Why the Inexcusable Ignorance About the Pop Music of the Past ?

[Happy Musicfan]

With the threads questioning why one would shun the modern mainstream pop music scene, let's consider turning the question around.

The people who are wise to the superior artistry, superior musicianship and superior songwriting skill in pop music's past are very well aware of the pop music of the present as they are continually exposed to it (even when they are trying to avoid it). However, the majority of those who see nothing wrong or inferior about the current pop music scene, are often catastrophically ignorant about what exactly makes the pop music of the past (especially from 1965-1985) superior to the lyrically stupid, shallow & disposable, auto-tuned trash-loops of today.


Here is just some of what's missing in today's modern pop music :

1) Serious musical ART
2) Beautiful, sophisticated, *expansive* melodic themes
3) Poetic lyrics (which are often heavy, well articulated & sophisticated)
4) Extensive harmonic knowledge and chord pattern craftsmanship
5) Exhibition of *natural* (minimally processed), individualistic vocal skill and vocal artistry
6) Exhibition of refined, organic or raw skill on a musical *instrument*
7) Dynamics
8) Originality



Let's start off on January 1, 1965 and hear what was going on back then.


The Righteous Brothers - You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' ((HD/HQ)) 1965 - YouTube



Petula Clark - Downtown. (2nd February 1965) - YouTube



Beatles - Ticket To Ride (1965) from "HELP!" - YouTube

[Happy Musicfan]

The Beatles Help - YouTube



Barry McGuire - Eve Of Destruction 1965 - lyrics - YouTube



The Beatles-Yesterday Lyrics - YouTube

[Lute]

MTV is what happened. Kids are impressionable so showing what people look like is very important to them. In the old days, you didn't see the Beatles every 5 minutes on TV, you heard them on the radio and maybe saw them if your parents let you go to a gig. Similarly with the Stones, Kinks, etc. Even up to Pink Floyd this was the case. Ironically, Music TeleVision doesn't even show music vids anymore but there are plenty of channels that do. Kids equate good looking people as good musicians unless they've been taught otherwise by having music lessons and learning the trade. I went out with a girl a few years back who's almost entire CD collection was based on what the band looked like

Disposable Teens - Disposable music. It's very much off the shelf stuff these days, plastic people with their plastic music. Just what the industry ordered. There's some good stuff out there though, there's definitely room for optimism.

We shall overcometh

[adrianww]

No. You really need to go back a lot further than 1965 to get proper examples of those attributes that you've listed. Somewhere around the latter half of the 18th century or the first half of the 19th would be a good start.

Seriously though...I can get where you're coming from, but pop music has always been a mixed bag and a lot of it was crap regardless of whichever era you're talking about. Is the current crop worse than average? Maybe. But it's not all that high an average to shoot for if we're honest about it and allow for all the crap stuff that was popular but hasn't stood the test of time.

[Happy Musicfan]

Originally Posted by adrianww

No. You really need to go back a lot further than 1965 to get proper examples of those attributes that you've listed. Somewhere around the latter half of the 18th century or the first half of the 19th would be a good start..

No. Unless you give me 18th & 19th century examples of lyrically-based, 3 minute songs, with verses, bridges and choruses, played under the influence of the *previously born genre known as rock and roll* and it's uniquely championed instruments : drums, bass, guitar, vocals, background vocals, etc. beep-beep !

Is the current crop worse than average? Maybe.

The bag is now predominantly a mixture of trash with very little of the above 8 characteristics present. Previously (especially pre-1985, 1985 being the year when I think the decline really started), the 8 aforementioned characteristics were more valued and respected - by the 'suits' *and* the consumers.

[Happy Musicfan]

Originally Posted by Lute

MTV is what happened. Kids are impressionable so showing what people look like is very important to them. In the old days, you didn't see the Beatles every 5 minutes on TV, you heard them on the radio and maybe saw them if your parents let you go to a gig. Similarly with the Stones, Kinks, etc. Even up to Pink Floyd this was the case. Ironically, Music TeleVision doesn't even show music vids anymore but there are plenty of channels that do. Kids equate good looking people as good musicians unless they've been taught otherwise by having music lessons and learning the trade. I went out with a girl a few years back who's almost entire CD collection was based on what the band looked like

Disposable Teens - Disposable music. It's very much off the shelf stuff these days, plastic people with their plastic music. Just what the industry ordered. There's some good stuff out there though, there's definitely room for optimism.

