Got screwed by a well known gear broker...

[Fletcher]

Bummer bro... but far from an isolated instance. Your story is far from unique... and from the story I have it narrowed down to like 3... of those 3, it really sounds like one I know very well [not like in "let's hang out and grab a beer" kind of way... more like a "yeah, I've cleaned up this moron's crap work before" kinda way].

If its who I think it could be... I know a lawyer that scares the crap out of this tool. Misrepresentation isn't hard to prove if you have an email / paper trail... and treble damages have been known to happen before.

Best of luck!!

Peace

[Avast!]

(deleted mention of some yo-yo).

[Admiral James T.]

Please don't post any names here. I'd like to avoid nasty bashing as long as possible...
Fletcher, I neither have the money nor the guts to call a lawyer - I guess it's kinda hard to sue someone in the States if you're from Switzerland.

I know after all that this broker has never even seen that desk. So the previous owner is involved in that story as well... But after all I made a deal with the broker and I had his (written) word, so I don't care about the previous owner, dunno what his intetion was, how much he was paid for that desk, or what he told about the console.

I still hope there is a peaceful & easy way outta this.

[Admiral James T.]

I just got an answer from him. It started with "Let me see what I can do...".
that's about the 11th time he's starting with that (or a similar) sentence. For more than half a year now.

[joelpatterson]

You shouldn't really start worrying until you get e-mails from him that start, "Eeenie, meenie, miney, moe..."

[Vivian Jackson]

Its got to be worth throwing a couple of hundred euros in offical legal emails at this lowlife.
At least to get your tech money back.
Good luck.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

You might also want to join this discussion group neotek@analogbros.com a wealth of information and a good source of knowledge about NEOTEK consoles. I have owned four Neoteks and NONE of them arrived here without some problems that are usually easy to fix. All of them left here in perfect shape except for the last one which was a total disaster and had been mostly stripped for parts and I was left with a console frame and some filler plates. Neoteks are GREAT consoles and worth some work.

Here are just some of the problems my four consoles had.

Blown power supply
Scratchy Pots
Scratchy faders
Solo did not work
Routing did not work
Master section was "modified" by someone who knew nothing about electronics or soldering
Connectors bent or non mating
Hum
Sever crosstalk
Monitor outputs blown
and the list goes on.

My advice

Get some schematics - learn about Stabilent 22 Untitled Document to fix all the problems with switches and connectors. Get some DeoxIT® Fader F-Series for the pots and spend a week getting all the problems solved. You will be glad you did and you will have IMHO one of the best sounding analog consoles around.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by Admiral James T.

Fletcher, I neither have the money nor the guts to call a lawyer - I guess it's kinda hard to sue someone in the States if you're from Switzerland.

Its quite easy for anyone from anywhere to do start legal proceedings... I have some on going litigation in process in Germany at the moment. The US system is far more rational than the German system... so if the Swiss system is anything like the German system [and due to their relative proximity, I would kinda think they might be] then I could understand the apprehension.

Like I said, if your guy is the same guy I think it is... then I can recommend a really good lawyer [who that guy knows doesn't fµck around... and has come out on the short end of the process with] who may be able to get you some motion for the simple cost of a letter. No court costs, no opposing attorney's fees... no bullshit.

I'd recommend you keep it open as a possible option... but its your struggle, not mine.

Peace

[Admiral James T.]

Sorry, had to edit my last post. Just to make it short: it's getting worse.
BE VERY CAREFUL WHEN DEALING WITH PRIMAL GEAR / DUNCAN ROWE.

[swafford]

Primal Gear: A Used Recording Console Odyssey — Nuthouse Recording

[Admiral James T.]

Originally Posted by swafford

Primal Gear: A Used Recording Console Odyssey — Nuthouse Recording

Yeah, I've seen that one. Unfortunately after I bought my Neotek.
But there are lots of similarities.

[George Necola]

Duncan called me after shooting him a mail about the case. (Admiral is a friend of mine).

I followed the desk installation from start to end. I recommended the tech doing it and the consesus is the following:

Duncan says he didnt saw the console as it comes from Oregon. The guys who sold it to him were describing it as in "perfect shape and recapped".

