How do YOU find clients? (or, "A litany of complaints from a struggling engineer")

[uncle duncan]

Welcome to reality. If your "vibe" isn't right, no amount of rationalizing is going to change that. Perhaps it's time to either move or take on some kind of partner with sales ability.

As we get older, we discover that success entails many intangibles, one of them being the ability to get people to like us. If people don't like you, it won't matter how good you are at what you do, they're going to go with the person they like. If you could find a musician who's plugged into the scene and popular, perhaps you could work out a deal with that musician to bring in work in exchange for a cut of the profit, especially if that musician could act as the liaison between you and the client. Let the other guy be the producer (under your direction) so you don't have to get involved the the client.

Producers either need to have that magic charisma that engenders trust in others, or they need the type of connections that empowers them to be jerks. (Phil Spector comes to mind.) If you have neither of these qualities, I'd suggest you're in the wrong line of work. Sucks, I know, but that's reality.

[crosscutred]

Life is a lot easier if you don't feel contempt for everyone around you.

[slackstallion]

Musicians are the worst people on earth after teabaggers

[dented42ford]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

Welcome to reality. If your "vibe" isn't right, no amount of rationalizing is going to change that. Perhaps it's time to either move or take on some kind of partner with sales ability.

As we get older, we discover that success entails many intangibles, one of them being the ability to get people to like us. If people don't like you, it won't matter how good you are at what you do, they're going to go with the person they like. If you could find a musician who's plugged into the scene and popular, perhaps you could work out a deal with that musician to bring in work in exchange for a cut of the profit, especially if that musician could act as the liaison between you and the client. Let the other guy be the producer (under your direction) so you don't have to get involved the the client.

Producers either need to have that magic charisma that engenders trust in others, or they need the type of connections that empowers them to be jerks. (Phil Spector comes to mind.) If you have neither of these qualities, I'd suggest you're in the wrong line of work. Sucks, I know, but that's reality.

In spite of my rather acerbic attitude here on the interwebz, I don't find myself having this problem that often - meaning, the problem of not being liked. Quite the opposite, in fact - I often feel that I'm too nice, leaving myself open to people to feel like they can [ab]use my generosity and general kindness. I know that I said I can be confrontational in #14, and I am, but it really is only in comparison to the general attitude I encounter here in LA. People here, by and large, have a cultural bias towards passivity that goes against everything I have been taught, and learned, in my life. My attitude may be a problem, and it certainly seems to have been as of late (as I have been, to put it mildly, peeved at the childish pique I've been subjected to), but it is only recently that I really started to notice just how differently people approach things here. I am convinced that people here really do think that confrontation, in the sense of "you did something wrong" rather than "f'n do it this way, moron", is a thing that is bad and best avoided. If I were merely talking about, say, being a jerk about things - which is of course a bad attitude, most of the time - then saying that my attitude is a problem would be completely fair. I'm not a jerk, in fact I am basically incapable of intentionally insulting someone (I just don't think that way). What I am is inquisitive and [constructively] critical - both things that I find people here in LA don't like, for some reason. Hence the "moan" - if I believed it was entirely my fault, I wouldn't be complaining!

In the past I have had partners, of sorts, who did exactly what you suggest that they do. I am by no means opposed to that idea at all - in fact I prefer it, most of the time, for various reasons - but I haven't found anyone as of late that I feel would be a good candidate. See #8 - I just don't know how to go about meeting people in this town. Those with experience have utter disdain for anyone who does not have a "rep", and those without are, well, walking stereotypes by and large. That is a gross generalization, of course - I am quite sure that there are a great many good, competent, and generally friendly engineers in this town, I just have no clue how to go about meeting them, given the relative isolation I've found myself in. I just want to know where to start!

I also disagree with your third point, that you have to either have a magical charisma or connections/money to succeed. Well, actually, I don't so much disagree with it as hope it isn't true - it would put yet another dent in my belief that what you do, and how you do it, actually matters more than superficialities such as who you know and how good you are at making (manipulating) people into liking or respecting you. In my experience up 'till now, I haven't seen that be the case - but in Los Angeles, at least, the city of everything and nothing at all, the city of plastic, glass, and silicone, the city where nothing is as it appears because everything has to appear like everything else, it may just be true. And that would suck.

Originally Posted by crosscutred

Life is a lot easier if you don't feel contempt for everyone around you.

I don't. It's called the "moan zone", and I took that literally! I rarely feel contempt - it is frustration that has made me think these things, not contempt.

And though I know you were simply trying to dismiss what I'm saying, I have a counterargument for you:

What's the difference between contempt, entitlement, and justified aggravation? I believe it to be this:
Contempt is feeling that everyone around you is beneath you. Entitlement is feeling that you are owed things without cause. Justified aggravation is seeing the follies of those around you, and of yourself, and feeling as though you should try to do something to help, or at least understand.
The problem is, all three can often look like the same thing from an objective viewpoint. They are all forms of judgment - the difference is from whence the judgment emanates, whether from ego (contempt), petulance (entitlement), or reason (anger).

One of my biggest problems with the attitude that aggrivates me so much here is that people can't actually tell the difference between the three. They don't even try anymore. It has become easier just to dismiss all critical viewpoints as destructive (if you don't have something nice to say, etc), rather than taking the time and energy to actually address things that may actually be problems. It is a culture-wide version of sticking one's fingers in ones ear's and closing one's eyes and expecting the house to stop burning on its own...

Originally Posted by slackstallion

Musicians are the worst people on earth after teabaggers

I don't even know why I bothered to multiquote this poor attempt at sarcasm...

Oh, it was because I had to look up "teabagger" in urban dictionary. In which sense did you intend it, as a reference to homosexuality, politico-religion, or simple *********gery? It was not at all clear from your post, and I'd really like to know!

[projektk]

It takes time to get clients. It comes down to marketing. For example you could drop off a flyer at a school with a coupon for $10 an hour or even some free hours to the first 25 who call. You could go down to a retirement home and leave flyers for recording their life stories or even a last message to their loved ones for when they pass.

I don't try hard to get clients because I have a full time job. However I managed to get a client recently by keeping my studio Facebook page active. I have a Hackintosh, Saffire Pro 40, 3 GIK 242 panels and an AT2020. Recording in an untreated garage, not only did I charge $20 an hour with the little I have but I also surprised the artist. He was very impressed with his session.



Sent from my LG-P925 using Gearslutz App

[dented42ford]

Originally Posted by projektk

It takes time to get clients. It comes down to marketing. For example you could drop off a flyer at a school with a coupon for $10 an hour or even some free hours to the first 25 who call. You could go down to a retirement home and leave flyers for recording their life stories or even a last message to their loved ones for when they pass.