We shall overcometh

Yes, over-reliance on visuals do indeed distract from the sole focus on musical artistry !

But I'm not going to make a sweepingly cynical statement about the intellectual level of teens these days, because that would lead me to say, ''there's no appetite at all for sophisticated art music'' and that would imply less room for optimism.

[Kaoz]

While I agree with what you're getting at - it really is a pointless argument to make.

There has always been bad music, there always will be, and trying to change people's taste in music is an utter waste of time.

If this thread is about reminiscing about great older pop music then I applaud you. But if this thread is just about "this is better than that", I'll leave you to it.

[Happy Musicfan]

Originally Posted by Kaoz

While I agree with what you're getting at - it really is a pointless argument to make.

There has always been bad music, there always will be, and trying to change people's taste in music is an utter waste of time.

If this thread is about reminiscing about great older pop music then I applaud you. But if this thread is just about "this is better than that", I'll leave you to it.

It's not an argument. It's self-evident. The examples speak for themselves.

WOWZA : Music today is louder, more aggressive, has more attitude, more intricate rhythms and grooves, better special FX, cooler and more exciting imagery, it is more instantaneously stimulating, has incredibly innovative & fabulously futuristic sonic textures, moves at a much faster pace, incorporates more stylistically expansive eclectic influences and many other things which accordingly make the music of yesteryear woefully inferior.

But I'm bringing up the traditional, OLD-school, musical skills & standards which were clearly more prevalent, understood, developed and respected than they are now.

Just imagine marrying more of the aforementioned 8 characteristics with the WOWZA. And don't say it can't be done.

[joelpatterson]

Hard to pin down exactly why we've come to such a dreadful pass... but cynical me, I point to a culture of "convenience" and how it's taken such a stranglehold over everyone's lives?

When the goal is "convenience," this tends to shuffle other things aside-- it tends to squeeze out more involved things, like contemplation and involvement and building up things one block at a time...

I dunno. I'm kinda synesthesiastic when I try to understand all this stuff... certain innocent moments take on bellweathery proportions... like, the kid at the Apple store who was showing me the latest Final Cut Pro, he got all obsessed with how his "three finger spread" was not jiggling the window like he thought it would-- really devoted a bit of time in trying to make it work for him-- and I thought, "there's something screwy when your concern is focused on the trivial details of the process in place of the actual function of accomplishing something."

"Convenience" is supposed to make your life flow easier... instead, it's become a virtue and goal all of its own, divorced from anything actually happening.

[Happy Musicfan]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Hard to pin down exactly why we've come to such a dreadful pass... but cynical me, I point to a culture of "convenience" and how it's taken such a stranglehold over everyone's lives?

When the goal is "convenience," this tends to shuffle other things aside-- it tends to squeeze out more involved things, like contemplation and involvement and building up things one block at a time...

I dunno. I'm kinda synesthesiastic when I try to understand all this stuff... certain innocent moments take on bellweathery proportions... like, the kid at the Apple store who was showing me the latest Final Cut Pro, he got all obsessed with how his "three finger spread" was not jiggling the window like he thought it would-- really devoted a bit of time in trying to make it work for him-- and I thought, "there's something screwy when your concern is focused on the trivial details of the process in place of the actual function of accomplishing something."

"Convenience" is supposed to make your life flow easier... instead, it's become a virtue and goal all of its own, divorced from anything actually happening.

That's a perfect modern example of a sociological manifestation which combines the generational discrepancy along with tendencies towards alienation. It's almost a cultural clash, lest we don't maximize adaptational harmony and blind progressivity for it's own sake.

Quicker. Quicker. Red, yellow, green, go !

OK, the pop music today is more like the processed ding-dong at the 'convenience' store. It's impeccably manufactured, and gobbled down swiftly. Digestive skill determined by repetitive conditioned response.

