Software instruments plugins are fools gold.

[dariendaniel]

Hello everyone and good morning.


Thanks to everyone for all the post so far, its been interesting to say the least.

I would like to make something clear, starting this post wasnt about bashing people for low quality sounding music, it was to identify in comparison some of the differences and to identify ones personal path and solution in their particular setup.

I feel Native Instruments and Arturia make some really great software, the integration and intuitive aspects of each are pretty amazing and shows just have far the platform they thrive in has developed.

(please dont cancel my NFR's)

However its time to move into phase II of the topic and to start off I would like to plainly revisit something that we all could agree on.


We are all born on this planet into an ANALOG world by our own definition.

Once delivered, and the smack of life hits our back side, we take in a breath of life and let out a sound. It all starts with one thought, one pulse.
We were created in the analog, and delivered here as well.

As technology evolved to meet the needs and to provide solutions, we then created a subset of analog life and we call that DIGITAL.



Ill stop here for now.


Does anyone have anything enhancing to add to this, either to the left or right?


Oh guys my credit card is almost maxed out feeding all the fishes to the trolls here.

Im jus sayn.

[Simple2nes]

Hmm I like turtles. :o

Sent from my DROID X2 using Gearslutz App

[MoteOfVoid]

The Reason Most ITB mixes don’t Sound as good as Analog mixes (restored)

[benherron.rrr]

I really wish people would shut up about the whole analogue vs digital crap. People should wake up and realise that nobody in the real world cares.

[ZangTumblyTumble]

So, what you're saying is:

Originally Posted by dariendaniel

PLUGINS AS INSTRUMENTS ARE FOOLS GOLD.

...Unless you have NFR copies, in which case they are priceless specimens of audio quality.

I don't have any synths with NFR licences: am I compromising quality because of this? Does the NFRness make them moar analog? Do I need to provide services of an intimate nature to NI and Arturia execs in order to gain the same quality? Inquiring minds want to know.

[dariendaniel]

Originally Posted by ZangTumblyTumble

So, what you're saying is:



...Unless you have NFR copies, in which case they are priceless specimens of audio quality.

I don't have any synths with NFR licences: am I compromising quality because of this? Does the NFRness make them moar analog? Do I need to provide services of an intimate nature to NI and Arturia execs in order to gain the same quality? Inquiring minds want to know.

NFRs have nothing to do with the sound quality , a plugin is a plugin. If you paid or stole it , it's still the same .

I was lucky to do consulting and in 14 months racked up 10k worth of NFRs. So I went ITB and created some great sonic productions.

So I usually skip these twisted antagonistic projective attacks, however keep in mind this topic is geared to be educational.

We hear A vs. D all the time , then it's DCO vs. VCO for the analog heads. Oh true analog vs. VA synths for the outboard heads.

Over the next few days I am going to keep introducing more data.

I know you guys are insulted slightly that some Internet personality is bashing your production methods, please don't be though.

I'm not telling you that your doing anything wrong, however some basic facts of where we came came from and where we are now.

[ZangTumblyTumble]

Originally Posted by dariendaniel

We are all born on this planet into an ANALOG world by our own definition.

Once delivered, and the smack of life hits our back side, we take in a breath of life and let out a sound. It all starts with one thought, once pulse.
We were created in the analog, and delivered here as well.

Um, no. Unless you believe we're living in The Matrix, which would probably be digital. We are born into the physical world. The word 'analog' comes from electrical processing being analogous to things that go on in the physical world. It is as much a modelling process as that used in digital.

[ozy]

is this what EDM people call a "loop-based performance"?

[spaceman]

Originally Posted by dariendaniel

Hello.

THIS THREAD IS FOOLS GOLD.

I have come to this conclusion by way of many hours of comparison, side by side and experimenting with many different forum posting techniques.


DD

There, i corrected it for you .

[Dean Roddey]

You are doomed, man. The ability to data process is vastly more important to almost everyone today than the ability to perform, so digital will ultimately win because it's the data processor's drug of choice.

Unless I absolutely cannot get away with it, I don't use any soft instruments anymore. And the one place I currently absolutely cannot get away with it is drums, so I use BFD (though I play the parts I don't use it because I can data process it to death after the fact.) As soon as I can do those for real, then I'll plug that hole as well. I'd rather make music with real stuff myself.

And now I get to be accused of being a snotty, self-righteous, dinosaur who is spitting on other people's work, too. Isn't it fun? See Jack hate me. Hate me, Jack, hate me.

[doom64]

Originally Posted by dariendaniel

Hello.

This thread is started to compare Analog/Outboard gear to VI plugins'.

Ah yes, I have purchased over the years many a keyboard synths and as a consultant in the music production and recording industry I have made this simple but powerful determination about the whole analog vs. digital thing.