I don't try hard to get clients because I have a full time job. However I managed to get a client recently by keeping my studio Facebook page active. I have a Hackintosh, Saffire Pro 40, 3 GIK 242 panels and an AT2020. Recording in an untreated garage, not only did I charge $20 an hour with the little I have but I also surprised the artist. He was very impressed with his session.

I've tried stuff like that - though, never at the school/nursing home level, as it strikes me as a bit usury. I spent $100 printing up ads - nothing too sensational or special, mind you, but attention grabbing - and putting them around town, at venues, amoeba, music stores, etc. - about a year ago. I got something like 5 calls off of it. None of the people panned out - four flakes and the aforementioned diva with a problem with virtual strings.

It is worth trying again, though, and I do feel I have a better handle on the local market than I did a year ago - thanks, I think you helped rather a lot.

As to your full-time job, I can't seem to find one of them - part of the reason I'm so crotchety as of late is that I spend the better part of the day sending resumes, trying to find a job of any kind that doesn't involve burning myself. I do have to say, though, that I remember those sessions, and those people - those sessions that were just fun, because everyone wanted to be there and the goal was simple and known, and where people payed because they felt they should rather than because they thought they had to...

I miss those days, and those people...

[slackstallion]

i wish there was an emoticon of a single tear drop.

this is an internet forum, not a diary.

if you are emo introspective type, LA is the last place you move.

a teabagger is a teaparty member. i was empathizing with you.

[frans]

You're not having fun and you seem to go nowhere. Why do you drag yourself through all this? Is this like you want to spend your time?
Of course working for free is ungrateful, because if it's free, it's not worth anything, you aren't worth of anything and most people can't deal with getting a gift, which work for free amounts to.
How do you meet talented folks to team up with? Be where they are. For example here is what I did (but not as a conscious plan on my side): I was in a band and ended up being the guy who read the manuals, always had to set up stuff for the others, who were too lazy or pretended to not understand where to plug what cable. Then I helped others with setting up PA systems, because I had practice. Then I mixed shows, because I ended up doing that a lot. I was the ubiquitous sound guy every musician knew, all the while having fun at home in my parents basement with a 4track, me and my friends. I got a handful of mics (and so on). You don't go where the musicians are, you won't get to know them, they don't know you, game over.
But the bottom line is: it's no fun, but it should. Ever considered moving or quitting? Or at least changing yourself?

[uncle duncan]

Originally Posted by dented42ford

....I also disagree with your third point, that you have to either have a magical charisma or connections/money to succeed. ....

Example: Studio A has a charismatic engineer/owner, the kind of guy who tells the client their songs are killer when they're actually horrid. Just being in this guy's presence makes the client feel "special". It's the charisma, and the fact that he's a natural born salesman. His musical chops are lacking, he has a tin ear, but that doesn't matter because his clients are getting what they want from him - a professional, overproduced product that "sounds killer" (his words) and costs a small fortune.

Studio B is run be a musical genius (or perhaps close-to-genius would be more like it.) This guy won't even take you on as a client if your music sucks. This guy makes people uncomfortable because he has a great ear, which makes it difficult for him to heap praise on the undeserving and the marginally talented. This guy can turn any song into magic by virtue of his production skills, but it ain't gonna happen because his "vibe" isn't right.

This is how real life goes. You see it everywhere - the always-smiling (and incompetent) dude who's running the car dealership, or he's the office manager, or a famous politician... The dude doesn't have a clue, he has to rely on his employees to get things done, but he's successful because he's a "winner".

Your initial post seemed to portray your situation as that of a guy who was losing work to the "winner" types. That leads to the conclusion that you either need to learn how to act like a winner, or work with someone who has has the winner vibe down.

If you're interested in relocating, you might look into a couple of towns in southern Arizona. The last I heard, Sierra Vista was in need of a mid-range (under $50 per hour) studio. Bisbee, an old mining town, has a vibrant music scene, but I don't know the studio situation down there. Tucson - my market - is over-saturated, as I'm sure most large cities are. If you speak espanol, we get a lot of bands coming up from Mexico to record. It's fun music.

If you're really desperate, there's always the Christian scene. Those folks always seem to have money to spend on their music. There's also the corporate market (commercials, video post), but I would think in a place like LA those slots would already be filled. Some studios support their music projects with corporate work, which makes sense these days. Come to think of it, I've done a few books on tape, which you might be able to tap into at a book fair. (We just had a national book fair here a month ago, but it didn't occur to me to market the studio there. As I recall, I was working...)

Good luck, my friend. I suspect you're going to need it.

[baslotto]

Good topic!
I recently moved to LA too and I feel in the same boat.
I'm working part time giving myself time to connect by social life. In 6 months not a client but I have no space to record loud music so I'm blaming that.
So far I have an on location job in the oven. 2 classical guitarists at one of them's house.
After the first session they told me it sounds better than the recording studio they were using and that gave me a positive vibe.
I'm producing a rock band for free to keep myself warm with great sounds.
Just by the sound I'm getting I feel happy.
I can't buy stuff with happiness so I'm hoping this will pay off eventually but I feel your comments about LA are spot on.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

The problems you describe are anywhere not just in LA. I live and work in rural America and experience the same problems you describe. People today do not want to pay for anything to do with recording except maybe for equipping their own studios. The age of the DIYer is with us and will be for a while.

Finding clients has always been tricky it is even more so now with so many studios completing for business. When I started into business there was only one other person in this area doing mastering now there are a least 100 places doing "mastering" in the same area. Within 100 miles of my studio there are 600 recording studios that advertise on the WWW or in the Yellow pages and who knows how many studios there are that are in people's homes.

The audio business is cut throat and getting meaner all the time.

A lot of people love to do recording and want to share their expertise with those around them and will do the recording for little or no money. It is hard to compete with free. I can imagine in LA there are literally 10s of thousands of in home recording studios and many of them are competing with each other for work. To differentiate yourself from the masses and to be able to make enough money to live must be a Herculean task and I cannot think it is easy or enjoyable for you.

Best of luck and let us know how things are going


ps. The BEST and LEAST expensive way to advertise is WORD OF MOUTH and if you do, as others have suggested, find a musician you can work with and you do a superior job for him or her the word will spread like wildfire and hopefully your problems will be long gone.

[unitymusic]

The few recording projects I've actually done for people other than myself came about by me actually knowing the musicians. Some of them I've known from skateboarding in high school, others I met from open mics or playing shows together. Go out to open mics and talk to the people you think are good. Don't approach them by trying to sell them studio time, just talk to them and try to establish a relationship; maybe mention you have a studio but don't push the idea of them recording at it just yet. Musicians like to connect with people, so give them a website address, connect on facebook and keep in contact. Get to know their music, and if you feel like you could do a good job on their stuff tell them why and offer them a good deal.