Next sensory stimulant. Different. Go !

It's a technologically induced obsession with multi-tasking, leading to doing MORE things, but each of them at a more shallow level.

Beep !

Ultimately, the old-school foundations become obsolete, or do they ? But are they really disposable ? What happens if we're actually throwing our mind in the garbage in pursuit of the futuritic quest for keeping up with the seemingly mandatory tech-trend ? What if the addiction to hi-tech stimulation is taking us away from necessary grounding ? Can we really fly just because we're so darn modern and pathetically immersed in the mayhem of products ?

[joelpatterson]

In this progression you outline, "illusion" is steadily supplanting "actual, true engagement."

If the illus-ee (finally! a made up word that's almost impossible to get!) doesn't sense a disturbance in his force, and keeps plunging headlong down this alleyway-- then we've come to a frightening truth about human nature.

[Happy Musicfan]

Yet maybe the outcome is the virtually guaranteed bliss the consumers so sheepishly want to believe in. Techno-Social placebo !

It really depends on the dice roll and the dice roll modifiers.

[joelpatterson]

Step right up! Free dice, everybody!

[Happy Musicfan]

LOL !

[adrianww]

Originally Posted by Happy Musicfan

No. Unless you give me 18th & 19th century examples of lyrically-based, 3 minute songs, with verses, bridges and choruses, played under the influence of the *previously born genre known as rock and roll* and it's uniquely championed instruments : drums, bass, guitar, vocals, background vocals, etc. beep-beep !

Good Lord, why on Earth would someone want to listen to something like that? 3 minutes of banal verses, predictable bridges and tedious choruses, all played under the influence of that dreadful "rock and roll" thing that everyone seems to be so obsessed about? Sounds like it would all be absolutely ghastly stuff and bear about as much relationship to good music as canaries do to cheese? I mean, let's face it, none of them are proper musicians when it comes down to it, are they - just a bunch of drugged-up plinkers, thumpers, thrashers and slashers mostly?

No, no, put the gun down, I'm only kidding. Well, mostly anyway - I have known people out there, some of them much more musically literate and talented than I am, who would agree with 90-odd per cent of the above pseudo-comical rant. And would apply it as readily to The Beatles as to Lady Gaga.

Perhaps I was focussing more on attributes 1, 2, 4, 7 and 8 from your list. Although I've probably still got an option on 3 and 6, but I'm not personally a fan of opera lyrics/libretti and, while I'm sure that 6 applied in a number of cases, we don't have any recordings to prove it. (Herr Mozart anyone?)

Originally Posted by Happy Musicfan

The bag is now predominantly a mixture of trash with very little of the above 8 characteristics present. Previously (especially pre-1985, 1985 being the year when I think the decline really started), the 8 aforementioned characteristics were more valued and respected - by the 'suits' *and* the consumers.

I guess the only minor point that I was really trying to make is that the pop music bag has always contained its share of trash. It might currently contain more than it did before, but it's very hard to judge accurately since we don't yet have the benefit of a few decades of hindsight to see what (if anything) stands the test of time from the current crop.

Added to that, I think that the Billboard Top 100 (or any chart listing) is probably becoming an increasingly bad way to judge it anyway. Go back thirty or forty years and there's a fair chance that the Billboard chart was pretty representative of what many people were listening to. Apart from anyone who was prepared to attend local live music events, the stuff that was heard on the radio or that was available to buy from the record stores was pretty much the only stuff that you could get. And that was the stuff on the chart.

Nowadays, as well as the local live scene, there are many other ways for people to find and listen to new music - lots of ways for people to get stuff that's "off-chart" so to speak, so I'm not sure that the chart system is as representative of the general state of popular music as it used to be.

For example, I went along to a friend's birthday party the other week and heard a local band called We Steal Flyers. It's acoustic folk/guitar singer-songwriter stuff and, although I'd heard of them before, I'd never heard them play. I was very impressed and bought their current album/EP from them - recorded in a local studio and pressed up on CD with no involvement from the major labels or anything like that. And, I'm sad to say, probably little chance of making it into the mainstream charts (which is a pity because I think it should - these guys are pretty good and far better than a whole lot of chart stuff that I do hear).

