Advice to Guitarists

[Beat Poet]

Originally Posted by The Real MC

Too many guitar players who want to be the next Eddie Van Halen find it hard to give up the visual impact of full marshall stacks behind them.

Too true, I was in a band with two guitarists using Marshall 4x12s. I was like look fellas, I can't even fit the drums onstage.

[Chrisc_o]

Originally Posted by The Real MC

Loud is not just the wattage.

Speaker efficiency. Not many consider this spec when discussing the power generated by an amp system.

[Ward Pike]

In the late 1960s Jeff Beck was quoted as saying he didn't understand why guitarists needed 100s of watts of power to get their tone. That a microphone hears tone and not volume.

[thefyn]

You do live sound too right?

[stuartb]

Best and worst thing i ever did was buy a fender twin. Its just so damn loud, but i love it and i've tried to sell it but no one wants to buy it off me! oh well, i guess i'll have to keep it for now......

[verve92]

Originally Posted by stuartb

Best and worst thing i ever did was buy a fender twin. Its just so damn loud, but i love it and i've tried to sell it but no one wants to buy it off me! oh well, i guess i'll have to keep it for now......

You could do a lot worse. Twins are awesome.

[stuartb]

Originally Posted by verve92

You could do a lot worse. Twins are awesome.

Yeah does indeed sound awesome, its a red knob, not a patch on my mates silver face, but still a beast of an amp.

Its just a shame i have to lug it up and down a flight of stairs every time we rehearse! the thing literally weighs a ton!

[carlheinz]

Weird how D Gilmore built a career out of a conservatively rated 100 watt Hiwatt and a 4x12 cab with a soft hitting drummer for the most part...But afterall..he's DG

[Jazz Noise]

Problem with Low Wattage amps is they're typicaly small speaker combo jobbies.

You need a 10' or 12' cab to give these guys their required low end juice. 2x12 + a Fender Champ is something I'd love to try.

[kafka]

For recording, my 100w amps (ok, down to one at this point), are just for clean sounds. You can spread the output driver across twice as many tubes, and there's a nice big wide, clean, articulate tone to it. It may be a little loud to talk over an amp set like that, but you can still communicate. For me, big and clean go hand in hand. It's why the Fender Twin, for instance, is always the rhythm amp, and the Deluxe is the lead amp.

If I want power amp distortion, I prefer something smaller and tighter sounding. The difference between a 35 watt amp and a 50 watt amp isn't much at all. Your speaker selection will have a greater effect on volume than simple wattage in that range.

True, there are those tones that only seem to exist up at ear bleeding volumes. I always find those a hard to capture. The space between the notes seems to disappear, and the dynamic range reduces. It depends a lot on how the room resonates. It's fun to play with the amp cranked, but l don't have many examples of sounds I've recorded like that where I was really happy with the end result. Not none, but not a whole lot.

[smili]

When your heroes are playing 100W amps that's what you want to get. And I still can't sound like EVH but I'll buy an amp to try.

But I know what you mean. I love my little amps. I just wished they sounded like the old Marshalls but they don't.

edit: I recently got a Marshall Vintage Modern 50W because despite the amps I had I wanted "that" sound. Sadly it's too loud to use - it'll blow the windows out of my house. I hear the demos and "that" is the sound that I want - but I can't have it.

[smili]

Originally Posted by PTbreaker

Bands come in expecting the noise war that they experience at practice/on stage to be relevant in the studio. It's not.

That's funny. I was recently guitarist in a band and often couldn't hear myself at all. I mean I'd watch my hands to make sure I was playing the right chords because I wouldn't hear it if played something wrong. Basically just got used to trusting the PA guy to make everything sound good out front. Once you get used to not being able to hear the music you're playing and just do the best you can with what you can hear - it's all better.

Yes, that's me over on the edge of the stage with my head down trying to hear what I'm playing.

[PTbreaker]

Originally Posted by smili

That's funny. I was recently guitarist in a band and often couldn't hear myself at all. I mean I'd watch my hands to make sure I was playing the right chords because I wouldn't hear it if played something wrong. Basically just got used to trusting the PA guy to make everything sound good out front. Once you get used to not being able to hear the music you're playing and just do the best you can with what you can hear - it's all better.