At least that's my advice, as someone who is in not too different of a situation as you, though far less in debt/invested monetarily, so you're situation is a bit more urgent. Best of luck.

-Danny

[DaveE]

In response to your reply in the other thread

Originally Posted by dented42ford

Your final comment, the premise of which I agree with wholeheartedly, suggests to me that you already HAVE a client base, that you are pretty well set or believe yourself to be.

I certainly am not "well set" but I really can't complain. Although I'm lucky to have a nice network of paying customers, the best decision I made was to get a day job. I work 40 hours there and do another 20-60 hours per week at my home studio. Maybe that makes any advice from me null and void, but it's definitely helped me to feel more comfortable. Basically I realized it will be ages before I can ever clear $50k a year from just music gigs alone. I did 2 years of "freelance only" and although I survived, it was VERY slim and I was eating LOTS of ramen.

As far as getting customers (I've removed "clients" from my vocabulary)...

The thing I've found is that nobody wants to hear me talk about how awesome I am. That needs to come from a 3rd party to have any credibility. Because of that I offer extremely generous referral inventives (free recordings on my terms). I also don't approach people like a salesman pimping my "studio". Sometimes I won't even tell them what I do unless they ask. I generally just try and be "buddies" first and look for any opportunity to flex my musical abilities (not engineering). Musicians want to work with musicians, not techs. I try and sell myself as a producer since I enjoy helping people improve their songs more than I enjoy just hitting record.

Another way to expand your network is to hire a team. When you've got hired session musicians and a separate tracking/mixing/mastering engineer, everyone on the team is sharing the project with their buddies: "Hey, look what I worked on this week," which is obviously good for everyone involved. Instead of one tiny network, you're dealing with 2-3 extra which can lead to questions like "who tracked/mixed/mastered that?"

I'm about 40 minutes north of L.A. and people ask me all the time, "If you want a career in music, why haven't you moved to Hollywood?" Your story (and traffic ) is the reason why. There are just too many damn people out there and the people I've met from L.A. don't seem to mind driving 40 minutes to my place.

Good luck! Try and stay positive.

[dented42ford]

Originally Posted by slackstallion

i wish there was an emoticon of a single tear drop.

this is an internet forum, not a diary.

a teabagger is a teaparty member...

An internet forum with the title of "moan zone", yet people seem to be taking my complaints, which (while I admit written in something of a polemic manner) have actual merit and thought, as being strictly indicative of my attitude...

As to the teabagger, I have heard it used more in several other ways - I was being sarcastic myself in the my response, which may have been a bit less than clear.

Originally Posted by frans

You're not having fun and you seem to go nowhere. Why do you drag yourself through all this?
...
Of course working for free is ungrateful, because...
most people can't deal with getting a gift, which work for free amounts to.
...
How do you meet talented folks to team up with? Be where they are.
...
But the bottom line is: it's no fun, but it should. Ever considered moving or quitting? Or at least changing yourself?

Why do I drag myself through this? Simply put, because I love what I do, when I actually get to do it. I love making music great, occasionally getting to put my stamp on it; I love the process of working on songs, talking through options, working on arrangements; I even love writing charts, for those times that I get it into my head that, say, some strings or horns would be cool (though it never actually pans out that way - always money).

If it were simply working for free, I would keep at it. It isn't that - it is that these are people who think that if you are working for free, you are their bitch. They don't respect what you do, no matter their opinion of your talents and abilities, because "if you were actually good at this, why aren't I paying you?". There is ZERO, I mean ZERO, gratitude amongst the musicians I have had the misfortune of working with, at least here in LA. I'll say it again - THESE ARE PROBLEMS THAT I HAVE NEVER ENCOUNTERED BEFORE ELSEWHERE. The culture here just doesn't track with what people are like in any other place in this country, or any of the others in which I've lived in for that matter (though, there is a tiny bit of Tokyo to the attitude - that fear of offending strikes me as awfully close to the institutionalized honor-yet-dishonesty system in Japan).

Gotta love that last piece of "advice": Of course I've considered moving or quitting. I came here for a job, and decided to stay because, in spite of what it sounds like, I ACTUALLY LIKE IT HERE. It is on a professional level that I find myself unsatisfied, not personal or environmental. I'm not going to quit, though I have found myself in the position of having to seek other employment simply to pay the bills. That is a first for me, first time in years, and the experience of applying for jobs has greatly contributed to my annoyance at the general attitude of people here - it is mainly the "we'll call you [not]" thing, which smacks of entitlement, arrogance, and disrespect, and is the default position of everyone. For some reason, people think that saying yes, while most definitely saying no, somehow makes them "nicer"...

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

Example: Studio A has a charismatic engineer/owner, the kind of guy who tells the client their songs are killer when they're actually horrid. Just being in this guy's presence makes the client feel "special". It's the charisma, and the fact that he's a natural born salesman...

Studio B is run be a musical genius (or perhaps close-to-genius would be more like it.) This guy won't even take you on as a client if your music sucks. This guy makes people uncomfortable because he has a great ear, which makes it difficult for him to heap praise on the undeserving and the marginally talented. This guy can turn any song into magic by virtue of his production skills, but it ain't gonna happen because his "vibe" isn't right.
...
Your initial post seemed to portray your situation as that of a guy who was losing work to the "winner" types. That leads to the conclusion that you either need to learn how to act like a winner, or work with someone who has has the winner vibe down.
...
Good luck, my friend. I suspect you're going to need it.

I will admit, "studio B" sounds a lot more like me, in general. I will take any client, however - you imply that "musical genius" (which I am far from) immediately means "arrogant sonovabitch". No, I'm not some magical bullshit machine like so many I meet here - though, I am capable of it, it goes against every moral fiber in my being. I am honest, thoughtful, critical (which does not mean negative - it means "giving reasoned opinion", both positive and negative), grateful, and hard-working. I've had very few people who just didn't want to work with me - the ones who were were the whiny type, expecting to be told that everything that comes out of any of their orifices smells like roses and is made of gold. Yet, these same qualities that made sure I had a constant flow of projects in the past have felt like liabilities since I moved here. Humility is seen as weakness, rather than wisdom, and arrogance/cockiness/dishonesty is seen not as the joke that it is elsewhere, but the norm. When you factor in the A/B way of thinking people have - of which your post is a shining example (either you are this, or you are that, nothing else) - the identity problem becomes nigh-on unbearable.

