Login / Register
 
I'm sick of the Pro Tools hype. Why isn't Reaper getting as much love?
New Reply
Subscribe
#61
5th April 2012
Old 5th April 2012
  #61
Banned
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 174

sportyspice is offline
Tim, we have been down this road before. I don't use Reaper anymore for all the above reason. Our issues with the mix buss was something we tried to get resolved on the forums back around late vers.3. These are not my opinions but my real life experiences as a former Reaper user. Call them subjective if you like but whatever version your up to now, I'm sure your happy with it, since your still defending the brand.
#62
5th April 2012
Old 5th April 2012
  #62
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,281

-tc- is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by sportyspice View Post
Our issues with the mix buss was something we tried to get resolved on the forums back around late vers.3.
Do you have a link, or a username I could search for? I'm curious.

Quote:
These are not my opinions but my real life experiences as a former Reaper user. Call them subjective if you like but whatever version your up to now, I'm sure your happy with it, since your still defending the brand.
Only partly happy - it's not perfect by a long shot. You need to reevaluate the view of it that you seem to think I have ... I will only defend it in the face of claims which are demonstrably false - this does not include anyone's subjective opinion that it's too complex/nerdy/needs too much customisation/etc. Those views are perfectly fair enough.
#63
5th April 2012
Old 5th April 2012
  #63
Gear addict
 
mr. torture's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: NY
Posts: 469

mr. torture is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by djwayne View Post
Yes, I'm running X1d.
Is this pretty solid? I am still using 8.5 and have been scared to install X1
#64
5th April 2012
Old 5th April 2012
  #64
Banned
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 174

sportyspice is offline
Tim it goes something like this. The gain structure at the time was such that we were getting alot of distortion at the final mix. We summized that it was the mix buss because all the channels were w/in resonable volume/gain. At the time we went to the forum and got the basic it's your fault, you don't know what your doing, bla bla. So we thought, is there a way to lower the gain on the low freq channels. Back to the forums and asked the question an there didn't seem to be an answer as to was there a gain knob or not. So one of the people we deal with came up with the idea to put a ReaEQ in front of all other FX's in the FX box. Using the ReaEQ we could lower the gain per channel and thus reduce the level(s) going to the master fader. It's nice that reaper is getting better. But i'll Never go back. No way! Too much of this "prove to me you have a problem" nonsense. That Reaper forum mentality is just abusive. Edit: So in the end we never felt that we solved the Master Buss problem. We just found a workaround on our own.

Last edited by sportyspice; 5th April 2012 at 05:22 PM.. Reason: edit
#65
5th April 2012
Old 5th April 2012
  #65
Lives for gear
 
Mertmo's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,290

Mertmo is offline
I've downloaded Reaper and given it days of my time. 3 or 4 times in the past couple years. Just did it again last week in fact.

The party's over as soon as I remember that there's no simple, natively integrated area selection tool.

I simply can't work without it. Pro Tools is so smooth and elegant in that regard. That one workflow detail empowers my work in a monumental way.
When Reaper finally figures out that one tool, maybe I'll try it again. I don't want to learn deep macro programming and use my right click to pull it off.
I want it to just "happen".

Reaper has some cool details, but it still doesn't feel "ready" to me.

Pro Tools is incredibly slick. There are things about it that I don't like, but in the end I can't justify diving head first into the abyss that is learning another DAW.

But if they nail area selection.... I'm sure I'll waste another week of my time on it.
Who knows, maybe it will pay off someday and I could be free of the PT hardware madness.
But for now the madness is worth it because the software itself is amazing.
#66
5th April 2012
Old 5th April 2012
  #66
Gear nut
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Augusta Georgia
Posts: 130

chip mcdonald is offline
This looks like Vegas???


#67
5th April 2012
Old 5th April 2012
  #67
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,281

-tc- is offline
^ umm ... yes actually, once you look past the superficial layer. Walter theming is pretty cool, but it doesn't change the underlying design of the UI.
#68
5th April 2012
Old 5th April 2012
  #68
Gear nut
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Augusta Georgia
Posts: 130

chip mcdonald is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by sportyspice View Post
We summized that it was the mix buss because all the channels were w/in resonable volume/gain. At the time we went to the forum and got the basic it's your fault, you don't know what your doing, bla bla. So we thought, is there a way to lower the gain on the low freq channels.

