What with the hate between API and Radial?

[AllAboutTone]

So crazy I must add.

[Purple]

But Purple, A-Designs etc make competing products too, and they are part of it.

My wildly uneducated guess would be that there is some sort of fee to join this alliance that Radial chose not to pay. But again, just speculating.

[DSK]

To add to the speculation I think that API is not so fond of Radial taking their 500 rack concept one step further...

I think they don't like the idea that someone manages to bring a better rack to the market thus they are punishing that someone in a completely non-fair way.

[sgmw]

Yes, it could be that the omniport is the issue. Hard to be sure without the API side of the story.

[sportyspice]

Nothing but the he said she said bullshi8t. Oh fred were have you gone!

[DMFraser]

No hate. They declined our application. We would be happy to be a member. The workhorse is fully compatible with existing modules.

[Jim Williams]

How is API supposed to know you may have used non-approved modules in their rack unless you tell them?

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

How is API supposed to know you may have used non-approved modules in their rack unless you tell them?

Obviously!

It just means, you cannot go barking up API's tree, when your shit doesn't act right from non-approved wares. If your non-VPR module, loads down your 1608's power supply, or it flips the console out, and you call API and tell them, to investigate the problem, in that your console is wigging out [possibly from a non-approved module] and you are looking for warranty support and help, its not on them. The way I see it, as long as the module in question works fine in the 1608, there is no reason to worry about anything. But API cannot honor warranty work, or damage to your 1608, caused by using any non-approved modules.

[DMFraser]

Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell

Obviously!

It just means, you cannot go barking up API's tree, when your shit doesn't act right from non-approved wares. If your non-VPR module, loads down your 1608's power supply, or it flips the console out, and you call API and tell them, to investigate the problem, in that your console is wigging out [possibly from a non-approved module] and you are looking for warranty support and help, its not on them. The way I see it, as long as the module in question works fine in the 1608, there is no reason to worry about anything. But API cannot honor warranty work, or damage to your 1608, caused by using any non-approved modules.

At Radial ensure all our modules will work properly with API and Purple racks. We have posistors on the power input lines so that even if the module shorted internally, the current draw is limited to about 135mA on most modules.

This feature is not found on many of the other modules on the market.

We would be totally shocked that if an unmodified Radial module damaged any rack on the market. We have never had a single case of a Radial module damaging a non-Radial rack OR a non-Radial module damaging a Radial Workhorse rack.

While we cannot speak for the policies of others, at Radial we have gone through much effort to ensure compatibility and reliability and we have no issues with any non-Radial 500 modules being used in our 500 series racks..

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by DMFraser

While we cannot speak for the policies of others, at Radial we have gone through much effort to ensure compatibility and reliability and we have no issues with any non-Radial 500 modules being used in our 500 series racks..

Which begs the question again, why does API not approve Radial's products when they have applied and done more than most to ensure their designs are compatible and not a problem?

Something else is going on here.

[joelpatterson]

That surely, surely, surely won't stand the light of day...

[Duardo]

But Purple, A-Designs etc make competing products too, and they are part of it.

Purple does make a competing rack, but they are NOT part of the alliance. A-Designs does not make a competing rack...like Avedis and Empirical Labs they make a two-slot single-space rack, which is not something that API makes any more.

It's no secret that API will not approve anyone who does make a competing rack. The only other companies I can think of offhand who offer chasses that compete with APIT's rack or Lunchbox that come to mind (BAE and Tonelux) are not on the list either. I've had a pair of Purple preamps in my Lunchbox for years, and more recently moved over to a ten-space rack (which also now has a Radial EXTC in it) and have not had any issues at all.

[DMFraser]

While I am only here to answer technical questions, as far as I understand them, the issues are political, not technical. At Radial we know of no serious incompatibilities between the products of the various makers of 500 series gear.

The worst we have found is that some modules do not conform to the size specifications, mainly with screw heads that stick out too far. This makes them unable to be inserted properly between the guides we put in tray we include in the bottom of the Workhorse. Because of this we have made the tray easily removable.

To date no electrical incompatibilities have been reported between Radial racks and modules and those of other makers. Other than users of non-Radial racks are not being able to access the Omniport functionality of Radial Modules. However, the specifications for this are available on the Radial Engineering web site and we are seeing other makers start to adopt this function into their products.

[slackstallion]

Why is there some much blah blah blah about this type of thing? Let me get this straight, correct me if I'm wrong. API invents a successful piece of hardware. Radial rips off the idea, improves on it, cuts into API sales, and then wonders why API won't cooperate with them?

Hmm, seems pretty obvious to me.

