the demise of the record industry

[alphajerk]

it isnt the proliferation of p2p sharing of mp3's. its the faulty business model the industry has become based on.

its the sole reliance on the product. the product that was the CD, the product that is the "brand" [entertainer]...

i was talking with loudist on the phone several weeks back. we named off many bands that totally escaped the traditional means of "success". EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM was based on LIVE PERFORMANCE.

phish
dead
allman bros
dave matthews band
those type of bands... many more but its late and im tired [im sure you all can add to the list]

sure, they seem to have a LOT in common. first, jam style bands. first of which takes TALENT. talent to actually PLAY their instruments and deviate from the mundane... not simply lip syncing a performance to a DAT tape with autotune flailing on every note. and all of them built their empires on bootlegs of their shows and people FREELY trading them amongst each other.

im tired of hearing that if music is all stolen off the net and the entertainers dont make music, it will go away. it WONT. it will go back to the back porches of the neighborhoods like where it STARTED.... or the bedrooms of the kids.

furthermore, the labels are hardly the "gatekeepers" to good music. in fact, they are quite the opposite. they release more shitty shallow, crass commercialistic dreck than any poor tone deaf kid can make with fruity loops hungover at 8am in the morning.

the labels have been stealing from the artists for well, ALWAYS. some didnt even receive proper credit for their work let alone any money form these labels. the labels consistantly try to bend the artists over and **** them with a red hot fire poker.

now they bitch and moan about the consumers stealing the music as if they have the artists hearts in their hand... not their hearts, but their souls, and they want their cut [which is far larger than the artists cut] now they sue the customers who are their source of income. nothing like alienating your consumer-base.

they want total control so they can enslave their "product" and do as they like.

the power has been taken away and they are PISSED.

so now i say LET THEM DIE. LET THE INDUSTRY FAIL.

the industry NOW isnt based on talent, its based on how rich you want to get [or at least allude to wealth] and the MUSIC takes the back seat. branding. merchandise. clothing lines. bottled water. BRANDING. thats ****ED.

MUSIC will ALWAYS survive, although entertainment "moguls" might not.

so maybe its time for the current music model to die. i have seen countless towns where their "scene" has died. people have quit goign to clubs. not because good music isnt there... its there, i have seen it because i still go to empty clubs to check out bands. its because the industry banked so much on the PRODUCT for income and forgot about what MUSIC is REALLY about. its about connection. its about having crowds of people all vibing to one thing.... and the one thing created by several people vibing together.

the live show is, and always where its AT. CD's are just to hold you over until the band makes it around the next time.

MUSIC is about the relationship between the people creating it and sharing it with others. you cant steal a live show, you can tape it but its never the same as BEING THERE.

the industry has killed the excitement of being a part of something to watching it on E! or MTV in a passing state of mind.

there isnt a damn thing the current industry can do about it. iTunes wont fix it or any of the single pay to play schemes they are coming up with. nor the payola radio getups they still overload the public with.

this is a grassroots thing that will HAVE to happen. pirate radio where the DJ plays what he FEELS like playing. what moves him. the escape from the personal prisons people live in and back out onto the streets. bands playing live as their main source of income... CD sales becoming secondary... then on to other merchandise. rejuvinating the local scenes and filling the clubs again. create music that is EXCITING rather than demographically marketed and released based on focus groups. focus groups? there was a brilliant idea. use the internet for worldwide distrubution of hard CD sales, ****... even make a donation link for those obsessive fans.

LET THEM DIE. be free once again.

[DanV]

Originally posted by alphajerk
furthermore, the labels are hardly the "gatekeepers" to good music. in fact, they are quite the opposite. they release more shitty shallow, crass commercialistic dreck than any poor tone deaf kid can make with fruity loops hungover at 8am in the morning.

WELL SAID! I compose hungover on logic all the time and do an okay job.

[heinz]

Originally posted by alphajerk
furthermore, the labels are hardly the "gatekeepers" to good music. in fact, they are quite the opposite. they release more shitty shallow, crass commercialistic dreck than any poor tone deaf kid can make with fruity loops hungover at 8am in the morning.

I love that analogy. It's too bad the labels have such a collosal and powerful marketing machine at work for them. As long as the relevant media channels are saturated with carpet bomb marketing, a good share of the consumers will be seduced and ultimately believe the music you speak of is the best.