If your intent is to produce and record with the best quality in mind then I am going to say:

PLUGINS AS INSTRUMENTS ARE FOOLS GOLD.

I have come to this conclusion by way of many hours of comparison, side by side and experimenting with many different recording techniques.


If you know different , please join in.

If you agree, lets talk about the setup that lets you integrate and get the best out of both worlds.


Thanks,

DD

My "real instrument", a $300 Casio keyboard, has so-so grand piano samples but when I plug in the MIDI cable to my computer and use software that costs more than the keyboard but a whole lot less than a real grand piano...ahhh music to my ears! Call me a fool all you want, I am going to keep $10,000+ in my pocket and get the same sonic results.

[dariendaniel]

Nice responses from everyone, seriously.

I have a handful of *named* ( insert name drop here ) underground and mainstream producers reading this post and loving it. Btw they are analog heads.

---

Ok I am glad to hear people understand where we live and where we were born, and btw living in the physical world is very Analogous, it is bound to the essence learning and part of evolution.

Thank you for getting the parity of being born and the birth of electronic music.
As far as the matrix goes, yes there is a certain *metaphysical* aspect to creating and electronic sound.

In regards to an analog synthesizer creating a sound, it all starts with an electronic pulse, a charge, a voltage.

It is living and organic.

After that pulse leaves the VCO, it takes on a similar path as every conscious (and maybe unconscious) being does as they follow the path of life.

The pulse travels along the analog signal path passing through module after module, getting shaped, filtered, oscillated, enveloped, amped, twisted, glitched and what ever possibility its creator has in mind.

This process is nearly the same as the conditional programing that life has to offer as you and I experience its different phases, being shaped and conditioned from what we have experienced.

This is all a fact of life.

So an analog synth has a life of its own, it lives and it is experienced as the sound emits from the audio out jacks.


A digital synth for example, started out as a photocopied model if you will, in the world of 0's and 1's. there no life here yet only the promise that something is to be heard after all the zero's and ones are processed.

In fact the signal has yet to have life until it comes out the speaker.

So these two sounds have a distinct and different origin, Analogous.


I mentioned earlier that digital as we know it is indeed a subset of the analog life it was created for many different reasons and defiantly gave the little guy a big stick and leveled the playing field for all who would partake.

The issue here is that the analog in the physical world was way too big to fit into the digital box, that was hear to save us all.

We still haven't learned how to fit infinity into a package.

In fact the only way to get it into the box is to slice it up omitting key sections of the sound, dithering it and squashing it together.

This is like taking a black and white photocopy of the Mona Lisa into the Montserrat College of Art as your midterm exam and expecting a passing grade as compared to the other students' full color oil and canvas.

Analogous indeed.

Oooops.


I am going to pause here and let the comments catch up.

[dariendaniel]

Originally Posted by ozy

is this what EDM people call a "loop-based performance"?

Ozy, watch out man that image looks a lot like bestiality, I already have trolls after my fish, all I need now is for PETA and the ASPCA to be after my post.

[MoteOfVoid]

Originally Posted by dariendaniel

Nice responses from everyone, seriously.

This is like taking a black and white photocopy of the Mona Lisa into the Montserrat College of Art as your midterm exam and expecting a passing grade as compared to the other students' full color oil and canvas.

A lot of poor copies of an amazing painting and one potential piece of art.
I wonder who passes the exam at artschool?

The Reason Most ITB mixes don’t Sound as good as Analog mixes (restored)

Fixed-Point vs. Floating-Point DSP for Superior Audio

[verve92]

I'll take a stab.
I don't own any VST's of softsynths and the ones I have heard are uninspiring to me. Doesn't mean they are useless to others or all out lame in general.
I just like hardware. No MIDI mapping or any of that shite.
If digital HW synths were so useless, why do pros use them? For live situations.
If I were making a record (and am) I use analog. If I were touring (which I am not) I would use more digital.
I think we are seeing the beginning of the end of software. Soooooooooo many hassles if you are just a novice or hobbyist, most pros have a flunky to take care of this stuff.
Here is why I don't use them:
-Updates constantly.
-What if my email is hacked and have to get a new email?
-License issues.
-What if computer breaks, stolen, etc then what? No rig.
-Computer upgrades.
-Plug-in hassles will it work with my DAW?
-MIDI hassles with mapping and remembering what knob does what with which softsynth.

I just want to turn on the power of the unit and turn knobs and play that's it. If I want another sound I turn on another synth turn knobs and play it. Call me lazy.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by dariendaniel

Nice responses from everyone, seriously.

I have a handful of *named* ( insert name drop here ) underground and mainstream producers reading this post and loving it. Btw they are analog heads.