Disclaimer: I own radial ABY, it's awesome.

[MonoBrow]

Originally Posted by slackstallion

Why is there some much blah blah blah about this type of thing? Let me get this straight, correct me if I'm wrong. API invents a successful piece of hardware. Radial rips off the idea, improves on it, cuts into API sales, and then wonders why API won't cooperate with them?

Hmm, seems pretty obvious to me.

Disclaimer: I own radial ABY, it's awesome.

Api made the 500 standart open.Nobody is ripping anybody off here....

[slackstallion]

edit

[ionian]

Originally Posted by slackstallion

yeah, for modules bonehead, not the actual enclosure housing the modules (whether it's a lunchbox or console). radial has copied the lunchbox, etc.

if you cant distinguish the difference, then there's nothing else to really say.

If you can't have a better attitude when talking to other people, then there really is nothing else to say to you.

God, I really wish Gearslutz would not allow anonymity. They really should force people to use their real names to cut these kinds of rude replies out once and for all.


Frank

[slackstallion]

i apologize for calling monbrow a bonehead. i think we can all distinguish a difference between making a module that works WITH an API product and making a unit that REPLACES an API product. To repeat myself, I own Radial ABY and it is awesome.


side note:

Frank, I checked your website hipster.com ... people can judge for themselves on the merits of your disgust for rude comments:

"It’s hosted by a thick-framed eyeglass wearing blipster (black hipster)"

"F$cking pretentious child molester-looking bastards"

"Even until this day, the parents of these hipster f$cks can’t admit to their own kidults that they are f$cking failures"

"all the bearded, sickly looking, pretentious mother f$cking c$cksucking artisanal gentrifiers will be watching closely"

[ionian]

Originally Posted by slackstallion

side note:

Frank, I checked your website hipster.com ... people can judge for themselves on the merits of your disgust for rude comments:

"It’s hosted by a thick-framed eyeglass wearing blipster (black hipster)"

"F$cking pretentious child molester-looking bastards"

"Even until this day, the parents of these hipster f$cks can’t admit to their own kidults that they are f$cking failures"

"all the bearded, sickly looking, pretentious mother f$cking c$cksucking artisanal gentrifiers will be watching closely"

Actually no, my website is the one above it - Frank Perri - Musician Composer Keyboardist Copyist Arranger.

The other website isn't mine but since I've a lifelong New Yorker and have watched the mess hipsters have made of Brooklyn, I post that website in my link to show my disgust for hipsters. I am not affiliated with that site.


Frank

[Duardo]

i apologize for calling monbrow a bonehead. i think we can all distinguish a difference between making a module that works WITH an API product and making a unit that REPLACES an API product.

In this case, though, there really is no difference. The modules both work with and can replace API products, and the racks both work with and can replace API products. If anything, API stands to lose more money in module sales than then do in rack/Lunchbox sales, since most people have one rack or Lunchbox but several modules.

Remember, up until recently there was no VPR Alliance, but there were a handful of people making both compatible modules and enclosures. API made the decision not to officially let manufacturers who manufacture racks join the alliance. That's really all there is to it...I've never heard of any module from a reputable (but "unauthorized") manufacturer damaging an API rack or Lunchbox, although that certainly doesn't mean that it hasn't happened.

[ionian]

Originally Posted by Duardo

Remember, up until recently there was no VPR Alliance, but there were a handful of people making both compatible modules and enclosures. API made the decision not to officially let manufacturers who manufacture racks join the alliance. That's really all there is to it...

Exactly. the VPR alliance is nothing more than just another political platform for a company masquerading as a seal of approval. In other words, they tout the VPR alliance as something that us as audio consumers can believe in but instead it's just another way to push other companies around. It's either, you play our game or you don't get the seal of approval.

The VPR Alliance is nothing more than a joke.

Thankfully due to the proliferation of great sounding 500 series modules AND racks/power supplies by other manufacturers, I don't have a need for any API gear at all in my studio. And since I'm not a fan of how they do business, there will be no API gear for the foreseeable future at all at my place - there's plenty of great sounding pres, eqs and comps out there from everyone else for me to pick and choose from.

The Gearslutz community is the real VPR alliance to me. I trust my fellow gearslutz, and at times the manufacturers themselves, a lot more to let me know what modules or racks they've had problems with far more than I trust API.

Regards,
Frank

[TRA]

Kind of ironic...

I'm looking to get a Radial Workhorse and a couple of API modules. API playing political games just cost them a sale on modules. I'm going to pass on API and fill my Workhorse with other stuff.

Seems like a ridiculous political stance on the part of API.