Because for every discriminating record buyer who knows crap from dope, there are five who need to be told what's good and buy accordingly. Not saying the consumer is stupid, just that marketing works. If it didn't, then the entertainment biz would've died a horrible death quite some time ago.

[ozraves]

god, i love this thread.

[aardvark]

Originally posted by alphajerk
...the live show is, and always where its AT. CD's are just to hold you over until the band makes it around the next time.

But isn't that like saying only live theatre is valid and film isn't?




The Beatles stopped the live shows in '66 and went on to do some valid work that is not easily translated to four guys on stage.



What is not "where it is at" with a killer performance in the studio...maybe the BEST take the artist ever does??





Cheers,
Aardvark

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by aardvark
But isn't that like saying only live theatre is valid and film isn't?

film and theater are quite different than an album and a live show.

you MIGHT be able to compare seeing a movie in a THEATER vs. at home on your tv... personally, i dont go to the theater much because i cant somke and drink at a theater while watching a movie, but i also own a home theater.

and im not discounting the studio enviroment. im discounting the business model of the music industry... the studios wont go away, some will. others will happen.

so the beatles stopped touring in 66... so who are the modern day beatles? what has the record labels given the public that has had the impact of the beatles? and most labels werent even that bright way back then, they all turned down the beatles except for one taking them on reluctantly.

[aardvark]

Originally posted by alphajerk
film and theater are quite different than an album and a live show.

you MIGHT be able to compare seeing a movie in a THEATER vs. at home on your tv... personally, i dont go to the theater much because i cant somke and drink at a theater while watching a movie, but i also own a home theater.

and im not discounting the studio enviroment. im discounting the business model of the music industry... the studios wont go away, some will. others will happen.

so the beatles stopped touring in 66... so who are the modern day beatles? what has the record labels given the public that has had the impact of the beatles? and most labels werent even that bright way back then, they all turned down the beatles except for one taking them on reluctantly.

I am not quibbling with your business point of view but with the idea that live is the thing and the cd just holds you over between shows.

They are different means of musical expression and both are as valid as the other. I mentioned Film and theatre as they DO provide a solid analogy for this discussion.

You can make an incredible statement with film on the same topic as a play but use the non-linear aspects of film to create visuals that are impossible in the theatre bring a new and valuable dimensional narrative to the viewer. It is the same with a cd.

You can craft aural scenarios of great consequence to paint a sophisticated weave that maintains longterm interest to the audience even after repeated listenings. This is art.


Cheers,
Aardvark

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by aardvark
I am not quibbling with your business point of view but with the idea that live is the thing and the cd just holds you over between shows.

then you missed my point. im talking about the BUSINESS. LIVE SHOWS are where the band should make their fanbase, grow their fanbase, connect with their fanbase. CD's are simply to hold their fanbase, and increase the want/need to attend shows.

the CD should function as the medium to draw the fans to the tour. follow the tour. worship the tour. the album is the platform upon which the energy is derived for the tour.

[aardvark]

Originally posted by alphajerk
then you missed my point. im talking about the BUSINESS. LIVE SHOWS are where the band should make their fanbase, grow their fanbase, connect with their fanbase. CD's are simply to hold their fanbase, and increase the want/need to attend shows.

the CD should function as the medium to draw the fans to the tour. follow the tour. worship the tour. the album is the platform upon which the energy is derived for the tour.

I did not miss your point at all. I do not need to see Steely Dan live to be a fan as they,and the Beatles and many others, did not need live shows to increase their fan base. People became fans of their records. Think about it...just a bit...you are talking about the business of selling records not touring shows. My points are salient as they pertain to making records for the purpose of sales..known as the record industry.

The vast majority of people buys record of artists they have never seen. They buy the records of people they have HEARD...on the radio, in the movies or on T.V.

VERY few people ever saw the Beatles...sold lots of records...still do...to folks who will never see them. Same with Billy Holiday, Frank Sinatra, Bessie Smith etc..etc..etc...


We buy records because the good ones speak to us again and again. That is the beauty of this art.