Yes, I feel I am "losing work" to the "winner" types - but not because of their attitude. As your description of said type pointed out, these guys tend to put out product of about the same quality that their mouth spouts. It has changed the paradigm amongst the little-informed, and made it difficult to compete doing anything other than stooping to their level. Perhaps you are right, perhaps I should change my attitude, become more usury, lose the honesty, start telling people what they want to hear rather than giving thoughtful criticism and advice. It certainly seems to be working for others...

Originally Posted by baslotto

Good topic!
I recently moved to LA too and I feel in the same boat.
I'm working part time giving myself time to connect by social life. In 6 months not a client but I have no space to record loud music so I'm blaming that.
So far I have an on location job in the oven. 2 classical guitarists at one of [their] house[s].
After the first session they told me it sounds better than the recording studio they were using and that gave me a positive vibe.
I'm producing a rock band for free to keep myself warm with great sounds.
Just by the sound I'm getting I feel happy.
I can't buy stuff with happiness so I'm hoping this will pay off eventually but I feel your comments about LA are spot on.

You sound like me 18 months ago. I just figured it would take time to expand my social sphere, to get some basic projects done, to get things going smoothly. Then, the projects stopped happening. The few I was working on that felt promising evaporated. The people who I thought were actually grateful for my generosity started making demands, started complaining about everything, or simply went elsewhere (they wanted a "serious" recording - I have, not surprisingly, heard back from several in recent months that were unhappy with their new result, yet only call me to ask who I know who could do a better job, and needless to say don't want to hear "let me finish what I started").

Maybe I've just had bad luck, or bad "screening" (though, as I've been saying, screening isn't much of an option for someone with no other potentials). I actually think that is the real problem I'm having - lousy luck, and disappearing connections (many have left LA now). I haven't lost hope, not in the slightest, nor have I become one of the truly hateful people who blames all their problems on others - but I have seen myself, especially as I'm forced to search for a "real job", slipping onto that path inadvertently.

If you ever want to get together and talk about it, give me a PM. I have nothing but time .

Originally Posted by DaveE

In response to your reply in the other thread

I certainly am not "well set" but I really can't complain. Although I'm lucky to have a nice network of paying customers, the best decision I made was to get a day job. I work 40 hours there and do another 20-60 hours per week at my home studio. Maybe that makes any advice from me null and void, but it's definitely helped me to feel more comfortable. Basically I realized it will be ages before I can ever clear $50k a year from just music gigs alone.

I did 2 years of "freelance only" and although I survived, it was VERY slim and I was eating LOTS of ramen.

The thing I've found is that nobody wants to hear me talk about how awesome I am. That needs to come from a 3rd party to have any credibility. I also don't approach people like a salesman pimping my "studio".
...
Another way to expand your network is to hire a team.
...
I'm about 40 minutes north of L.A. and people ask me all the time, "If you want a career in music, why haven't you moved to Hollywood?" Your story (and traffic ) is the reason why. There are just too many damn people out there and the people I've met from L.A. don't seem to mind driving 40 minutes to my place.

Good luck! Try and stay positive.

Thanks for the good thoughts, and I am staying positive, such as it is - why don't people get that complaining, especially in a forum dedicated to such, does not necessarily mean a "negative mindset". Just another complaint.

As to being "well set", what you described is exactly what I meant - you have a set of clients that you've built relationships with who will refer people to you and be repeat customers. I don't. I have yet to get a referral, even from so-called "friends", for the self-fulfilling-prophetic reason that I never seem to finish anything - as I've pointed out, that may be partially (or even mostly) my fault, but when virtually every customer I've had has abandoned me mid-project, it is hard to give examples of recent work! In this business, you are dependent upon other people to uphold their commitments. In my recent experience, and in my observations of the city I live in, that is something that is just not possible here.

Younger people, of whom I am one, seem to by and large have no sense of honor here. They certainly have ego, and have the self-drive to actually do things (they may be lazy, but at least interestingly so), but no sense of obligation or responsibility. The prevailing, though by no means only, attitude of those I encounter is that all that really matters in any given situation is "what am I getting out of it". It isn't, strictly speaking, selfishness, but more of a "every-man-for-himself" thing taken near the logical extreme. In other words, "if I have to fend for myself, why should I care about anyone else? They don't care about me..." and so on.

As to the money thing, funnily enough for a little while I was clearing that much doing music. But that was mostly because I was spending 5-6 days a week playing gigs, both cover and original, in an area where people actually pay. That is how I afforded most of the gear I have - the rest through other projects, and the nine months I took off to have a real (~70 hour/wk) job. Now that money has run out, and I am desperate, but that is neither here nor there.

"Hire a team"? How, pray tell, am I supposed to afford that? I've certainly had that same thought before - I actually prefer working as a group, as I recognize whence my weaknesses lie. As good of an idea as it sounds, it doesn't really seem an option - asking people to work for free would be, well, exactly as we've described it here. I believe that people should be paid for their labors, no matter the kind - this concept of unpaid intern upsets me rather a lot, though I must admit to have been fortunate enough (until now, that is) to never having had to take such a position. Basically, the suggestion has given me new thoughts, and I thank you for that, but it does seem beset with potential problems.

I am glad people seem willing to drive 40 minutes to your place - I just thought it was funny, since I've had more than one [flaky] client complain about the drive from WeHo to Atwater - actually, now that I mention it, that is one of the best examples of the general problem of the "LA 'tude". I feel it pretty self-explanatory*.

Thanks all for the commentary, it has been helping me rather a lot to find solutions to the issues I've pointed out!

* To those not in the know, about 5 miles, 20 minutes without traffic, 20-90 with, but that's just LA for you.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

There is a GREAT acoustic music recording studio about 8 miles from my location. The owner is a genius and is a great musician in his own right. He started the studio because he was in a bluegrass group and they wanted to record themselves and he was getting a lot of requests from other musicians in the area that he knew to record them. The owner has incredible ears and knows his way around almost every acoustic instrument made. He started the studio and about one year later was out of business. The reasons were many but some of them were.

1. He did not record music he did not personally like.

2. He did not want to work with inferior artist and let them know that in no uncertain terms.

3. He was a GREAT engineer but took on the role of producer even though he was not asked to provide that service. Some times he would even come out and take the instrument away from the artist and play the lick the way he thought it should sound. He was also very vocal about how bad someone played their instrument or how off key their singing was. In short he was taking on way to much and the bands and artists started resenting his interference. He would also want to have a major say in the way things were mixed and finally took on the role of mastering engineer as well. He was not just the recording, mixing and mastering engineer he was also the producer and the A&R person all rolled into one.

4. He raised his rates because he thought that his low rates were attracting the wrong kind of musicians.

After about another 1/2 year his business fell to nothing and he had to stop doing the music and find outside work. He still has his studio but it sits vacant most of the year.

