At what point does one leave a guitar tone the way it is?

[MechanEvil]

At what point does one leave a guitar tone the way it is? By this, I mean the tone that is input into our converters. Tweaking can take days and could go on forever and I'm sure most AEs feel that enough is enough when it starts to mess with their schedules. But there must be more to it.

Tone is such a subjective thing. I work with a high gain a lot and have been advised by a lot of people to lower it for recording, because it'll sound better. At the same time, I've often wondered if there are more elegant approaches, perhaps better miking, using speaker simulators, altering preamp settings, etc. Maybe even 100-foot cable runs.

I've spent the better part of the last three days working on guitar tones. Just fiddling with knobs over and over and over. It's back-breaking work, literally, since you have to peer over these digital and analog FX (in my case). I thought I was done last night. But this morning I was thinking again, I am really done?

There's a Part B to this question. Once the "best possible" (it's an entirely subjective issue) tone has been arrived at, what can be done after putting it down. I hear a lot of people compress guitar tracks to make them smoother. Maybe some EQing to get rid of any static noise or hiss. Delay, reverb. What else could one do to improve the sound that one finally "settles" on for the big demo? :P

- Jimmy Rage/Reggae Mangle

[Tennis]

Electric guitars can be that way. If you're working in your own studio, the best thing is to take notes on what you're doing today (preamp gain, mic, mic position, speaker, guitar, position in room, etc), record the song..blah blah blah, and then go back and add notes to what you would want to improve for the next song. Also, note what songs were recorded with what set up and what eq/compression was used in the mix, so if you had to, you can replicate that sound pretty closely. And if you need to improve it, you don't start from scratch, you instead start with something that has already taken time to get to where it is. This way you are always building up your tone, not just going from scratch. This is assuming that you keep your guitar and amp that you used.

Over time you'll have a library of tones, some that are amazing, and you can replicate anytime you want, and even alter with different guitars.

[Ward Pike]

Never try to "create" sound using studio tool such as multiple mics, one out of phase etc, to scoop out a tone or use copious amounts of compression and EQ to please the listener on one set of speakers.

Start with a great sounding amp. A great guitar. A great tone that everyone is happy with. Then try two microphones. A Sennheiser 421 aimed just off the center of one louspeaker, 1' off and a Royer 121 on another speaker, same position.

If that combination doesn't accurately capture and represent the tone, then abandon the ship.

As for gain, yes, back it off just a bit and it sounds bigger!

[MechanEvil]

@Tennis: I take a lot of photographs! I find it works a lot better with the analog part of my rig in particular, easier than writing 1-3/4 and stuff like that. Thanks for the idea about using different guitars, I could really get into that.

@Ward_Pike: Got it, the reference tone has to be accurate to what is in our minds before we try to capture it. Thanks.

- Jimmy Rage

[verve92]

Originally Posted by Ward Pike

Never try to "create" sound using studio tool such as multiple mics, one out of phase etc, to scoop out a tone or use copious amounts of compression and EQ to please the listener on one set of speakers.

Start with a great sounding amp. A great guitar. A great tone that everyone is happy with. Then try two microphones. A Sennheiser 421 aimed just off the center of one louspeaker, 1' off and a Royer 121 on another speaker, same position.

If that combination doesn't accurately capture and represent the tone, then abandon the ship.

As for gain, yes, back it off just a bit and it sounds bigger!

I've been using a Fender tube amp and an SM57 for years.
You just have to find the sweet spot and pulling the mic further away makes some ambient tones depending on the room.

[kennybro]

Originally Posted by Ward Pike

Never try to "create" sound using studio tool such as multiple mics, one out of phase etc, to scoop out a tone or use copious amounts of compression and EQ to please the listener on one set of speakers.

Start with a great sounding amp. A great guitar. A great tone that everyone is happy with. Then try two microphones. A Sennheiser 421 aimed just off the center of one louspeaker, 1' off and a Royer 121 on another speaker, same position.

If that combination doesn't accurately capture and represent the tone, then abandon the ship.

As for gain, yes, back it off just a bit and it sounds bigger!

Bottom line

[marcreeves]

Ribbon or dynamic mic and a great tube amp with a great guitar. It sounds like you are overcomplicating things and fighting your tone. As soon as you stop doing that you'll realise it's actually very simple.

Sent from my GT-S5570 using Gearslutz.com

[MechanEvil]

Becoming Devil (Please Support this Band & It's Upcoming Demo) by Arvind Jayaram on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

This is a blueprint track I've done for one of the tracks on my album. Unfortunately, I don't have a tube amp, using a hybrid analog/digital pedalboard for tone generation. I haven't miked my cab yet though and think it might give me the punch you're all hinting could be achieved by using one.

If you'd be kind enough to hear the guitar and make suggestions on what could be done, I'd be grateful. You could check out the tone at 1.55 minutes or 6.20 minutes and the solo over the badly done acoustic guitar (blueprint :P) right at the start of the track, you should be able to get a good idea of the tone I've been using so far.