They were at "reasonable" volume, but over driving the mix buss - but you wanted another way to lower the volume of certain channels by *not* lowering their faders?
#69
5th April 2012
Old 5th April 2012
  #69
Banned
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 174

sportyspice is offline
Chip , we needed to lower the gain going thru the tracks not the volume of the tracks.
#70
5th April 2012
Old 5th April 2012
  #70
Gear maniac
 
guid0's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 290

guid0 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by sportyspice View Post
So we thought, is there a way to lower the gain on the low freq channels. Back to the forums and asked the question an there didn't seem to be an answer as to was there a gain knob or not.
Did you try the Bassmanager JS plug that comes with reaper? Sounds like just the thing for your gain problem.
__________________
When in doubt, yodel.
#71
5th April 2012
Old 5th April 2012
  #71
Banned
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 174

sportyspice is offline
guid0 - Go back a page and read my other posts. It's all there for ya since I don't use Reaper anymore. Thanks for the good effort though!

Last edited by sportyspice; 5th April 2012 at 09:31 PM.. Reason: the good effort
#72
5th April 2012
Old 5th April 2012
  #72
Gear maniac
 
guid0's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 290

guid0 is offline
Touché.

To each his own and all that...

I have to say that I have hit similar "bail out" moments when trying out applications. Everybody has their own level of patience with any given piece of software and, past that point, nothing will get you to go back and try it again.
#73
6th April 2012
Old 6th April 2012
  #73
Banned
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 174

sportyspice is offline
Tim, we good here, got what ya need? Let me know big guy
#74
6th April 2012
Old 6th April 2012
  #74
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,281

-tc- is offline
Yeah whatever man - tbh, looks like it was just user error ... so *shrug*
#75
6th April 2012
Old 6th April 2012
  #75
Banned
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 174

sportyspice is offline
User Error, spoken like a true Reaper Man! Tim if nothing else your (cough)... consistent. Thats nothing to shrug about!

Last edited by sportyspice; 6th April 2012 at 10:06 PM.. Reason: extra juice
#76
7th April 2012
Old 7th April 2012
  #76
Gear nut
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Augusta Georgia
Posts: 130

chip mcdonald is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by sportyspice View Post
Chip , we needed to lower the gain going thru the tracks not the volume of the tracks.
Why?
#77
7th April 2012
Old 7th April 2012
  #77
Banned
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 174

sportyspice is offline
Chip , do a search on Gain Staging and I'm sure others can give you a much more detailed explination then I'm prepared to.
Deleted User
#78
7th April 2012
Old 7th April 2012
  #78
Deleted User
Guest
 
Posts: n/a

Quote:
Originally Posted by chip mcdonald View Post
This looks like Vegas???


Hi Chip, what theme is this? Cause me likes... Or does it contain a lot of personal mods?
Thanks in advance.
#79
7th April 2012
Old 7th April 2012
  #79
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,281

-tc- is offline
The top pic is the "Vox" mod of "Rado", and the second (of just the tcp), is the as yet unreleased "Imperial" from White Tie (one of the main reaper themers).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sportyspice View Post
others can give [sic] a much more detailed explination then I'm prepared to.
Certainly seems that way ...
#80
7th April 2012
Old 7th April 2012
  #80
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,013

Bassmankr is offline
Sportyspice, I'm not saying you didn't have a real problem or something may not be right in Reaper but I'm having trouble understanding your gain problem. I know you have moved on and it is a dead horse subject. You can overload gain at every stage in the chain. Mics can overload pres (need for a pad). Input level vs. Output level of the pre itself can overload. Any outboard next in the chain can overload. Converter input can easily be overloaded and converter output may have been set too high. At least in most interface software you can adjust this or insert a trim. Once signal gets in any DAW you can also have a trim plug on the first insert of a channel but you should have done proper gain staging at points before this as once you overload at any point in the chain, from that point onward you will have a problem. Any additional DAW channel inserted plugs, and auxes have to be gain staged also as not to overload before it gets to the channel fader. So all of this gain staging happens BEFORE the signal even reaches the fader on an individual DAW channel let alone it's mix buss. The thing is at all those points along the way you DON'T run it as hot as possible before distortion which is a common mistake people make. I'm just having a hard time understanding how if the signal was gain staged correctly at all the points before the DAW channel fader and the channel faders are at 0 or less you would have a mix buss overload in the DAW. I do understand that people run levels too hot in the DAW and do overcompress/hard limit leaving channels right at the point of overload and if you sum a few of them together then you could be past that point. I do understand if your computer was not setup right for audio or powerful enough for the amount of tracks and plugs you were using and you pushed it then there would be audio problems too. Maybe a link to the old thread or a better explanation would help. I'm a Cubase user so I'm not trying to come to Reaper's rescue but in my experimentations with Reaper I've never come across your problem. Given Reaper's free uncrippled download and super low price if you decide to buy it's still a no brainer to try out though.
#81
8th April 2012
Old 8th April 2012
  #81
Banned
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 174