Cheers,
Aardvark

[alphajerk]

name one current artist that will be selling like any of those you mentioned in the same period in the future. just one. one who has happened in the past 10 years. who released an album 10 years ago that is selling as well as any of the albums from the artists you mentioned sold 10 years after they came out.

and just because i hear something doesnt mean i will buy it. [robot voice]i must go buy that album because i just heard it on mtv[/robot voice]

maybe its a byproduct of the adhd culture.

and im not downplaying the importance of the album. if that cant hold them, they arent going to go see them live. sure there will always be that bubblegum pop shit that wets the teenieboppers transition of childrens music into adult music... thats the niche it fills.

and steely dan fans are weird like rush fans.

[aardvark]

Originally posted by alphajerk
name one current artist that will be selling like any of those you mentioned in the same period in the future. just one...

Well if I could see the future...

...and steely dan fans are weird like rush fans.

Uh-huh...


Nice, lucid generalisation.



Aardvark

[Mike O]

It seems to me live shows and recorded music, regardless or era serve many different functions to many different people.

One of the functions of CDs, in addition to allowing the artist ultimate control over vision, is to be able to reach out to people that will never see the artist live.

From a time standpoint alone I would have never been able to go to one show per tour/record of all the music I enjoy/purchase.

Unless you are in a very large metro area you are unlikely to have a chance to see the major acts let alone the mid tier.

There are tens of millions of people in secondary markets that will only ever have the opportunity to see select shows at best.

[e-cue]

You think the money Timberlake, Spears, J-Ho, Chesney, Mgraw, etc are bringing in to this industry is HURTING it?

Regradless of how bad anyone sucks musically, I'm glad to see the money pouring this way, even if it's only short term.

[alphajerk]

does the artist always have ultimate control over their vision on albums? or do the labels? many times, its select artists who do have ultimate control. the majority dont.

ALBUMS. albums are important. and have a worth. SINGLES are just promo pieces. if there is no album to support the single, the value of the single is fairly worthless. that is what the industry is operating on right now.

the ALBUM. thats not something that can be downloaded and stolen easily. its the songs put into sequence, its a whole package to the fan. the lyrics, the artwork... i think a fan will download a song or 4 but to go to all the trouble of the album would be a lot bigger project than dropping $10 on a CD at the store.

but the live element cant be underestimated, and ultimately the POINT to being a musician. if you cant connect with the fans, how in the hell do you expect for them to pay for your music? i live in a secondary market. i know people who travel up to 4 hours away to see bands in the larger markets. not just kids but adults as well. and there are only so many larger markets across the US. its worth it for the artists to hit the secondary markets as well anyway. there are 365 days in a year. a lot of shows to be played.

[heinz]

Originally posted by alphajerk
and steely dan fans are weird like rush fans.

HEY now... Rush built a good majority of their fan base by touring and their live shows. In fact, they didn't really enjoy airplay and solid record sales until well into their careers.

And then they went straight into HELL.

[PlugHead]

FWIW,

What about albums made primarily as a studio creation - never intended to be totally replicated live? talking strictly with the recording medium as an art form (i.e Sleep, Mr Bungle {tho they do tour, I am sure it isn't anywhere near album likeness}, or groups like XTC, that are killer musicians/songwriters, but don't tour at all, yet rely on the studio, and record sales as a vehicle for sustainability/creativity?

I will sorely miss the "album" as a journey: a musical ride that is experienced from beginning to end, and entails all that the industry is missing nowadays: there are still reasons for making "albums" and not anything related to touring/live shows, and that, hopefully, will never change.

[blackcatdigi]

Hey Alpha,

Great idea for a thread!

I agree in theory with a lot of what you're saying...

But there are a lot of other factors involved to consider.

Live Music:

Live music appears to be on life support if not dead, altogether. Blame it on whatever you like. Raising the drinking age to 21, MADD raising hell, DUI checkpoints outside the club, "Zero Tolerance", Nintendo, or the simple fact that music is simply not as important or relevant to society as it once was.

The bands you referrence are all 'Jam Bands' as you put it. (I call 'em 'Noodlers'...Personally, excepting the Allmans, I can't stand that shit. I find it irratating... Bunch of wannabe hippies jerking off onstage, never 'arriving' anywhere. "Write a ****ing song with a chorus and a hook, buddy!" If I wanted to see a bunch of guys 'jerking off' I'd rent a porn.)
But that's just my opinion, and I digress...