GREAT engineer, great facility but going nowhere fast.

I really feel sorry for him but given the current climate not something that surprised me.

[DaveE]

Originally Posted by dented42ford

"Hire a team"? How, pray tell, am I supposed to afford that?

Same way you'd hire a session musician- explain the benefit to the artist and talk them into paying for it. When I freelance at a nice studio I don't pay for it myself, I break down the costs up front and say, "this is how much it will cost to work in the nice studio". When it's time to pay the deposit I tell them, "ok, to book the room I'm going to need to get that deposit from you."

Believe me there are good people in L.A., but there is just a LOT of people so that = more filtering, asking more questions "are you going to have a problem with driving from x to y?" Ask about their goals. Are they realistic? Do they sound like someone who is going to waste your time?

Re: the unfinished projects, I'd say just mix whatever you've got and get it sounding as good as you can so you've got more ammo for your demo reel.

[marcreeves]

My suggestion?

Go to some local gigs. Get some business cards, go watch people play and go talk to them after their set. Congratulate them on a great show, introduce yourself and give them a card. Offer them a discount on your services. Make it sound like you're really excited to work with them. Make them feel like you really understand their sound and want to help them create some great recordings.

Your mention of your unwillingness to go to local gigs suggests that you're not integrating yourself in the local scene enough. The absolute best way to get to know musicians, personally and musically is by supporting them at their live shows. It's also a way to find the kind of people/music you'd like to work with. The way I have made nearly all of my contacts is by meeting people at shows (yes it does help immensely that I'm a musician/artist myself.) It's not easy and takes time but I have met some fantastic people, worked with some amazing talent and made many great friends.

[unitymusic]

Originally Posted by dented42ford

6) I'm tired of "artsy" projects, since they never go anywhere or are burdened with a level of arrogance that no god in history has displayed.

7) I'm tired of "pop" projects, because everyone seems to want to sound like everybody else, funnily enough for the same arrogant reasons that the artsy people want to sound like no one else.

8) It is incredibly difficult to find people to "network" with in this town, in spite of the glut of engineers. I blame the "avoid, not offend" attitude - I can't tell you how sick I am of "I'll call you next week". How do you guys meet other engineers local to you?

9) I hate going to see live shows here, because I almost never see any worth the price of admission. People seem to have forgotten what a "performance" is in this town...

I must not have read your entire post the first time I responded because I missed most of this. I think this is probably part of your problem. Nothing wrong with being picky, as long as you have people that fit your standard that are sometimes willing to work with you, and if you are content with the downtime between those instances.

[dented42ford]

Originally Posted by marcreeves

My suggestion?

Go to some local gigs. Get some business cards, go watch people play and go talk to them after their set. Congratulate them on a great show, introduce yourself and give them a card. Offer them a discount on your services. Make it sound like you're really excited to work with them. Make them feel like you really understand their sound and want to help them create some great recordings.

Your mention of your unwillingness to go to local gigs suggests that you're not integrating yourself in the local scene enough. The absolute best way to get to know musicians, personally and musically is by supporting them at their live shows. It's also a way to find the kind of people/music you'd like to work with. The way I have made nearly all of my contacts is by meeting people at shows (yes it does help immensely that I'm a musician/artist myself.) It's not easy and takes time but I have met some fantastic people, worked with some amazing talent and made many great friends.

That would make sense if there were some sort of coherent "local scene" here. As far as I can tell, there isn't - I spent my first year here going to shows 6-7 nights a week, and I swear I didn't run into the same person more than 2-3 times every fortnight. The closest I've found is the consistency of certain fanbases - meaning, if you go to, let's just say, The Smell a lot, then you'll run into the same people again and again - though rarely are they the same musicians again and again.

I've had several MUSICIAN friends tell me that they don't go to shows here - firstly, because of the oft-mentioned "everyone for themselves" attitude, secondly because of the cost, and thirdly because they just don't know where they'd go. The venues are scattered across this city in a way that makes "hey, lets go check those guys out" surprisingly difficult to pull off. There's also a general feeling of "shows don't matter" - I can't even tell you how disturbing it is to me, someone who has played hundreds of live shows, to hear from a self-proclaimed muscian that they would prefer not to play live. The reason? Crowds here are remarkably hostile.

I've got a question for you, assuming you are actually part of the scene in your city: When you go see some local show, do the majority of people come to see specifically one artist? Do they just leave when the person they came to see has finished playing?

Because here in the city of angels, that is the norm. People go to a local show to see the band they came to see, not to see a local show. Almost universally this is the bands friends and/or online fans. The funniest part is that these fans, as far as I can tell, see this behavior as the reasonable way to go about things - after all, they came to see THIS group, not THAT group. But it does lead to a remarkably hostile environment - little subscenes are popping up all the time around specific groups of people, isolating and insulating themselves from the rest of the musical community, if it can even be called that.

That, along with the fact that I can't go to a show for less than $20 (between gas, cover, and drinks, almost always 2 minimum that they will hold you to if they don't "know" you), keeps me from going to shows. Oh, and the fact that generally speaking, most of the groups I see look down on "performance" (ie, playing to the crowd, being engaging, or doing anything beyond dressing cool and "being appreciated") as being horribly passe and somehow corrupt.

I have been part of a vibrant scene before - in general, I agree with your sentiment. These complaints are not about the general difficulties a musical person encounters elsewhere - they are specifically related to the hostility of Los Angeles. It is truly sad, but I can't for the life of me FIND a "scene" here, other than perhaps the aforementioned DIY thing (centered around the all-ages venues such as The Smell) and the "hipster" thing, which I find unlistenably preachy, pretentious, and annoying.

I have, of late, been desperately trying to find a scene here, and failing. There is just too much of the dog-eat-dog mentality, in its many varied forms...

Originally Posted by unitymusic

I must not have read your entire post the first time I responded because I missed most of this. I think this is probably part of your problem. Nothing wrong with being picky, as long as you have people that fit your standard that are sometimes willing to work with you, and if you are content with the downtime between those instances.

If you took those statements as being "picky", I think you missed the point of them. I am not picky. I will work with any musician who truly wants to work, believes in their project, and is actually asking for help. I was saying, in what you quoted from me above, that no matter the type of musician I've worked with, with the two being mentioned (art and pop) being the vast majority of musicians I've met here, they don't actually pay attention to their own music. They pay attention to what everyone else is doing, and use that to define how their own music will be perceived by the nebulous public, and then redefine their own art based upon that. In other words, they undermine their own sense of musicality for the sake of conformity, if not to a sound, then at least to some ideal that exists outside of themselves.