Yes, that's me over on the edge of the stage with my head down trying to hear what I'm playing.

Funny. I just finished an acoustic session where the musicians mentioned that they wished there was a way they could hear more of themselves. They were not interested in wearing headphones...

[smili]

Originally Posted by PTbreaker

Funny. I just finished an acoustic session where the musicians mentioned that they wished there was a way they could hear more of themselves. They were not interested in wearing headphones...

we didn't have any fancy monitoring or anything in our ears. Just a few stage monitors. When recording headphones make everything much better. W/ acoustic guitars I actually use the headphones to position myself relative to the mic to get "that" spot where it sounds best.

[kennybro]

Originally Posted by wakestyle

Are you for real trying to tell guitarist to use their EARS???

lololloll

Most guitarists I know no longer have ears

[Zombie H]

the sound of a 4x12 cabinet driven by a Marshall amp is distinctive ive played it an empty wharehouse and it was scary you cant nail that sound with smaller amps altho you can get very close

I agree tho there's a ton of boutique type amps nowadays that do an amazing range of clean vs. distorted tones

I think some of the Carvin amps sound amazing , Bogner , Mesa Mark 4 but ultimately acoustic and classical guitars are where it's really at

[Baz]

Couldn't agree with the OP more. Spot on and seriously, is this not the the most common challenge with unseasoned guitarists in the studio, along with old strings and poor intonation setups? Output section is where the amp breaths fire and where the size is.

But I don't fully agree about low wattage amps always being the solution. To get thumpy, agro type metal guitars, you need hi headroom power sections that don't collapse and get too spongy like low watters tend to do. I know that with my MKIV for eg, I cannot get real authentic metal tones in the lower, class A settings (50 / 30w) and need to be full power, Pentode.

Same for the Boogie Fender Twin on steroids thing...But overall, in most cases, low watt amps will make everyones life easier

[PTbreaker]

Originally Posted by Baz

Couldn't agree with the OP more. Spot on and seriously, is this not the the most common challenge with unseasoned guitarists in the studio, along with old strings and poor intonation setups? Output section is where the amp breaths fire and where the size is.

But I don't fully agree about low wattage amps always being the solution. To get thumpy, agro type metal guitars, you need hi headroom power sections that don't collapse and get too spongy like low watters tend to do. I know that with my MKIV for eg, I cannot get real authentic metal tones in the lower, class A settings (50 / 30w) and need to be full power, Pentode.

Same for the Boogie Fender Twin on steroids thing...But overall, in most cases, low watt amps will make everyones life easier

Great comments! Thanks for the thoughts. I think having an isolation room is the best bet when the only way to get the tone you want is high volume high wattage amps.

[latestflavor]

its possible (not always probable with guitarists) that they like the headroom in the low end with a high watter. its not about pushing the output tubes, its about how a 4x12 is a bigger cab and it is hard to get the same sound out of a 2x or 1x. you want to push the speakers to the edge without distorting, move that air - but if you do the same thing with the exact same model low wattage amp you may notice some difference in the low end (aka balls, nuts, plums, rocks, bollocks, nads, gonads, sack (collective), nuggets, Cracker Jacks, stones, kerbangers, marbles, tenders, cullions, bells, pelotas, nutsack, bollocks, family jewels, gems, cojones, junk, package, manjigglies, Man tonsils, Knackers, Cods, love spuds, hanging brain, ornaments, two veg).

with higher wattage you can lay off the output tubes even that much more. for that kind of rock, pushed output tubes suck.

now, i'm not going to stick up for guitarists, we all know the deal. but if you're looking for drop D big sound pushing air with some serious mansack, sometimes the bigger the wattage is what you want if your gain comes from your preamp.

so to the OP's rant, yes, a guy that doesn't' know pushing your preamp for volume screams amateur deserves to be filleted, quartered, sliced, diced.....

of course, "that" sound i'm talking isn't achieved by being able to have some organic touchy-feelie kumbaya next to your drummer. its about having your cab far away and a slave in the live room if you must. "organic" and high wattage rock seem to me to be an oxymoron. the drummers always got the short end of the stick with early stadium rock.

[joeydego]

Originally Posted by PTbreaker

I know loud amps are cool. I own a few. They can be lots of fun but really when you show up to a session with a 50+ watt amp I think there is just one place you can put it…

If I could give one piece of advice to every guitarist it would be to start collecting the best sounding Low Watt amps you can find.