---

Ok I am glad to hear people understand where we live and where we were born, and btw living in the physical world is very Analogous, it is bound to the essence learning and part of evolution.

Thank you for getting the parity of being born and the birth of electronic music.
As far as the matrix goes, yes there is a certain *metaphysical* aspect to creating and electronic sound.

In regards to an analog synthesizer creating a sound, it all starts with an electronic pulse, a charge, a voltage.

It is living and organic.

After that pulse leaves the VCO, it takes on a similar path as every conscious (and maybe unconscious) being does as they follow the path of life.

The pulse travels along the analog signal path passing through module after module, getting shaped, filtered, oscillated, enveloped, amped, twisted, glitched and what ever possibility its creator has in mind.

This process is nearly the same as the conditional programing that life has to offer as you and I experience its different phases, being shaped and conditioned from what we have experienced.

This is all a fact of life.

So an analog synth has a life of its own, it lives and it is experienced as the sound emits from the audio out jacks.


A digital synth for example, started out as a photocopied model if you will, in the world of 0's and 1's. there no life here yet only the promise that something is to be heard after all the zero's and ones are processed.

In fact the signal has yet to have life until it comes out the speaker.

So these two sounds have a distinct and different origin, Analogous.


I mentioned earlier that digital as we know it is indeed a subset of the analog life it was created for many different reasons and defiantly gave the little guy a big stick and leveled the playing field for all who would partake.

The issue here is that the analog in the physical world was way too big to fit into the digital box, that was hear to save us all.

We still haven't learned how to fit infinity into a package.

In fact the only way to get it into the box is to slice it up omitting key sections of the sound, dithering it and squashing it together.

This is like taking a black and white photocopy of the Mona Lisa into the Montserrat College of Art as your midterm exam and expecting a passing grade as compared to the other students' full color oil and canvas.

Analogous indeed.

Oooops.


I am going to pause here and let the comments catch up.

You're a bit weird. And quite naive. Did I mention a lack of real world experience? Pros use what gets the job done - they don't worry about these "fools gold" claims.

[spaceman]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

...Pros use what gets the job done ...

This.

[Greg Curtis]

Originally Posted by AyA

It's improper to follow a period with the word "and".
Unless you're just doing it to be controversial.

Where did you get that information? It is not correct.

[Red Black]

Originally Posted by AyA

It's improper to follow a period with the word "and". Unless you're just doing it to be controversial then I suppose that's ok. Maybe the norm is now a new norm, a newer lazier norm. You may feel like disregarding the past in favour of easier, lazier speech or easier, lazier recording... I do not.

Hehe . . you can it's just not usually a 'graceful' way to write. And this is Gearslutz so who cares :]

http://www.grammarslutz.com/

[Dean Roddey]

The first sentence is completely reasonable. It's not as common, but the separation of the two thoughts may be very purposeful and correctly reflect the intent of the writer. It's not much different from something like:

You are anal retentive - and a bit condescending

or

You are anal retentive... and a bit condescending

They are all effectively conveying the same thing, that of the second bit being a purposefully separate afterthought, probably often intended to be delivered with raised eyebrows and looking down the nose, after a longer than inter-phrase pause (for obvious effect, comic timing, a short consideration of the consequences, etc...) The subject is easily inferred by anyone reading the sentence.

[famousbass]

Yep, hardware is, how do you say it(?), "the way to go"...

[doom64]

Originally Posted by famousbass

Yep, hardware is, how do you say it(?), "the way to go"...

LOL!

[Greg Curtis]

Originally Posted by AyA

It is correct.

Think about it this way. If you say a sentence, finish it with a pause and then say "and" it's obvious that this next sentence is an addition to the last, an after thought and as such it's lazy speech. You're not fully forming the whole argument construction in your head before saying it...
Now, this is written language, why would you have to append something to a sentence you write because you're not composing on the fly you can edit your writing so all the information is in a neat format... It is called lazy speech.

The sentence in question is this; "You're a bit weird. And quite naive."
What it should read like is this; "You're a bit weird and quite naive."

It's odd how you actually have to add something which doesn't need to be there in order to be called lazy, but the something is a pause for thought. It's actually in the same basket as people who swear constantly because the swear word is a small pause for them to think about what to say next... It's uncouth.

Look, I know it's hard as an American to understand a second language such as English and I'm sure there are scores in the galleries, shouting at their screens, quips like "never teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig" but I don't mind. I will help you if I can. And that's all I have to say on that.

Your assumptive, ridiculous rant is incorrect. The use of conjunctions to start a sentence, while not common, is an accepted practice. Its effective use brings attention to itself, and is, therefore, a powerful tool for a writer. No current style manual prohibits its use, nor does any professional copy editor forbid its use.