The desk was only partly recapped, a mastrr module was missing, modt of the pots were scratchy, the pstchbays had connection problems, the middle foot of the stand was missing.

Duncan did mail several times to admiral, promised to send parts but nothing happrnd. The last thing he did was paypaling 1kUS$ with the comment that if he (Admiral) accepts it, the case is solved for him (primal gear).

On the phone Duncan mentioned that he wants to resolv this case but now there has been no contact with him for the last 4 days.

I don't get it. That's not serious business. Both sides take risks when selling or buying a used desk. In this case case Duncan should eat the refurbishing costs up to how the desk was advertised in my opinion.

Hope we can resolv this soon.

Cheers
George

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[primal duncan]

I'm going to step in and offer the other side….

I'm so sorry that David has had this trouble. There is nothing I would rather have than happy customers. I did believe the seller of the console to have been honest with me about the desk and obviously I was wrong. My bad….I have offered several solutions to the problem. I sent the $1000. to help with the expenses. I am willing to pay him more, however, as I have stated in my previous emails, I would rather have the modules sent to my shop at my expense to be recapped. I can offer a 3 day turn around time. I am also willing to send my head tech to the studio to repair the console. I have now sent multiple emails over the course of the past week and multiple phone calls to no avail. I can't make this right if I am not allowed to try.
I feel it is very unfortunate that a post from 2007 has been brought up again. All I can say to all that read this is that I have a few customers that will never be happy with me. But I have 100's if not 1000's that are happy with me and love Primal Gear and I will continue to try to make this situation right.

I'm trying to make this right as I always do and I hope all involved understand that.

Duncan Rowe

[Sqye]

.

Good for you, George, for stepping in here!

And it's smart PR salvage to see Duncan showing up here to work things out.

Obviously, there's a HUGE difference between $2k-$3k and $14k!!

Not even the dumbest most ripped off customer wants to overpay for an old piece of gear by 467-700%!!!

I really hope this gets resolved. There's a chance here.

Not for nothing, Duncan, but it seems like you might want to get better QC on some of these vintage products you sell.

I mean, it's your name, and your business on the line, right?

Just sayin'.

I know it's IMPOSSIBLE to please all customers, sellers misrepresent, and shit does happen, so hopefully this will work out.

.

[primal duncan]

Thanks....I really am trying to resolve this. After another call and email today
I still cannot get my customer to contact me back. We have to start a dialog at some point soon. As far as the console goes, I talked to the seller several times and got the feeling that he was honest in his representation hence my confidence that this desk was a good purchase for the client, usually I find my sellers are trustworthy and I have very few problems with products I buy, unfortunately, my intuition was off with this seller.

[heyman]

Originally Posted by Admiral James T.

Yeah, I've seen that one. Unfortunately after I bought my Neotek.
But there are lots of similarities.

Ummm... Wow.

[heyman]

I think the Broker should buy the console back in good faith. I then think it is up to the broker to go after the seller of the console for any money owed.

Fair is fair..

[Sqye]

.

In BOTH of these cases - the current one, and the one from 2006/7 - this is really quite a bit of money we're talking about.

Even if you're wealthy you don't want to be throwing away thousands of dollars - at least at someone else's behest.

It's not like we're talking about some $200 dollar microphone. Most musicians cannot afford to lose so much money - it really affects their ability to function - both in the studio and personally. And I'm not even talking about all the hassle, back and forth and aggravation. In many cases, this can mean down time and loss of income. Really not cool.

I know it can be difficult to verify quality for a seller's products - especially, if they don't live the area - so this is a difficult problem. But if a broker/dealer earns money doing this, and this is his profession, I'd think that these losses are part of the game.

Then again, I'll tell you this. I would NOT want to be a gear dealer. Yikes. Musicians can be impossible to deal with. I have friends who return EVERYTHING, and are always bickering about tax and shipping, always trying to negotiate every freeeking penny - like they have NOTHING better to do. And they TOTALLY get off on this. Bragging and complaining about every nickel and dime they save or spend.

Personally, I'd rather just be making music - but wtf do I know?

But, obviously, it's different here. We're talking thousands of dollars lost, hassle and down time for quite a while.

I hope this is made right. I think it will be. It would be nice to see some resolution here.

.