I’m tired of doing sessions where the guitarist “needs” to be in the room with the amp, turns the master volume down to 2, then turns up the suck-sizzly-12ax7hell-knob. And they wonder “why cant I sound like SRV with my coil split emgs, running into a POS TS clone and a ‘fender’ amp with the master on 2 and the pre on 9.

I say to thee fellow guitarists go forth and buy thine self a princtone reverb, a tweed champ, a tweed deluxe, an 18watt marshall, or any of the wonderful low wattage clones and spin offs out there on the market.

Because I swear the next cold as nails take I have to listen to with angry-wasp-hell-plate-melting-12ax7 distortion is going to result in me kicking shins.

(btw this is not about metal or any of those genres it’s about crafting good tones, regardless of your genre, in and out of the studio. If your amp is too loud for your drummer you need to rethink.)

Ok flame on. Tell me why everyone needs a 200watt marshall major and how your sure high wattage amps are the only way to get good tone.

Not sure who/what you've been working with. I play out and record my best with my sounds, which I've spent days programming and tweaking consisting of a triple rec, TC Electronic G system and other tools. You will NOT get these sounds out of a Fender Champ, I assure you and I'm not talking only hi gain. I Use this setup in an 80's pop tribute and most of the night is low gain. Not to get snippy, but how about I bring the amp, you place your mic, and we meet somewhere in the middle for the best result of what either I or the client is paying for?

[Sqye]

.



.

[doom64]

In the past as a drummer I chose an electronic drum kit to benefit the rest of my band while gigging. Drums, even crappy ones, just dominate the stage and bleed into mics. Not so with an electronic kit. They looked goofy but man did we sound great since the stage noise was kept to a minimum!

The great thing is the newer ones, like the Pearl E-Pro, look like acoustic drum sets. Live sound guys loved me back in the day :-)


As far as the stacks go during big concerts, yep:

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by LogWagon

First post... Weird way to break into the gearslutz forums considering the amount of lurking I've done over the past couple years.

Anyways, being a drummer I completely understand where you are coming from PTbreaker. I've been in two bands and it has always been a battle of people saying they can't hear themselves. Bass player can't hear any definition, turns up... Guitarist only hears bass being across the room and in direct path of the bass cab, turns up.. Other guitarist hears he is the weakest in the room and "out of balance" with everyone else, turns up... Soon enough I'm playing my balls off and can't hear my own kick drum right in front of me. So after getting into an argument with a guitarist about how I'm the loudest in the room and not him I decided to stop playing the kick drum completely to see if anyone could tell or notice... NOPE.. They even went on to pat each other on the back about how good of a run through we just had..

I'd really like to know, and I'm not being sarcastic, why 100, 150, 200 watt class A tubes amps for guitars exist. Is there a legitimate purpose for that kind of power?? Both guitarists I work with now have moderate 35 watt and 40 watt heads and have more than enough volume and headroom for a full concert or practice.. So where are these large heads needed? They don't work on a small stage because they will outgun any medium sized p.a. system. And on a large stage you will most certainly be running through a sm57 or 421 or the like. Plus a large f.o.h. system will have more than adequate monitoring so you won't need huge stage volume there either. Can someone explain this in terms other than "because they can"??

/rant

This.


It took me a while to figure it out, but, to my way of thinking, the 'natural' way to play rock and roll is with the sound of the band well-balanced around the (unamplified) drums. Put up a stereo mic a reasonable distance from the band and they ought to sound right. If a guitarist or keyboardist (or anything else) is too loud against the drums, he's too loud.

(And then I think good players by definition, know how to play to the song, so that they're self-mixing, but that's another can of worms.)


Now, sure, one can come up with small club scenarios that, if you try hard enough, can 'justify' huge guitar amps. But most modern venues that amp the drums can probably be coaxed into miking the the guitars, I'm thinking. But that's a can of worms I don't care to dive into...

[PTbreaker]

Originally Posted by joeydego

Not sure who/what you've been working with. I play out and record my best with my sounds, which I've spent days programming and tweaking consisting of a triple rec, TC Electronic G system and other tools. You will NOT get these sounds out of a Fender Champ, I assure you and I'm not talking only hi gain. I Use this setup in an 80's pop tribute and most of the night is low gain. Not to get snippy, but how about I bring the amp, you place your mic, and we meet somewhere in the middle for the best result of what either I or the client is paying for?