Your specious and flawed information comes from ignorance. You wallow in it.

gc

[benherron.rrr]

If hardware is the way to go why are most of us using software?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

[seen-da-sizer]

Originally Posted by benherron.rrr

If hardware is the way to go why are most of us using software?

A lot of people eat at McDonalds, but that fact doesn't mean it is quality food.

[ksandvik]

This smells Pyrite.

[dariendaniel]

Thank you again everyone. This is starting to get good.

Let me recap here:

First we have identified some basic differences in sound creation, in this analogy of a parity.

We have an industry offering of
1. Pure analog synths with a straight analog signal path from end to end.
2. Hybrid analog synths with the likes of DCO or something digital in the signal path.
3. Digital synths of all flavors. (including a $300.00 Casio)
4. Digital DSP based plugins creating VA synthesis sound.

But wait there is more, we have yet to add to this list...




A word from the pros.

I personally have learned never to second guess a 'Pro" and that all "Pro's" are not made the same. In fact there is no 'defacto' standard for a prototype pro.
Professionalism is very all encompassing, embodying the higher levels of work flow, and a higher sustaining level of performance. I could go on here.

Example:

A friend once watched me warm something up in a microwave oven, he turned to me and asked if there was any particular reason why I chose the microwave.
I paused for a bit with a puzzled look for this was the first time that I had even thought about this topic.
Hrmmm, I thought and responded that my mother had used one and that I learned from her to press the button and presto out came my burrito.

Next the friend asked me if it mattered to me what I ate and put in my body,
I paused again and prior to answering he asked, "you do want the best quality
food to give you the most nutrients per volume of food consumed don't you?" I said sure that sounds great.

I asked him "if there was a difference in the quality of food and the way ones body processed it which affected the nutritional value of what we eat?"

He then precoded to explain how the microwave oven worked, hell I knew nothing of this I dj'ed 4 nights a week
sometimes twice in one night... I was just looking for quick gratification in-between clubs or events.

So I learned from him that the oven irradiates the food in a way that disturbed the integral structure
of the cells which make up the nutrients and killed off the living and organic parts of the burrito that my body required to sustain my hard work schedule.

Crap no wonder I felt like sh*t.

So the burrito in the box was just about as nutritious as a photocopy of itself and that my mind, which had been programmed
to what a burrito tasted like had only triggered a sample image of what I had once remembered.

So thats why it looked and tasted like a burrito, but in actuality it internally was mutated and had way less value to my body than the amount of energy my body expended to even chew and digest the thing.

That right there is the law of diminishing returns.

Oh wait there it is #5. Sampled sounds!

As a consultant in the recording industry to the "Pros", I rolled several copies of a fantastic drum application
that used extremely high quality multi recorded and layered drums & percussion sounds.
This app also provided a very intuitive and complete interface covering just about every aspect drum and mic positioning, sequencing and nuances ... pretty amazing.

This app is known as BFD.
I knew its creator Angus Hewitt many years prior to its release, a man who started this company from one basic drum vsti that bloomed into what it is today.

Since recording and sampling captures the essence of the living and organic sound, this process is sort
of an Analogous anomaly as compared to the whole Analog v. Digital case, that is now in front of the Supreme Court.

BFD gets the most out of the zero's and ones as far as I am concerned.

If you take an app of this caliber and match it with some hardware on the same level, this makes a great solution for studio and touring drummers.

Can you imaging luggin all that kit around which BFD has to offer?


Here is another great hardware piece designed to match an application of the likes of a BFD.

http://youtu.be/aTLkraGip7M

These two together is no burrito in the box, however something that is opening the doorway and furthering the advancement of music by technology.

Technomusic!


Ok I'm stringing up the pinata so get out that big stick technology gave you and lets go.


... In the next segment I will describe the experiments on all that software I earned.

BTW I went to that Musiccomputing site for the DrumMC machine... some awesome tech there.

[explorer]

Originally Posted by dariendaniel

A friend once watched me warm something up in a microwave oven, he turned to me and asked if there was any particular reason why I chose the microwave....

...So I learned from him that the oven irradiates the food in a way that disturbed the integral structure
of the cells which make up the nutrients and killed off the living and organic parts of the burrito that my body required to sustain my hard work schedule.

Not quite sure how we got onto microwaves, but it looks like your friend might not be entirely correct.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/17/he...erland&emc=rss

I would recommend eating unprocessed fresh fruit and vegetables if you are interested in the best nutritional value. A good diet is no bad thing.

Anyway, back to synths...

[cuckoo.old]

Please tell me danieldaniel, did you come on this forum before with the name vox345?

[Duardo]

It's improper to follow a period with the word "and".
Unless you're just doing it to be controversial then I suppose that's ok.

I take it your equally-improper and lazy appending was done to be clever. In which case I suppose that's okay.