[primalsteve]

I'll start this post by saying I know Duncan very well. I worked at Primal for 6 years, hense my user name. It's been about the same since I've worked there. I have no ties to the company anymore.

I do however have a great recolection of the business and what it's like to own a mid-grade console. There's a few things worth noting.

Where is dude now who's having the problem? Why isn't he up here taking Duncan's offer to get this things moving? It's great to have the right to complain but if Duncan's up here working on solutions where is he? I'm sure he's reading these posts.

$2-3k is ridicoulous. So let's get this straight, the tech who nobody knows said it's worth 2-3k and now that's now what it's worth? There an old saying, something is worth what you will pay for it". This gentleman paid 14k. Is that a ripoff? I don't know, he paid it didn't he? If the argument is it's not worth 14k in that condition that let duncan get it in that condition.

The recapped thing sucks. It's not something that should have happened. That being said you have the guy that sold the console here on the forum saying he will recap at his expense.

Scratchy pots, faders.... I'm sorry but that's part of the game of old mid-grade consoles and we all know it. We want old, we want cool sounding, and we don't want to spend 35k-50k then we get scratchy pots. I've owned a netotek before, they sound much better than what you pay. That's the good part. The bad part is they use cheap faders, cheap pots, ribbon connectors etc... That cheap construction is why you pay what you pay.

I'm not demeaning Admirals position. It's not a fun place to be in. There is however solutions for all of this. Hopefully Admiral will take Duncan's offer to remedy this. I assume the judge of Primal's character as a business should be judged by how problems resolve not whether they occur.

Just my two cents, even if they are biased, and they are.

[Sqye]

.

Nice post, PS. Well said.

And when it comes down to it - when buying used gear, we MUST do at least minimal due diligence.

That said, many of us don't know what to look for - until it's too late, unfortunately.

But, of course, buying a used piece of gear is ALWAYS going to be a risk.

That's why it makes all the difference in the world who you're dealing with.

.

[Sqye]

.

Good posts, aYa.

.

[primal duncan]

He already said he recapped it at his expense before he sold it... How many times do we have to watch him say one thing and do another before it becomes obvious to you he's lying?

Please get the facts straight before you insinuate I am a liar. I never said that I paid to have the console recapped at my expense before it shipped....I said, the seller told me he recapped the console before I bought it from him and I believed him. I have since offered to recap the console at my expense. Please reread the original posts again so you are qouting accurately. It seems to be obvious you aren't a fan of mine, but before you slander my name I ask you to please get the story right. I know you may not want to hear this, but I've done this for 14 years and this is how I make my living and support my family. These sorts of things have an impact on my livelihood. I am a very decent guy and as you can see here, I am trying to do the right thing. Above all I am not a liar. In the end, this is between my customer and myself to resolve this.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by AyA

If I could have a guess it would be he's taking the advice of a lawyer and shutting up.



You're right, the tech will only pay 2-3k for it, that seems to be what it's worth to him.



He already said he recapped it at his expense before he sold it... How many times do we have to watch him say one thing and do another before it becomes obvious to you he's lying?



Yes and no, that's why it's worth 2-3k... If it had been represented correctly in the first place then none of this would have happened.

I suggest you read the preceding posts before getting on your soapbox...though we know how much you like to be "controversial".

A lot of presumptions in your post as well.

[primalsteve]

Originally Posted by AyA

If I could have a guess it would be he's taking the advice of a lawyer and shutting up.



You're right, the tech will only pay 2-3k for it, that seems to be what it's worth to him.



He already said he recapped it at his expense before he sold it... How many times do we have to watch him say one thing and do another before it becomes obvious to you he's lying?




Yes and no, that's why it's worth 2-3k... If it had been represented correctly in the first place then none of this would have happened.

So from the tone of your post it seems the only solution is to burn the console eh? Your post only focuses on what happened rather than the reality of the current sitiuation.

There apparently are no solutions and no way to make anything right huh? I need not dissect your post as it only seems related to blame and malign rather than making this guys situation right.

[George Necola]

Hi guys,
Have been virtually away chekin gs only for mod duties.

The timing is perfect. It has taken Duncan usualy weeks or months to get back to Admiral with a no-solution and now there seems to be a problem because he doesnt reply within a day or 2 (weekend included).

