - i was exaggerating, just trying to say if somebody else you don't want taking the session over tries to you need to let them know that since its your money things need to be done your way. But see it from my perspective for a second - i was in a session recently where the engineer suggested doing something, i said no i am not interested in trying that - to which he just started doing it anyway. I was too polite to get rude, but what are you supposed to do when somebody starts wasting 10 or 15 minutes doing something you told them not to do? When being polite doesn't get them to stop obviously more drastic measures need to be taken - as an engineer, you shouldn't put the client in a position of needing to raise their voice or something weird to get their point across. So it is also possible to be a nightmare engineer. Not listening, not doing what is asked, doing what they are asked not to do. Nobody wants to record with the nightmare engineer.

As far as the reverb comment, in theory you are right, but it can go the other way too. I have listened to people who said less reverb, no reverb, despite my want for it. Got the song finished, took it home, the band listened "it needs some reverb", so because i was too polite i wound up with a less than stellar result. Same thing happened with the Bass "more bass please" - "no, that won't sound good". Get the song home . . . can't hear the bass. If the engineer is going to deny the artist's request and force their decision it needs to actually work.

I have never been rude for a second to anybody in any studio - and i have always gotten pushed around and wound up with so-so results. The one engineer that got me the sound i wanted never questioned a preference i had, and decisions i let him make worked well and he didn't attempt to force ideas i wasn't fond of. I am a super polite and mild fellow in person, and i have allowed other people to hijack my session and i haven't always gotten what i want. I will never curse somebody out, but in the future if somebody tries ignoring me when i say lets not waste time doing that i am just going to tell them its not working out and i won't pay, they can delete the session.

I wouldn't be rude if i was working with you Monkey, but i doubt if i said "How about trying some echo on the voice here" you would say "No, not even going to try it, it won't sound good". By all means if you are doing something i like i wouldn't be opposed just because its not my idea. I didn't mean to come across super abrasive, just a sore spot because i have lost a few grand in bad situations and its my fault for not being assertive.

Exactly - I 100% agree. It's the difference between being assertive and aggressive. You can make the point nicely, and a bit firmer, and if the person still doesn't listen then yeah, do what you want.

I was just stating the "all guns blazing" approach isn't right either.

And yes - there are plenty of engineers like you describe, and I wouldn't want to work with them either!

[Thomas W. Bethe]

If you are a normal client working in a normal professional studio then there should be a lot of give and take and very little friction. It sounds like the fit between you and the studio was not good and the "vibe" wasn't there.

Move on and find somewhere you are happy. It is your hard earned money you are spending so you should enjoy what you are doing and find a place where you can be comfortable working.

Today the market is over saturated with people who have a lot of gear but who really don't have the chops to do professional level work. They try and make up for this lack of talent by having a lot of bravado and try and overwhelm you with BS. Sometimes their overdone bravado act gets in the way of them working with clients.

There is also the studio that is run by someone that only has one way of doing everything. It is their way or the highway. Those types of people are sometimes are so focused on doing "their thing" that they forget why they are in business.

Best of luck!

[jrod9900]

Yeah, there's definitely a fine line between being assertive and being a dick.

You do just have to find the right place for you with the right people. The places I'm using now may not truly like me or be my best friends, but at least they are nice/cool to me to my face, and we get a lot of shit done. So, that works for the time being.

JROD

[Makinithappen]

Being a dick doesn't go well with being successful in a service industry...

*snip*

Every pro engineer I know welcomes the opportunity to experiment... Be it reverb or doubles or weird harmonies and effects....ect. I can't say I l know anyone as dogmatic as to say "NO! WE WONT EVEN TRY THAT! YOUR WRONG!"