In my experience as a musician, and working with musicians, who are successful, that is no way to think. If you can't be content with what you are doing as a work standing by itself, only (or primarily) judging it by some imaginary objective ideal that the community has concocted, then you are doomed. What I was bemoaning was the "image" problem here in LA - every piece of music has to "be" or "appear to be", THIS or THAT defined thing. A performance is expected to be one way, whatever that may be, and not another way, which would be too something else. Every musician I meet here, pretty much without fail, is trying to be "more" something, and that something is not "good" or "honest", it is usually "authentic" or "dark" or "deep" or "original". The sheer hypocricy of the thought "I want to be more original" doesn't even occur to them.

It is that truly authentic musician that I seek, and in that way I have become picky. I worked with anyone and everyone for too long, and now I want to work with someone who actually believes in what they are doing, not someone who claims that their music is the best ever because they suspect it not to be...

Originally Posted by DaveE

Same way you'd hire a session musician- explain the benefit to the client and talk them into paying for it. When I freelance at a nice studio I don't pay for it myself, I break down the costs up front and say, "this is how much it will cost to work in the nice studio". When it's time to pay the deposit I tell them, "ok, to book the room I'm going to need to get that deposit from you."

Believe me there are good people in L.A., but there is just a LOT of people so that = more filtering, asking more questions "are you going to have a problem with driving from x to y?" Ask about their goals. Are they realistic? Do they sound like someone who is going to waste your time?

Re: the unfinished projects, I'd say just mix whatever you've got and get it sounding as good as you can so you've got more ammo for your demo reel.

I have been finishing the unfinished projects, with the big problem being that they are missing fairly large chunks of the vocals - that makes it very hard to make them sound good! I have scratch vocals, and ten or so that were almost done that I was able to get basically finished, but the rest are almost unsalvageable, since we never got to the stage where we had an actual SONG to work with. One of my many frustrations - these are people who, even working with known-to-be-scratch songs, complain constantly about the SOUND rather than actually working on the MUSIC. I am referring not to problems inherent in my mix or recording skills, but in their perception of the song as a whole - If they wanted, say, a certain kind of synth sound, we'd often waste half a day going through synth sounds rather than getting the vocals done, and refused to even sing unless it sounded just right to them - it was the sound in their head they were searching for, and no matter how much I tried to gently steer them into "good enough" territory, it never worked (ego). So, basically, point taken, and I'm doing what I can, but it is also hard to get motivated on those projects, especially when I'm spending 8 hours a day applying for jobs!

Even if I actually had sessions to be working on, hiring people still wouldn't be an option - when you're not getting paid anything, and are short on cash, paying someone else to come in and help is not exactly an option. It isn't like a session musician - well, come to think of it, it is EXACTLY like a session musician.

My most recent fallen-through project saw me spending 5-6 hours setting up a session drummer for a band (who WANTED a session drummer), booking the time, getting ok'd on the quote, and then them cancelling the day before. Luckily I knew the session guys involved and there were no hard feelings (or charges) for the cancellation, but these "customers" made ME look like an ass to other professionals. I had screened them, we got along great, pre-pro was going forward well, and then they told me to cancel the session. I haven't heard from them since, in spite of half a dozen left messages (about twice a week). Perhaps it was my fault, maybe things weren't going as they wanted - though, if that was true, then they didn't have the common courtesy to even mention it to me. They were all gung-ho about what we were doing, and then they were gone. You tell me how YOU would handle that situation.

Now think about it if I had told them, from the beginning, that I had ANOTHER guy coming on that was helping out. That I was paying either out of pocket, or I was charging THEM for. How do you think that would have gone over?

I don't really think it is an option. If I were established in some way, it could be - actually, the idea is very attractive to me. But, in my current situation, beyond finding some kid who wants to learn and doesn't mind not getting paid, I just don't have the resources to do it.

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

There is a GREAT acoustic music recording studio about 8 miles from my location. The owner is a genius and is a great musician in his own right. He started the studio because he was in a bluegrass group and they wanted to record themselves and he was getting a lot of requests from other musicians in the area that he knew to record them. The owner has incredible ears and knows his way around almost every acoustic instrument made. He started the studio and about one year later was out of business. The reasons were many but some of them were.

1. He did not record music he did not personally like.

2. He did not want to work with inferior artist and let them know that in no uncertain terms.

3. He was a GREAT engineer but took on the role of producer even though he was not asked to provide that service. Some times he would even come out and take the instrument away from the artist and play the lick the way he thought it should sound. He was also very vocal about how bad someone played their instrument or how off key their singing was. In short he was taking on way to much and the bands and artists started resenting his interference. He would also want to have a major say in the way things were mixed and finally took on the role of mastering engineer as well. He was not just the recording, mixing and mastering engineer he was also the producer and the A&R person all rolled into one.

4. He raised his rates because he thought that his low rates were attracting the wrong kind of musicians.

After about another 1/2 year his business fell to nothing and he had to stop doing the music and find outside work. He still has his studio but it sits vacant most of the year.

GREAT engineer, great facility but going nowhere fast.

I really feel sorry for him but given the current climate not something that surprised me.

I think we've all known that guy...


I don't feel sorry for him. But don't imply, nor infer, that I am that guy, simply because I voice my frustrations. You are not the first, and will not be the last, to do so - simply because I choose to point out things I see as being wrong, I immediately am assumed to be arrogant, spiteful, self-centered, not working well with others, egocentric, jealous, and many other things that just aren't true. I see that all the time, about many people, not just myself. It doesn't make any sense, but even I have to face the fact that this is the society that we have built, the culture which we so carefully maintain: A culture of intentional ignorance, where ostriching oneself from the realities around us often leads to more success than facing the obstacles, where "I don't want to know" is not seen as a destructive statement.

Ok, so maybe my attitude, as portrayed here, is a bit overly confrontational, even rude; the only reason I am representing myself so is because I am so very, very tired of having to pretend as though everything is ok. I said it before, I can't remember whether in this thread or the other: I refuse to clap my hands over my ears, shut my eyes, and pretend that the house isn't burning. At least, not when a semi-anonymous forum exists in which I can voice my issues with much fewer repercussions than, say, telling everyone I meet that the industry sucks and everything sucks and so on and so forth.

I may be , at least here. I feel that I did make some good points, though - and very few have actually been addressed by anyone who has replied. Instead of actually addressing the issues I was trying to raise, the majority of replies have been about my "attitude problem", not the issues at hand - the only issue I even mentioned that has gotten any attention is the live music problem, and that is something that you'd actually have to have spent a fair amount of time in this city to believe, as I don't believe the problems here exist on the same scale anywhere else. This lack of attention to detail does not surprise me, in fact it is something I've come to expect. It is merely interesting to me that people have grown so used to generalizing from statements that they no longer even seem to notice the statements themselves...