[eqverb]

Off Topic but ...

Originally Posted by ionian

.... since I've a lifelong New Yorker and have watched the mess hipsters have made of Brooklyn, I post that website in my link to show my disgust for hipsters. I am not affiliated with that site.
Frank

COSIGN and +1000 !!!!!

Don't get me wrong now I do like Whole Foods, but as a "True" New Yorker and a Brooklyn Boy I couldn't agree with you more. That blog is hilarious.

[RFZ DUDE]

Originally Posted by ionian

The other website isn't mine but since I've a lifelong New Yorker and have watched the mess hipsters have made of Brooklyn, I post that website in my link to show my disgust for hipsters. I am not affiliated with that site.


Frank

you got it man, now that they must fear you all those w@nkers come over here to Berlin, as it looks.

[mirrorboy]

Interesting thread:

For API to deny Radial (assuming there's no reason we haven't heard about yet) wouldn't that violate US Anti-Trust laws? It seems very counter-productive to the healthy competition that our economy thrives on.

Something doesn't seem right here...

Scott

[Duardo]

For API to deny Radial (assuming there's no reason we haven't heard about yet) wouldn't that violate US Anti-Trust laws? It seems very counter-productive to the healthy competition that our economy thrives on.

No...why would it? It doesn't restrict anyone from using the two companies' products together. For years people were using non-API modules in their racks, and there was always the caveat that if there was a problem it voided the warranty. API decided to officially sanction modules and formed the VPR Alliance a few years back so that people could use other modules without voiding the warranty, but one of the conditions of joining the alliance was that you would not manufacture a competing rack. So there are a few companies (BAE and Purple come to mind, in addition to Radial) that do manufacture modules that are not part of the VPR Alliance. You can still use them in your API rack, just like people have been doing for years. You just won't have any warranty protection if something goes wrong (and I've never heard of that ever being an issue...not that it couldn't be, but it's certainly not a widespread problem).

[Jim Williams]

To sum it up:

1. The alliance is API's "good ol' boy's" club, behave and we will "let you in" if you don't manufacture a competeing product.

2. Radial makes a fine rack. No reason why you shouldn't consider using one.

Buy the Radial rack and mount your API modules in it. If one breaks, send it in to API for repairs but tell API you use an API powered rack.

Sometimes companies are too stupid for their own good.

[Bookerv12]

Originally Posted by TRA

Kind of ironic...

I'm looking to get a Radial Workhorse and a couple of API modules. API playing political games just cost them a sale on modules. I'm going to pass on API and fill my Workhorse with other stuff.

Seems like a ridiculous political stance on the part of API.

I just got really sick of having to drive down there to API and have stuff fixed.
I bring a lot of my friends' broken stuff there too....So it's not just me.
I had another EQ crap out this week.
The Radial rack is awesome, and they actually have some pretty great modules.

[pan60]

Originally Posted by sgmw

I bought a 500 Series Radial X-Amp a couple of days ago and was quite excited about putting in my API 1608.

I then get home and find out that API will void the warranty if any slot has a non-VPR compliant module it .

Radial write on their website:
"Although Radial has requested to become a VPR member, since we produce competitive 500 series power racks, our request was denied. And even though Radial is not a member of the VPR Alliance, we believe that the intention is good and valuable from a sales & marketing perspective."

Surely this defeats the purpose of having a standard? Fortunately I was able to return the X-Amp but what a PITA.

I do not know what is on the Radial web site nor do I care. The stuff I have seen I have no interest in.
I spoke with the man Peter himself before anything was ready and ask him if would entertain the ideal and he told me absolutely not! They did not need API's approval, I tried to explain what the VPR Alliance was about, but it was going no where so we moved on.
He also passed around emails trying to get others to form their own format and alliance, which I am not for. If you want to do your own thing that fine, but do not call it 500 format if you do.

Originally Posted by DMFraser

No hate. They declined our application. We would be happy to be a member. The workhorse is fully compatible with existing modules.

just how many moduals did you send them, and why did they fail?

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

To sum it up:

1. The alliance is API's "good ol' boy's" club, behave and we will "let you in" if you don't manufacture a competeing product.

BULL SHlT

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

2. Radial makes a fine rack. No reason why you shouldn't consider using one.

Matter of opinion. I think OSA also made an okay entry level rack when it was not corrupted with issues.

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Buy the Radial rack and mount your API modules in it. If one breaks, send it in to API for repairs but tell API you use an API powered rack.

Sometimes companies are too stupid for their own good.

I would never condone dishonesty as a practice. Seems to show a measure of one's poor moral bearing to me.
Great ethics.