Anyway, the point is that there's good music out there, but "mainstream pop" isn't necessarily the right place to find it now. Leastways, I think that's the point I'm trying to get to. Or something like that.

[Happy Musicfan]

Originally Posted by adrianww

Anyway, the point is that there's good music out there, but "mainstream pop" isn't necessarily the right place to find it now.

I'm with much of what you say. Good points.


The formal mainstream has been constricted, while the sidestream, non-stream and anti-streams are ever-expanding universes. Yippee ! But are the masses actually outside of the mainstream, and what does that mean for cultural enlightenment and art ?

[sleepingbag]

Yeah I listen to mostly new music but you know what, I listen to a lot of older stuff too, there's plenty of it that I love, and I often have periods of listening to mostly older bands. You really need to stop thinking that the pop music of the past has disappeared and been replaced by the Black Eyed Peas. As long as there are Baby Boomers there will continue to be huge amounts of 'importance' placed on older pop music. So sleep easy.

And besides, does 'mainstream' music include stuff like Wilco and Bon Iver? Stuff that gets sold at Starbucks counters and that dominates late nite TV? Because even though it's harder for that stuff to actually chart these days it's still very much out there and very popular and does really all of the things that you outline in your Bullet Points of Forgotten Musical Techniques.

But then again most Kanye songs hit those points too, so whatever, I guess we're just not going to see eye to eye on this.

lol, I replied to this thread

[MarvinDog]

Originally Posted by Happy Musicfan

... However, the majority of those who see nothing wrong or inferior about the current pop music scene, are often catastrophically ignorant about what exactly makes the pop music of the past (especially from 1965-1985) superior to the lyrically stupid, shallow & disposable, auto-tuned trash-loops of today...

Hmm, let's look at the top 3 Billboard songs from each of these years 65-85, eh?

1965 -
Wooly Bully - Sam the Sham and the Pharaohs
I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) - Four Tops
(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction - The Rolling Stones

1966
Ballad of the Green Berets - Sgt. Barry Sadler
Cherish - The Association
(You're My) Soul and Inspiration - The Righteous Brothers

1967
To Sir, with Love - Lulu
The Letter - The Box Tops
Ode to Billie Joe - Bobbie Gentry

1968
Hey Jude - The Beatles
Love is Blue - Paul Mauriat
Honey - Bobby Goldsboro

1969
Sugar, Sugar - The Archies
Aquarius/Let the Sunshine In - The 5th Dimension
I Can't Get Next to You - The Temptations

1970
Bridge over Troubled Water - Simon & Garfunkel
(They Long to Be) Close to You - The Carpenters
American Woman - The Guess Who

1971
Joy to the World - Three Dog Night
Maggie May - Rod Stewart
It's Too Late - Carole King

1972
The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face - Roberta Flack
Alone Again (Naturally) - Gilbert O'Sullivan
American Pie - Don McLean

1973
Tie a Yellow Ribbon Round the Ole Oak Tree - Tony Orlando and Dawn
Bad, Bad Leroy Brown - Jim Croce
Killing Me Softly with His Song - Roberta Flack

1974
The Way We Were - Barbra Streisand
Seasons in the Sun - Terry Jacks
Love's Theme - Love Unlimited Orchestra

1975
Love Will Keep Us Together - Captain & Tennille
Rhinestone Cowboy - Glen Campbell
Philadelphia Freedom - Elton John

1976
Silly Love Songs - Wings
Don't Go Breaking My Heart - Elton John & Kiki Dee
Disco Lady - Johnnie Taylor

1977
Tonight's the Night (Gonna Be Alright) - Rod Stewart
I Just Want to Be Your Everything - Andy Gibb
Best of My Love - The Emotions