[unitymusic]

I think most people are just trying to help you out by pointing out that your perspective and attitude will inevitably play into any serious project you will be a part of. You need a desire and an understanding, neither of which can be shallow; unless you want to go the pop route. Because a serious artist will see right through it and never even give you the chance. You can't really address your concerns without saying take a step back and re-evaluate some stuff, or at least be a little more clear about what you want. A home studio guy "networking" with professional engineers is silly; you want to network with musicians or find a studio to work in.

[notyetfamous]

Good God man! Leave LA already!!! Tired of being a tadpole in an ocean of engineers and studios, move to a small pond! Sell off a couple pieces from your $100K worth of gear and travel for a few months. Find this magic scene you are looking for and plant some new roots in a new city. Sounds like it won't be a big change starting over in a new place. Its not like you're going to loose any clients. There are engineers all over the "fly over states" that do quite well for themselves. Just try to leave you're LA jadedness in Cali. Your rants are exactly why I choose not to live in any of the big three (LA,Nash,NYC) and I'm quite happy making less and living with waaaaay less overhead. If your chops are good, you'll be fine!

Best of luck
~CS

[Thomas W. Bethe]

There have been a few studios in the Cleveland Ohio market that seemed to be doing very well. They had great equipment, knowledgeable engineers, good well designed studios and LOTS of clients. They stuck it out for a couple of years and then folded up their tents and went away. I have never been able to really understand why.

I guess what I am saying is that even if you were able to attract a lot of clients and you had/have a lot of top shelf equipment maybe you would still not "make it" for some reason.

Ever since I started into business I have watched other studios start up, seemly to do well and then close up and the principals move on. I would venture to say a new studio starts up every month or so and two studios close down. There are very few studios in the Cleveland market that have remained open for more than 5 years.

This is NOT a major music market even though we have the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame we don't have any world class studios and no major rock act currently calls Cleveland home. I am sure it is much different in LA where there are a lot of major studios and probably lots of talent calls LA home. I guess you are going to have to find your niche and fill the need of those who need your services or, as others have pointed out, close up and find somewhere to settle where you will be happy and where you will have a lot of clients that need your services.

The music industry as I knew it is GONE. The days of being able to make a living as an audio engineer are virtually GONE unless you are working for a large corporation or a Media outlet or a non profit organization. The days of doing things from your house and getting paid enough to make a decent living are really GONE. It is a different world and unless you can change your thinking and ways of working you are always going to be knocking your head against the wall and nothing is going to change. I hope you can find some peace. You are not alone and there are more and more people who have some of the same feelings you do but there is not much they or you can do about them.

Best of luck and let us know how things are going.

[I.R.Baboon]

Sometimes you need to make your own luck.

Maybe by just changing your location, your luck will change.

I've heard that even some engineers with amazing credits are struggling in LA.

As someone mentioned, you don't have anything to lose, so get out of LA. Better to be a small fish in a smaller pond.

Maybe you'll score a hit and can roll back into LA in a few years in style.

Just my humble 2c.

[wakestyle]

Just some random thoughts to the OP post. Craig's List adds? Tutor Adds?

It sounds obvious that you are a skilled yet small/intimate engineer/producer that could be consider very experienced... Can you also play instruments well enough to fill gaps in client needs?

Other than marketing your self as a 'against the grain' producer who isn't willing to take sh!t client attitude for nothing... I guess you've tried a lot of angles to try to attract artists to you, it sounds like you might be trying to actually find artist instead of letting them find your engineering skills.

In case some of the entirety of the projects you work on requirer addional production beyond your areas of expertise, are you able to rely on your old contacts/associates? Like songwriter/producer/masterer, that way you can offer a service that is maybe more attractive to a artist?

Since you don't have a real studio space do you know local studios well enough to rent and know their facilities?

[Beat Poet]

Originally Posted by dented42ford

6) I'm tired of "artsy" projects, since they never go anywhere or are burdened with a level of arrogance that no god in history has displayed.

7) I'm tired of "pop" projects, because everyone seems to want to sound like everybody else, funnily enough for the same arrogant reasons that the artsy people want to sound like no one else.

You should take a look at your attitude regarding those two points pal. Only those on the top rungs can pick and choose their projects - you have to take what you can get if you're desperate for money. With any work which you take on and compete successfully, those people will go away tell others about you.

[ryst]

Originally Posted by dented42ford

Though I have said many of the things I am about to say in a reply to another thread, I thought it bore repeating in a more concise manner.

I am an independent producer and recording engineer, trying to find work in the most crowded market for people like me in the world (LA). I have around $100-150k invested in gear, and around seven years experience doing this. Right now, I can't find anyone to work with, and I am at a loss as to how to proceed - I will be out of money very soon, and I have not even the glimmer of a prospect at the moment, beyond not-for-pay projects with friends. The following is a list of my observations, questions, and rants, which I am submitting to you because I would love to hear some other takes on it.

1) I work in a home studio. It is far from an ideal environment, though far better than most. I can't afford to move into a bigger house, and I certainly can't afford to rent space to work on my currently non-existent projects...

2) I have ~$100k in recording equipment and software. Most people posting on CL, which seems to be where people go when they don't have engineer friends, are either "real studios" or project studios with $1m+ invested. How am I supposed to differentiate myself in that miasma of me-too superiority?

3) I haven't finished a project in a year. I've started somewhere around 30, and got payed for maybe 10, each time less than what I was due. This is not due to any fault of my own, beyond choosing the wrong clients. The problem is, "choosing" isn't the right word - I have to take whatever I find, pretty much, since so few want to work anyway.

4) I'm tired of taking free projects, not only because I don't get paid, but because they are rarely worthwhile. I don't like wasting hundreds of hours of work on something that will never get finished - and, though it may be my job as a producer to make sure that doesn't happen, I often find the circumstances out of my control. How do you get people to actually, you know, treat you with respect?

5) I am tired of getting walked on - it seems no matter what I do, people in the industry look at me as a joke, whether that be the "what have you done lately" problem, or the "who have you worked with" problem, or the ego problem, or the laziness and disrespect (musicians) problem. None of this has to do with my ability or talent - how could it, these people have never bothered to find proof of either - but to do with forces outside my control.

6) I'm tired of "artsy" projects, since they never go anywhere or are burdened with a level of arrogance that no god in history has displayed.

7) I'm tired of "pop" projects, because everyone seems to want to sound like everybody else, funnily enough for the same arrogant reasons that the artsy people want to sound like no one else.

8) It is incredibly difficult to find people to "network" with in this town, in spite of the glut of engineers. I blame the "avoid, not offend" attitude - I can't tell you how sick I am of "I'll call you next week". How do you guys meet other engineers local to you?