Just ordered your ep. Good music. Triple rec and TC are a great combination. Don't forget that this a 5 month old rant at this point and really if you have something that works well for you I think you should stick with that.

I'm still a fan of small amps. When I wrote my first post I had just finished a session with a musician that was not able to get the tone he wanted at the volume he was comfortable with. I had actually turned the amp up for the musician to get some more tone from the output section but the musician was uncomfortable with the volume. In the end I was stuck recording fizzy bad tone at the insistence of the musician. I wish I had thought to bring one of my lower wattage amps to that session. I still believe that buzzy 12ax7 preamp fizz is not the way to get good tone regardless of the style of music.

Anyhow you must be ripped. I'm so lazy. I don't think I'd have it in me to carry that rig around. It does look and sound good though and I liked your flight case setup for the head and such. Also your guitar collection is epic. You have some really nice instruments. For me it's the b bender tele that really gets me going. I have been thinking about one of those for ages. I need to give in and just get one.

[Jimsi]

welcome to life in a band!!

Originally Posted by LogWagon

First post... Weird way to break into the gearslutz forums considering the amount of lurking I've done over the past couple years.

Anyways, being a drummer I completely understand where you are coming from PTbreaker. I've been in two bands and it has always been a battle of people saying they can't hear themselves. Bass player can't hear any definition, turns up... Guitarist only hears bass being across the room and in direct path of the bass cab, turns up.. Other guitarist hears he is the weakest in the room and "out of balance" with everyone else, turns up... Soon enough I'm playing my balls off and can't hear my own kick drum right in front of me. So after getting into an argument with a guitarist about how I'm the loudest in the room and not him I decided to stop playing the kick drum completely to see if anyone could tell or notice... NOPE.. They even went on to pat each other on the back about how good of a run through we just had..

I'd really like to know, and I'm not being sarcastic, why 100, 150, 200 watt class A tubes amps for guitars exist. Is there a legitimate purpose for that kind of power?? Both guitarists I work with now have moderate 35 watt and 40 watt heads and have more than enough volume and headroom for a full concert or practice.. So where are these large heads needed? They don't work on a small stage because they will outgun any medium sized p.a. system. And on a large stage you will most certainly be running through a sm57 or 421 or the like. Plus a large f.o.h. system will have more than adequate monitoring so you won't need huge stage volume there either. Can someone explain this in terms other than "because they can"??

/rant

[Winny Pooh]

But small amps dont sound like plexis or blonde bassman's : (

[James Lugo]

I personally don't think this is advice, it's your opinion. Loud amps have been the backbone of hard rock and metal for decades. Learn the craft of tracking loud amps so you can deal with it! I played Eddie's main amp on many occasions at his techs shop. It's a 100 watt 68 plexi, dimed! You gonna tell him to get an ac15. No!

[kennybro]

Everything in its place. Page did OK in the studio with small amps, but they don't sound like big amps, no way. They sound great, but like small amps.

As mentioned above, that's because of the speaker mostly, IMO. I put 5 watts full up through a 12" and close mic it, and it sounds just like your average, hi-power big amp. Through the combo'd 8" speaker that's in there, it still sounds very cool, but smaller.

But the sound of 2 4/12 cabs in a great sounding room, distant mic'd is another animal altogether. Can't do that with no little single speaker. The combination of 8 separate speakers barking at once creates a complexity of noise that close micing one speaker just can't. I don't see needing big watts. 22 will do it. But lots of speakers does have a unique sound.

In regard to metal, most of it sounds to me like guitar>pedal>pre. No speaker needed. But that's me.

[thefyn]

I was waiting for sound engineers to become jaded like live sound guys when it comes to loud guitars. Looks like the time has come.

With guitar there are sweet spots, and it involves moving air, pulsing speakers and natural speaker distortion and pushed tubes. Plus the sound bouncing off the room can help the vibe.

[Winny Pooh]

Remember that the sustain and musical feedback which inspire a guitarists performance when playing also only happen at mid volume up. A quieter amp will not give you that feel or sustain.