Back to the point:
The bands you speak of are all exceptions. Freak accidents in direct opposition to working business principles. To base the 'New Business Model' on 'happenstance' is suspect.
These bands built followings from years of touring relentlessly, playing night after night, year after year, living way below poverty levels. Now that's fine for an 18 year old, but should so-called 'Professionals' endure this to maybe one day, if the planets properly allign, make enough money to buy a Big Mac?

It's the old catch-22. How do you draw a crowd if no-one has ever heard of you and nobody goes out to see live music anyway?

In the 60's, 70's, hell even to a degree the 80's and 90's, this was possible. You COULD build a following through playing out. But that shit is over.

Again I ask "How do you build a following if no-one has ever heard of you and nobody goes out to see live music anyway?" The answer is YOU DON'T.

BTW, you know where I'm at geographically. I'm just down the street from you. I know what's (not) happening in your town, and you know what's (not) happening in mine. Same thing.

Here is a point for you to ponder:
Bands around here are a dime a dozen. We've got a rock club in town with live music (God bless 'em) 6 nights a week. Minimum of 3 or 4 bands a night. Usually half dozen or more. And the only people in the club are the bands themselves, their girlfriends, and the club staff. The club literally depends on THE BANDS' own 'drinking habits' to KEEP THE LIGHTS ON. The bands don't get paid; They PAY TO PLAY. For the other bands enjoyment. How can this be remedied? These bands can theoretically continue playing here, week after week, year after year, and they're never going to build a following, because no one is ever going to hear them play. So what is the benefit? How does this factor into your remedy?

AJ, you know I'm not trying to 'take you to task'... I (like yourself) want to affect positive change. This is pitiful. I've played in clubs for over 25 years, from the time I was 11, and I made a hell of alot more money playing music when I was in Junior High School, than any of these kids are ever going to make...

So, What is going to refocus society on music? Cuz right now, the kids don't care.

[Kris]

blackcatdigi, you are absolutely wrong ... Live music is alive and well and as great as it ever was...

pull your head out of the sand and look around... I'm wondering if Nintendo has got the best of you! Check out the line up for the recent High Sierra Harvest Fest, or Bonnaroo, or Magnolia Fest, and actually LISTEN to the music and SONGS... and quit making bogus generalizations...

IMHO.

Gov't Mule
MoFro
Tishamingo
The Donna Hopkins Band
Moe
Motet
Snake Oil Medicine Show
North Mississippi Allstars
Blue String


All building large fanbase hinged on killer live shows playing SONGS with great hooks, melodies, solos, textures, and performances...

The list is virtually endless...

[Mike O]

Kris -

In your area are there as many places for local musicians to play live music as there were 10-15 years ago? Just curious. Many places I have lived and worked in the past 20 years have many fewer places than there were a few years ago.

Many folks more familiar with where they live than I say similar things about their areas. For example lots of people participating in different genres tell me that about the NY area. Less live Jazz places on the corner, less places for blues, rock, soul, R&B. I could not vouch for their observations about the NY area.

Other people tell me the same thing about much smaller areas where it is much easier to quantify. People I know well and trust who are excellent players (cross genre) can create lists of the places that often played 5 or ten years ago and where they can play now. They also report that the money is no more than 15 years ago and in many cases less.

This of course does not discount your list nor is in meant to. There are real musicians playing about and making money.

You seem to think that it just our perception that there are less live places to play. And that could be. Or maybe I just read that into your post. It just doesn't seem to me to be the case.

[Kris]

Yes, I have been living in N Florida for 12 yrs... The live music scene has fluctuated over the years but in the last 3-5 yrs, there are more places to play and real musicians are making more money... There are more large festivals than there have been in years and they are selling out and/or making money... from my perspective the live music scene is better than ever...

I also feel that it is mainly BECAUSE of the quality of the music/musicians/bands that have put in the time over the last few years... there are so many killer bands out there right now... just find them, cause they are working hard to find you (the fans)... when blackcatdigi talks of anywhere from 3 to a dozen bands playing the same venue on the same evening, my guess is that they may not be all that great...I may be wrong, but any decent band I know isn't going to play a gig like that..., When I go out to see a band in a club, I want to see them rock all night, not hack for 20 minutes...

I think a city or regions scene is directly tied to the talent of the bands that play there... If they are good, the music lovers want to see them... it is truly contagious...

[Mike O]

Originally posted by Kris from my perspective the live music scene is better than ever...