9) I hate going to see live shows here, because I almost never see any worth the price of admission. People seem to have forgotten what a "performance" is in this town...

10) Every potential client I find that I actually feel is good, no matter my excitement at the prospect of working with them, no matter their opinion of me and my previous work, without fail chooses to go with another producer/engineer. This is either because they can get recorded for free, or because the other guy has "contacts" (rarely true, and I have those in any case), or because I don't seem "legit" enough (mostly due to the year of unfinished projects, I think). In other words, every time it seems I might actually work on something I care about, it doesn't happen, and no one tells me about it.

11) I moved here two years ago with very little in the way of [recording] contacts, outside of some I'd rather not mention, and 24 months later I find myself in much the same position. Any ideas on how to rectify this situation?

12) I didn't grow up here, and I'm not part of any "scene". It seems to me that most of the artists I've known find their producers and engineers out of their group(s) of friends, something I've found myself sorely lacking in as of late. No real question here, it is more an observation of how hard it is to move to a new city where you don't know anyone, especially a city as "cliquey" as LA.

13) As far as I can tell, people judge you here not based upon talent, attitude, experience, or anything "real", but upon some combination of other factors. These include how you dress, where you are originally from, whether you like to "party", how many indie, local, or scene bands you can name drop, the quality of your business card, how "chill" you are, and I can go on forever. This is more just an infuriating fact of living in LA than anything else, though I have seen the same thing in other cities as well (notably Austin).

14) I have, in general, a confrontational and critical attitude. I don't mean negative - I am very rarely actually negative - but instead that I tend to not try to hide behind the all-too-common attitudes of "let everybody be" and "you can't do that, because it isn't what is done". This attitude, which is based upon my core personality combined with years of studying philosophy, is getting me into more and more trouble as of late. Rather than thinking, "I should change my attitude", which I've tried many times (and gotten nowhere with - there is a reason [overly, just] nice guys finish poorly), I have taken a stance of letting it all hang proverbially out. This is a very unpopular thing, here in the city [culture] where offending is worse than harming by inaction, yet I see no alternative any more if I am to retain my sanity through these trying times. My point, with this, is to point out the hypocrisy of so many people's attitude: If you want to "just let [everyone] be themselves", yet someone has an attitude which annoys you (ie, goes against your own), the whole thing falls apart. I'm seeing this more and more in all facets of life - people, musicians in particular but everyone really, are being led not to think critically; and instead of relishing a new perspective on things, they point to authorities or "the way things are" or some other illogical nonsense to justify their position. With music, this is especially bad - how many artists have any of you worked with who have said something to the effect of "you just DON'T DO THAT!!!"

Wow...you're a handful!

I moved here almost 2 years ago as well. My wife and I moved out with 1 car, no jobs, and no place to live. Within 2 weeks, we both had full time jobs, a place to live and another car (paid in cash). I worked in the pro audio industry for a year and 4 months before quitting to be a full time producer/engineer/artist.

Since November I've been booked solid. And from your 100k estimate in equipment I can say I have far less than you.

So what does all this mean? I would say, first and foremost it's your attitude. You have to understand that people can pick up good vibes or bad vibes very quickly in any town. I'm from Ohio. I wasn't raised to be one of those "LA types" that everyone seems to hate. I have a lot of friends here but none of them are like that. That's because I filter out the bad, and attract the good.

I don't know how you approach people or how you present yourself but if your complaints above are your main issues with LA, then you need to look in the mirror.

My biggest complaint is not being able to go to the beach as much as I'd like and not being able to hang out with my wife as much as I'd like. That's what I don't understand about people who complain about "LA people". If it's not working for you, it's YOU! It's not anyone else. You gotta be stronger, more positive, and have a never say die attitude. NO EXCUSES. If you want to make a living in this town or anywhere else, you can. But it all starts with you.

[Sqye]

Originally Posted by crosscutred

Life is a lot easier if you don't feel contempt for everyone around you.

.



ain't that the frikkin' truth. i'll wager you probably live longer, too - not that this necessarily a plus.

...although, if life is easier, you probably want to live longer.

.

[Sqye]

Originally Posted by ryst

Wow...you're a handful!

I moved here almost 2 years ago as well. My wife and I moved out with 1 car, no jobs, and no place to live. Within 2 weeks, we both had full time jobs, a place to live and another car (paid in cash). I worked in the pro audio industry for a year and 4 months before quitting to be a full time producer/engineer/artist.

Since November I've been booked solid. And from your 100k estimate in equipment I can say I have far less than you.

So what does all this mean? I would say, first and foremost it's your attitude. You have to understand that people can pick up good vibes or bad vibes very quickly in any town. I'm from Ohio. I wasn't raised to be one of those "LA types" that everyone seems to hate. I have a lot of friends here but none of them are like that. That's because I filter out the bad, and attract the good.

I don't know how you approach people or how you present yourself but if your complaints above are your main issues with LA, then you need to look in the mirror.

My biggest complaint is not being able to go to the beach as much as I'd like and not being able to hang out with my wife as much as I'd like. That's what I don't understand about people who complain about "LA people". If it's not working for you, it's YOU! It's not anyone else. You gotta be stronger, more positive, and have a never say die attitude. NO EXCUSES. If you want to make a living in this town or anywhere else, you can. But it all starts with you.

.

Well said. Although, I think what "business" there is in music is not much.

If you are truly successful in this business, then you're DEFINITELY one in several hundreds of thousands
(and this is likely a generous %).


OP, no one's forcing you to be an engineer in the music "industry".

You're certainly welcome to do something else.

In fact, based on your attitude, you might seriously consider this.

One thing's for sure. Being miserable all day is not all it's cracked up to be.

So many musicians start with the rock star dream and end up cleaning toilets
and getting their teeth kicked in by boring, generic, narcissistic a-holes.

As Dave Chappelle said, Hollywood is an illusion. Almost no one is part of any "scene".

People are just trying the best they can to get work. And one day they're hot, the next they're cold.

If you're this lost and unhappy, I'd recommend trying something else.

Who knows, you might actually LIKE another type of work better. It's not impossible.

.

[joelpatterson]

Well, something happened to me yesterday that was a first.

Long around 11 in the morning, I got a call from a guy. "Are you available to record us tomorrow at 3?" He had a big requiem with his chorus and a hired orchestra. I jumped on it.

Then, at noon, another guy called. "Are you available tomorrow at 3?" His church was doing some massive production. Now I have a guy in town I hire to cover for me when things double up, but I need a little more warning than 24 hours.

My first thought? "These guys are conspiring to screw with my head!"