sportyspice is offline
Wow, I'm not sure I want to get into all this again as some of the answers to your question were pointed out in previous post, but since you put alot of thought and effort into your question I'll say this. Yes it's a dead issue and it was in the late vers 3 or early vers 4. Skipping ahead of most of your question I'll say that aside from the obvious gain staging, which was hot but not "over" it seemed at the time with some of the material we were working with, that the extreme bottom end was driving the mix too hard. Now, understand that the faders were good, the enitial levels were assumed fine, it just seemed like the gian to the channels (faders) was to hot. The reason why we though this was because once we put the ReaEQ in front of everything else (comps FX ect..) Edit side note: Are you a Reaper user, meaning have used it for more then a free session check out? The reason I ask this question is because of the way Reaper is layed out. I don't want to have to go back an explain why we did what we did. If you used Reaper extensivley then what I say should make sense. OK, back to the answer, the gain level became under control. We could see that the signal going into the ReaEQ was shooting over. So we pulled down the trim in the EQ and brought the Gain (assumption) down. The issue real is now that I'm typing this, is that Reaper should have a Gain Trim nob. What we ended up doing in effect was creating our own Gain Trim plug with the ReaEQ. Now, thats the answer to the question, however at the time we could not get any help over at the Reaper forums. That was our biggest problem with the software. No customer service drove us Nuts! At the time we were finishing a project and were having issues with some of these types of problems. We ended up finding work around solutions until we finished and then dumped the program. Now whether or not the Mix Buss was the problem or just the way reaper routes audio is no longer our concern. Outside of a sperm sample I don't think I can give you anything more. It's the Moan Zone right? We moan here in the zone, it's not Juge Judy is it? How many time do I have to tell the same freaking story. I mean "given Reapers free uncrippled download and super low price".... oh wait your a Cubase user right? 'It's still a no brainer to try out though." Really is it a no brainer Bassmankr a no brainer. You go through all that trouble and then pump up the reaper brand, wow what a ... so yeah we don't like reaper over here.

Last edited by sportyspice; 8th April 2012 at 12:37 AM.. Reason: yeah
#82
8th April 2012
Old 8th April 2012
  #82
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,281

-tc- is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by sportyspice View Post
OK, back to the answer, the gain level became under control. We could see that the signal going into the ReaEQ was shooting over. So we pulled down the trim in the EQ and brought the Gain (assumption) down. The issue real is now that I'm typing this, is that Reaper should have a Gain Trim nob. What we ended up doing in effect was creating our own Gain Trim plug with the ReaEQ. Now, thats the answer to the question ...
So it was suboptimal gain staging. Interestingly, you write that you reduced the gain on tracks before compressors - is that correct? And doing so sorted out the issues you were having with sound, and you still decided to attribute this to the "mix bus"? That's a little confusing - don't understand the rationale tbh

Whether or not it "needs" an explicit gain trim knob is moot. There are about 4 other ways that you could have sorted out pre-fx gain staging at the item level, and in neglecting to do so you caused your own problems.
#83
8th April 2012
Old 8th April 2012
  #83
Lives for gear
 
Joined: May 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2,654

djwayne is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. torture View Post
Is this pretty solid? I am still using 8.5 and have been scared to install X1
X1d is rock solid for me. No problems to report at all.
#84
8th April 2012
Old 8th April 2012
  #84
Banned
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 174

sportyspice is offline
Tim, the trim Knob is an issue with Reaper and you know it. Now your just being pushy. You know exactly what I'm saying except your trying to draw me into a fight. Move on Tim, just let it go.