... when blackcatdigi talks of anywhere from 3 to a dozen bands playing the same venue on the same evening, my guess is that they may not be all that great...I may be wrong, but any decent band I know isn't going to play a gig like that..., When I go out to see a band in a club, I want to see them rock all night, not hack for 20 minutes...

I think a city or regions scene is directly tied to the talent of the bands that play there... If they are good, the music lovers want to see them... it is truly contagious... [/B]

I'm glad to hear you feel that it is going well there.

Re: "3 to a dozen bands playing the same venue on the same evening". I tend to agree with you that I would like to see a band play the whole evening. But I think it might be a mistake to assume that these bands can't play. At least Portland, OR had a scene a few years ago (not sure if they still do) that used shows like this a lot and there were some VERY good bands that played. The same bands also had a few other gigs. A few of them actually made their living off music with varying degrees of success.

As far as the "city or regions scene being directly related to the talent that play there." Don't they have to have a place to actually play?

Re: "It is truly contagious." Totally agree. But you can't catch somthing you can't get close to.

In any case I truly hope most scenes across the country are more like yours! If so there are enough places for good bands to play for decent money perhaps more people will be able to actually make a living at it.

Then again maybe they will work other non-related day jobs.

[alphajerk]

the orange peel here in town sells out more than it doesnt. i have been to shows here on a wednesday night that were packed.... and on a friday night that was empty depending on the band. but there are certainly joints here in town that are SLAMMED every night of the weekend with some shitty cover house band playing. meat market. its about exposing the people there to real live music. it doesnt take much to sway things, less than you would think.


and you can not like jam bands, but it isnt happenstance. its a formula that WORKS.

you know, its ****ed up when someone posts how things could change and open a forum for discussion towards ideas that could work and all people post are negative ideas to tear it down. no wonder the biz is ****ed.

[aardvark]

Originally posted by alphajerk

you know, its ****ed up when someone posts how things could change and open a forum for discussion towards ideas that could work and all people post are negative ideas to tear it down. no wonder the biz is ****ed.

Well... questioning peoples positions and points of view to get a better understanding of how a disparite group of qualified professionals feel about an important issue is hardly ****ed..it is how we generate new thoughts on matters of gravitas.

This kind of discussion enables many to refine their thinking and invariably forces one to re-examine long held beliefs as per the staus quo.

Many folks here seem to have enjoyed your entreatment of the topic...why so glum???


Cheers,
Aardvark

[blackcatdigi]

Originally posted by alphajerk
the orange peel here in town sells out more than it doesnt. i have been to shows here on a wednesday night that were packed.... and on a friday night that was empty depending on the band.

I was there on a wednesday night a couple of weeks ago. National act in support of a new record. 50 people tops.

Nice place.

Originally posted by alphajerk
but there are certainly joints here in town that are SLAMMED every night of the weekend with some shitty cover house band playing. meat market. its about exposing the people there to real live music. it doesnt take much to sway things, less than you would think.

At least it's a shitty band. Could be a shitty DJ. At least the shitty cover band gets paid a shitty wage. Maybe they write shitty songs on their days off. Maybe you or I record their shitty original songs, financed by their paying gig. Either way, the shitty gig is still live music and very real. Tell me more on the swaying of things.

Originally posted by alphajerk
and you can not like jam bands, but it isnt happenstance. its a formula that WORKS.

Perhaps. They do seem to be the rare exceptions of skirting the labels' road to success.

My likes aren't really that relevant to the topic(?) but you mentioned a particular genre I don't care for... I'm sure there are many genres of music I like very much that you would find even more distasteful...

What are the jam bands doing right that other genres are not?

Originally posted by alphajerk
you know, its ****ed up when someone posts how things could change and open a forum for discussion towards ideas that could work and all people post are negative ideas to tear it down. no wonder the biz is ****ed.

Thanks

Here's where you lose me. I've pointed out some (well, yes, negative) observations regarding a common interest, in the hopes of affecting positive change...

Ain't that what we're talking about?

[mpr3]

My 2 penii.

The world is changing faster than ever before. People are hitting extremes in everything including their own consciousness which dictates taste in music.

With regards to music listeners, there seems to be a black and white scenario developing here; those that want a fantasy, and those that want actual experience.