There's no bass guitar on the track, I will be laying down the drums myself using and e-kit and Superior Drummer 2.0. After that, I will lay down the guitars again, hoping to iron out any issues before that, would like to have a consistent sound throughout my demo.

If you catch any of the vocals in there, that's what I was using my SM58 for! XP

Cheers!

- Jimmy Rage

[rhythmtech]

to me tone comes from the source on guitars. they are the one instrument i do as little as possible to after the fact. good guitar, good amp, good player and just a little processing to help them sit right in the mix

[carlheinz]

Your asking a very general question without stating what style of music you are working with or what gear you are using however that could be good because you might find something that works well for YOU.

On the other hand some people ask"How do I get this one guitar tone on this song or this specific recording?"

It all starts with you in the room with the amp playing the parts and listening and getting that sounding the way you want first.The rest should be fairly simple.Do not lower your gain cuz"they say" it will sound better.Get what you like first.If it sounds bad in the room it's a good bet it will sound bad miced up most of the time.

If you have a clear idea or a clear example of the type of guitar sounds you want that helps too.The rest is...and I hate saying this...In your hands and trial and error.
it also helps to see how others aproach this but there is no rule or one way of getting great tone.There are many opinions on this and is fairly endless if you want it to be.Most pro engineers have a formula they stick to or start with first but 9 times out of ten it's the guy playing guitar and his knowlege of getting his/her gear to the desired place.Once that is acheived you'll want to pick out a mic.Some use as many as 4 or more mics close up to one cab then they get either a blend and record that blend in mono to 1 track via a consoles buss... or if they cant commit(and many can't),They record all the mics and blend later.I do not endorse the latter.Iv'e had good"MODERN" results with 3 mics and this isn't new.It's a formula thats been copied many times...A Sennheiser 421 combined with a Shure sm-57(one close up to each speaker and not too close to the center) and something 6-10 feet away like a 414 or a decent .If you have lots of channels..try adding an Electrovoice RE-20 and or a Royer R-121.The one mic on the cab could work fine too.One 57/421/409/m-160/u87/147.Iv'e used kick drum mics..D-112/ev-ATM 24.Again...no one way and no rules.It starts with the direction of the music and the player.

[uncle duncan]

Originally Posted by MechanEvil

...There's no bass guitar on the track, I will be laying down the drums myself using and e-kit and Superior Drummer 2.0. After that, I will lay down the guitars again, hoping to iron out any issues before that, would like to have a consistent sound throughout my demo. ...

As soon as you add the bass and drums, the context of the guitar tone is going to change. You'll probably have to thin it out a bit, so add the bass, drums and whatever else is going to be in the final mix, and then sculpt your guitar tone to fit into the mix (using amp choice and settings, guitar choice and settings, and mic choice and placement) and record it. An analogy: you can't paint the house if it isn't even built yet.

If your only option for a guitar amp sound is your digital pedal board, good luck with that. They always sound small and cheesy to me, although the "buzzing bumblebee" setting seems to work well in the right context.

[Isterpuck]

At this point:

[kafka]

A lot of times the problem with guitar 'tone' is actually the arrangement. Is the part just too dense? Is the guitar player playing the fundamental of a chord on 3 separate strings? Could a different voicing be more effective? Should they change their voicing throughout the piece? How well does it fit with the bass? I'm always impressed on the old Who recordings how much of the 'guitar' part is actually John Entwistle. A lot of times, the attack on a guitar is actually a snare hit, or a cymbal splash. A good arrangement takes this into account.

[AllAboutTone]

I worry about tone later, after the guitar tracks are done, it's called reamp.

[Beat Poet]

I guess it depends how close you want to get to "that" sound. By that I mean, by all means you want to reach the sound you're looking for, but once you reach that plateau, you start hankering for something better - obviously everyone should be constantly searching and tweaking like that. So what I'm saying is, rather than constantly tweaking the sound for just one song, get that song done and move onto the next. Also, guitar sounds have a habit of "changing" from day to day, especially if you've miked an amp!

[robertshaw]

Originally Posted by Ward Pike

a Royer 121 on another speaker, same position.

If that combination doesn't accurately capture and represent the tone, then abandon the ship.

royer are not accurate

[MechanEvil]

Interesting thoughts, I'm glad there are so many viewpoints on the "ideal" setting for a guitar tone. On my end, I was tossing and turning as I tweaked my tone, only to realise, "Hey, when recorded, this thing doesn't sound at all like it does through the amp".

I guess it's a very subjective area: like the last comment about someone saying a Royer isnt accurate, while others would disagree. Capturing a sound accurately is a science in itself.

And suppose we didn't want to capture it accurately, we wanted to capture it sounding good? Subjective..

One common point I could find is that most people like to mike their amp. I think I'm going to do that too. It's an open back, so some interesting positioning possibilities...

@uncleduncan: Haha, the 50 kg buzzing bumblebee is all I have in my arsenal, guess my only hope is the record company will hear my demo and think, "Gee, I wonder how this guy sounds through a JCM Stack!" :P

- Jimmy Rage