Stop.

Steve: as explained the console was advertised as in excellence condition. This is where all the trouble comes from. The pots are not just a lil bit scratchy and at least in my world as a a console dealer (I sold several Studer, Trident S-series, SSL 4 and 6ks) a console in very good condition has not scratchy pots to the point where everything seems scratchy, master section not working, partially recaped... blahblah.

Now let's not repeat the whole fandango.

I am happy that Duncan is trying to resolve this. I really dont want to be part of this whole game but I found it necessary to step in to help Admiral out.

Duncan has been nice on the phone and I hope we bring this to a good ending.

Cheers
George

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[George Necola]

Originally Posted by AyA

You got all that from my tone?

Considering this is text and the tone you're hearing is your own voice inside your head it's safe to say you're imagining things.




My post addresses your post. It offers no solutions because that is not my place as I have very few facts. You may note my post addresses facts said in this thread. I place no blame on anyone as I know no motives.

AYA/Steve thanks for stepping in. The main reason we (me and Admiral) ended up posting on gearslutz was the fact that the seller was not willing to admit that we do have a severe problem with the state of the console as advertised and that it's not a solution to just paypal 1k US dollar and tell him (Admiral) that the case is resolved for the dealer (primalgear) by Admiral accepting the money.

It seems that we make progress now.

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[George Necola]

Originally Posted by primal duncan

Please get the facts straight before you insinuate I am a liar. I never said that I paid to have the console recapped at my expense before it shipped....I said, the seller told me he recapped the console before I bought it from him and I believed him. I have since offered to recap the console at my expense. Please reread the original posts again so you are qouting accurately. It seems to be obvious you aren't a fan of mine, but before you slander my name I ask you to please get the story right. I know you may not want to hear this, but I've done this for 14 years and this is how I make my living and support my family. These sorts of things have an impact on my livelihood. I am a very decent guy and as you can see here, I am trying to do the right thing. Above all I am not a liar. In the end, this is between my customer and myself to resolve this.

The other end of the chain is the customer (Admiral) makibg a living on recording and mixing bands (14years +) on this particular board. It's his main tool and the current state of the console is affecting his ability to make an income. Also it's a bad reputation for a studio to start recording and pray to the god of electrons when switching it on and off or beeing in the middle of a take and the console fails.

We are all in the same boat.

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[Sqye]

.

George, you are awesome for doing this.

I seriously hope there will be resolution here.

.

[Admiral James T.]

Wow, this thread actually exploded the last few days...

Lotsa things have been guessed and said on here.

Let me tell you: yes, Duncan tried to reach me by phone, and he dropped me a mail where he made a few very kind suggestions how to get outta this. I tried to call him about a week ago as well. I have been working a lot the last few days, and besides that I just quit smoking after 20 years (!), and I am still kinda absorbed by the withdrawals. And there happens to be a time lag between here and there, so for whatever reason I did not talk to Duncan yet, but I surely will.

Originally Posted by primalsteve

(...)
Where is dude now who's having the problem? Why isn't he up here taking Duncan's offer to get this things moving? It's great to have the right to complain but if Duncan's up here working on solutions where is he? I'm sure he's reading these posts.

$2-3k is ridicoulous. So let's get this straight, the tech who nobody knows said it's worth 2-3k and now that's now what it's worth? There an old saying, something is worth what you will pay for it". This gentleman paid 14k. Is that a ripoff? I don't know, he paid it didn't he? If the argument is it's not worth 14k in that condition that let duncan get it in that condition.(...)

First of all, what am I exactly? Dude or Gentleman? And I am not reading these posts everyday, I got things to do.

It sure is a biased comment (as George's comments might be biased since he knows me), but it pretty much sums it up. "Something is worth what you will pay for it." The tech me and George both know quite well (and Duncan has his address/phone number) said he would only pay 2-3k, based on what he has seen. I paid 14k+, based on what Duncan promised me. As I stated in my first post, I am an idiot buying an unseen console and believing somebody I don't know. Never trust anybody and you'll be safe. How sad.

Whatever, again, Duncan tried to reach me, and after all he seems to be willing to solve this problem. I'll do my best to talk to him. But now I got work to do.

Peace everybody.
best

David