Want fantasy? Try Jiggy Rap, Cock Rock or Pageant Pop. Luckily I feel the world is finally moving beyond this kind of music, although it is currently going out with a bang! God please make this stop! I have a child coming!

Patience. Soon enough the music will shift from fantasy based to experiential based and the labels will follow. Remember, the labels have no SOUL, they are spiritually blind, bankrupt, impotent. They look for 'sure things'. If teenagers scream when they hear JLO or Linkin PARK, the labels get hardons.

Teenagers always express the most ****ed up attributes of humanity, so why the hell should we allow them to dictate our art?

Someone needs to remind the labels that they are art dealers and thus need to act responsibly. History teaches us that art is a powerful social mover, and yet our current dealers feed us the most ego driven, sugar coated, pathetically shallow music imaginable. MTV? Rock Radio? Urban Radio?

The live music scene here Hawaii rules. Recording is becoming a creative adventure more and more. This is why the major studios are going BYE BYE. You need time to capture JAM and edit artistically.

No more verse, chorus, hook, verse, bridge, outro BULLSHIT. This is not the ****in 80s. It is now about freedom of Soul, not freedom of EGO. What do you really want?

Your mind either expands or contracts. Your choice.

[blackcatdigi]

Howdy Mark!

Originally posted by mpr3
Teenagers always express the most ****ed up attributes of humanity, so why the hell should we allow them to dictate our art?

I disagree. I think that they polarize humanity. Good and bad, and somewhat unrefined or raw. Real.

They've also certainly been a major factor in defining (what IS) popular music for 50 years or so. If the kids dig it, it's a hit! Right?

Originally posted by mpr3
Recording is becoming a creative adventure more and more. This is why the major studios are going BYE BYE. You need time to capture JAM and edit artistically.

BS. Simple economics. The major studios are going BYE BYE because no one can afford them based on the expected profits to be recouped from the product they produce. And cause everyone can just do it all in their bedroom anyway, right?

And I thought the spirit of jam was in the jamming, not the editing...

Originally posted by mpr3
No more verse, chorus, hook, verse, bridge, outro BULLSHIT. This is not the ****in 80s. It is now about freedom of Soul, not freedom of EGO.

Your mind either expands or contracts. Your choice.

Maybe it's the 60's? Oh, I get it. You're talking about JAZZ...

I prefer I>V>C>V2>C2>B>C3>O for a standard arrangement.

I'd also prefer my mind stay the same size, as it fits my skull just right.

So What?

What thoughts are you trying to express?

I really didn't enter into this thread to discuss the merits of various new or not new musical styles or genres. If the topic is how new jazz bands are gonna save the musical performing arts, I'm in the wrong ****ing thread...

How are musicians going to develop their craft and find an audience?

[mpr3]

Originally posted by blackcatdigi
They've also certainly been a major factor in defining (what IS) popular music for 50 years or so. If the kids dig it, it's a hit!

Are you saying that the commercial outlets do not smell like teen spirit to you?

BS. Simple economics. The major studios are going BYE BYE because no one can afford them based on the expected profits to be recouped from the product they produce. And cause everyone can just do it all in their bedroom anyway, right?

Casey, my point is that as the recording becomes more and more creative (ie Flaming Lips, Wilco, Sigur Ros, Sparklehorse, Radiohead, etc) and not just a regurgitation, studio time will increase and labels (or the bands themselves) will not blow their budgets at high priced studios where the clock is ticking.

This is why it has been predicted that producer-based studios will thrive in the future. The producer is involved with the band on a personal level, and in some cases is investing unpaid time with the band working on a creative adventure. Producers become the A&R guys that then market to the bigs or indies.

And I thought the spirit of jam was in the jamming, not the editing...

Yep, but these days in the studio the JAM can be treated in a non-linear fashion (DAW), and the results are often very fresh sounding. Let's call it an all around creative JAM where art and technology interact with eachother. Let's take a live JAM session then break it down and build it up again. A technical arrangement of creative moments, ala Wilco style. This is the future. Over-produced, hi-fi cock rock is fad that must die.

Maybe it's the 60's? Oh, I get it. You're talking about JAZZ...

No, I am talking about any form of music that successfully channels the human Spirit.

I prefer I>V>C>V2>C2>B>C3>O for a standard arrangement.

What thoughts are you trying to express?