Last edited by sportyspice; 8th April 2012 at 11:22 AM.. Reason: it doesnt matter
Deleted User #43636
#85
8th April 2012
Old 8th April 2012
  #85
Deleted User #43636
Guest
 
Posts: n/a

I'm sick with the computer software hype. Why are'nt hardware audio recorders and mixers getting as much love ?
#86
8th April 2012
Old 8th April 2012
  #86
Lives for gear
 
Joined: May 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2,654

djwayne is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanddigger1 View Post
I'm sick with the computer software hype. Why are'nt hardware audio recorders and mixers getting as much love ?
I gotta DA-88 and a Mackie 24x8 board I'll sell ya. New they cost me about $7,000... make an offer.......need I say more ??
Deleted User #43636
#87
8th April 2012
Old 8th April 2012
  #87
Deleted User #43636
Guest
 
Posts: n/a

I was more thinking of Yamaha dm2000 + Alesis HD24, to stay digital, or Neve VR + Sony APR. Or even a Yamaha AW4416 (very good machine, editing was a dream, far better and musical worflow than any software.). Digital tape and Mackie mixer, no thanks.
Not all hardware is equal...
Anyway, it wasnt meant to be serious, although software sucks for real...
#88
8th April 2012
Old 8th April 2012
  #88
Lives for gear
 
Joined: May 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2,654

djwayne is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanddigger1 View Post
I was more thinking of Yamaha dm2000 + Alesis HD24, to stay digital, or Neve VR + Sony APR. Or even a Yamaha AW4416 (very good machine, editing was a dream, far better and musical worflow than any software.). Digital tape and Mackie mixer, no thanks.
Not all hardware is equal...
Anyway, it wasnt meant to be serious, although software sucks for real...
Hey come on, that DA-88 was product of the year !! The Mackie 24x8 buss mixer was way ahead of it 's time at the time.

My Sonar X1 Essentials software does more for about $99.00.
#89
8th April 2012
Old 8th April 2012
  #89
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,013

Bassmankr is offline
Sportyspice, thanks for the more detailed explanation. I agree with you that it would be nice if every DAW had a gain trim knob (they are copying an analog desk with everything else, they might as well do that too) so you don't have to put a trim plug as the first insert but if you have overloaded before that point in the signal chain you are still screwed. Your audio interface software input mixer should serve that function too with it's own trim or volume fader (you should have signal under control BEFORE the AD converter though and you won't need to touch converter or interface gain). Summing the overloaded signals on the DAW 2 buss just revealed the problem.

More of a problem in DAW's is metering which when you overloaded with low end / subsonic signal didn't show it. DAW metering is notorious for not being up to par and there are third party metering plugs that address some of that. Did you check what your AD converter and interface metering were doing? One good trick from analog desks is using high and low pass filtering on channels to not let either low end or high end signal build up from the sources that don't need to represent that extra info (you don't need much if any low end signal on a triangle, you don't need much if any high end signal on a kick drum). With certain program material even analog metering can "get fooled" so pushing for loudness is just a game of waking on thin ice.

The bigger problem is the culture of pushing it louder in the mix. I think many would have better mixes if they went easier on each step of gain staging and just turned up the volume knob on the device you are listening to mix on. Digital has given us far greater dynamic range and instead of using it we have mixes that vary .2 dB from 0 dB. When looking at the mix on the DAW you see a solid black bar (like looking at a side cut view of the state of Kansas instead of the Alps). Songs that are mixed that way are grating to listen to one after the other and have a greater chance of being just throw away music. I can see how the industry wants that though, cheap to make and disposable so the consumer keeps buying the next 19 year old singer's product. We have seen cases here of good mixers delivering a product with dynamics only to have it ruined at the label's mastering. So bottom line, if you had brought that source material into another DAW at the same levels you did with Reaper and Reaper was the only one overloading then that would have been a legit bug to bring to their attention.

I also agree with you as far as forums, they should be about problem solving and helping others by sharing your experiences and ideas about solutions. I've seen some pretty bad behavior on the DUC Pro Tools forum and the Cubendo forums too. A little less beating up people with questions/problems and a little more helping others is needed. Unfortunately you have to weed through the agenda driven and marketing posters also to complicate it further. It's a jungle out there LOL.
#90
8th April 2012
Old 8th April 2012
  #90
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,013

Bassmankr is offline
Sanddigger1, I'm running Hybrid so plenty of non-software love here! Large frame desk (too large, 8 feet wide LOL) and plenty of outboard. Using multiple Alesis HD24XR hard disk recorders for converters only in the studio (for remote no need to take a computer/DAW) with three RME 9652 PCI interfaces (72 channels I/O). Even with all that hardware the DAW still has a role as tape recorder and editor. Depending on a what type of project/budget (client who wants endless recalls/no money/just prefer ITB sound) DAW's have their place as a mixing platform. I see plenty of love in posts for the broad spectrum of choices around here ITB, OTB, and Hybrid.
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+ 
 
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
nativeaudio / High end
114
celticrogues / Music Computers
3
stereobot / Music Computers
8

Forum Jump

SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.