I am trying to express the only worthy future in music. And you better hope I am ****ing right or the apocalypse is upon us.

How are musicians going to develop their craft and find an audience?

IMO, making music for the sake of being famous is a failure in itself.

Good music finds good people.

Why don't you have some faith bruddah?

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by blackcatdigi
My likes aren't really that relevant to the topic(?) but you mentioned a particular genre I don't care for... I'm sure there are many genres of music I like very much that you would find even more distasteful...

What are the jam bands doing right that other genres are not?

connecting with a fanbase while ignoring the marketing hype that the majors are based on. seems like a pretty big thing.

i dont particularly care for some of the bands i listed either. you wont ever see me at a phish concert... i didnt even like oysterhead all that much either.... but this thread isnt about what you like stylistically. its not about what *I* like or what you like to listen to. its about recognizing something that works.

it isnt happenstance: a circumstance especially that is due to [a : something that happens unpredictably without discernible human intention or observable cause b : the assumed impersonal purposeless determiner of unaccountable happenings : LUCK c : the fortuitous or incalculable element in existence : CONTINGENCY]

no more happenstance than anyones lives period.

its about reorganizing priorities. labels sell fame and supposed fortune to get artists to sign their souls away. they arent selling music, they are selling fame. i am talking about selling MUSIC again.

im not singling you out as being the devils advocate... i just find it odd people search for flaws instead of building on an idea to change what obviously doesnt work.



i dont know what artist you saw there on a wednesday night that was national and why only 50 people showed up... but every show i have been to there has been sold out. i didnt even get to see ween there last week because it was sold out and too lazy to get in touch with the owner to get on the guest list [that and no baby sitter that night]

[Mike O]

I for one am not searching for flaws and indeed agree with much of what you say. Especially regarding your original post and DJs getting to play what they want. Clear channel et al is the devil incarnate.

I too am looking for alternatives.

I too believe that audiences DO respond to real people playing music together well.

I also agree with your recent statement that this is or should be genre independant. Maybe some of this starts with each of us opening our mind to music we are not initially drawn to. Kind of like food. All kinds I didn't initially care for, but upon repeated exposure cooked by a good chef, served live (not frozen or fast food) I have come to like all sorts of things.

But I tried to raise the issue of where is it that local bands/artists can play these various styles. Stating that I think in many areas there are less places for local and developing musicians to play was not trying to shoot down your proposals for some sort of change. Rather I think it supports what you are suggesting. We need more live music.

I think maybe we have the same question. How do we get MORE people irrespective of genre to a) be able to play live what they believe in live b) draw audiences to it?

1) Expose more people to live music (of any kind) at an early age.
2) Support any school programs that teach kids the rudiments of music and potential performance. Band, Chorus, etc.
3) Encoruage musicians in our local communities to get involved whith kids. Maybe after school in some way. Or maybe the local rock god or jaxxbo does a seminar with band students re: what it is people actually do to play, write, arrange. Have the kids actually try to play something. Or improvise noise. The key is fun.

Why all the focus on kids (the younger the better)? Because I believe that our early experiences at a minimum create a curiosity and at best a real interest.

4) Do everything we can to turn back the hands of time and ownership of multiple stations in the same geographic area

5) Support live music in genres you don't find yourself attracted to.

6) Help put together shows or a co-op where young developing musicians can try themsoelves out.

You don't like these ideas? You got some? Let's hear them.

P.S. Notice that I personally am not focusing on major, touring acts. In my opinion, much more music used to be heard live in relatively small venues than it is now. More local bars often have a DJ now.

Others obviously disagree. No problem.

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by Mike O
P.S. Notice that I personally am not focusing on major, touring acts. In my opinion, much more music used to be heard live in relatively small venues than it is now. More local bars often have a DJ now.

or worse... musak.

there is a severe homogenization happening now. scenes that used to be unique to location are slowly being eaten away at so no town is any different than any other town.

im not focusing on major acts either... it has to start at a grassroots level. that is where the focus needs to be applied. bands SHOULDNT sell 10 million albums out the gate.... its like taking some junior leager and putting them straight into the show.... and their talent "created" [especially with the proliferation of beat detective and autotune... and to some extent soundreplacer] they have GOT to be able to pull it off in real time. why waste time marketing something that only has image and no substance. it makes no sense.