1978
Shadow Dancing - Andy Gibb
Night Fever - Bee Gees
You Light Up My Life - Debby Boone

1979
My Sharona - The Knack
Bad Girls - Donna Summer
Le Freak - Chic

1980
Call Me - Blondie
Another Brick in the Wall, Part II - Pink Floyd
Magic - Olivia Newton-John

1981
Bette Davis Eyes - Kim Carnes
Endless Love - Diana Ross & Lionel Richie
Lady - Kenny Rogers

1982
Physical - Olivia Newton-John
Eye of the Tiger - Survivor
I Love Rock 'n Roll - Joan Jett and the Blackhearts

1983
Every Breath You Take - The Police
Billie Jean - Michael Jackson
Flashdance... What a Feeling - Irene Cara

1984
When Doves Cry - Prince
What's Love Got to Do with It - Tina Turner
Say Say Say - Paul McCartney and Michael Jackson

1985
Careless Whisper - Wham!
Like a Virgin - Madonna
Wake Me Up Before You Go-Go - Wham!

Seems like a mix of gems and crap. Just like music today. Want more? Did deeper into the top 100 charts for each year-- there's a lot of crap there-- more crap than gems IMO. People tend to remember the good stuff and block out the bad.

Now please excuse me whilst I get jiggy with The Ballad of the Green Berets.

[Dean Roddey]

I would say though that there was so much more variety in the top ten back then. I think it would not be a particularly good thing if it was all stuff that any given person would think is great. If you go deeper than the top 3, the variety is even more evident, particularly during the 70s. There was so much money coming into the music industry, and as is always the case when there's money to go around, they took a lot of risks. Every time I see a chart from the 70s and early 80s, I'm kind of shocked to see how much stuff is all mixed together.

You could have Led Zepplin, Dr. John, Helen Reddy, Chicago, Merle Haggard, Lynyrd Skynrd, and Barry Manilow all in the same chart (not saying those ever occurred specifically, but that kind of crazy breadth of albums in the top 100 albums of a given year.)

And, BTW, the list above is of singles, which is always going to lean more towards the teen girls market probably, and not be as indicative of the breadth of what was going on, I think. And of course Honey was basically a black hole of musical goodness that counterbalanced years of subsequent good music.

[sleepingbag]

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

Every time I see a chart from the 70s and early 80s, I'm kind of shocked to see how much stuff is all mixed together.

You could have Led Zepplin, Dr. John, Helen Reddy, Chicago, Merle Haggard, Lynyrd Skynrd, and Barry Manilow all in the same chart (not saying those ever occurred specifically, but that kind of crazy breadth of albums in the top 100 albums of a given year.)

Right now on the Billboard 200:

Coldplay
Mary J. Blige
Skrillex
Adele
Drake
Lamb of God
Gotye
Florence + the Machine
Mumford and Sons
the Black Keys
fukken Tony Bennett
Lady Gaga
Foster the People
Seal
Lady Antebellum
Bon Iver
M83
Pitbull
AWOLNATION

(also a bunch of stuff I don't know: "Celtic Woman"? "La Arrolladora Banda El Limon De Rene Camacho"? "Rumer"? "Elizaveta"? "Grafitti6"? You know what all these top selling bands sound like?)

No variety? This all sounds the same???????

Seriously, how is it possible for me to conclude anything other than you don't know what's on the charts these days when I hear stuff like 'music was more diverse back in the day man'? I totally get if you like all the bands on the 70's list more than all the bands on the 00's list (which, you know, might be pretty hard to conclude without hearing most of them but whatever), but even though there are definitely a few popular sounds that can dominate the charts at times (like disco often did in the golden age of rock, remember?), to say there's not a lot of variety in the charts at any given time is just straight up uninformed.

It's not the slightest bit shocking to me that people lose interest in new music and stop paying attention to it. Just admit it though! No need to go about trying to argue for some fantasy/idealized version of the past where the music from a certain era was the only good music, or was 'more diverse', it's absurd to anyone who actually is paying attention.

[chrisso]

I give you Pat Boone, Little Jimmy Osmond, The Partridge Family, Boney M, The Village People, The Bay City Rollers, The Smurfs, Eurovision.
The comment that things were better 'back in the day' is a common human trait, and is backed up by a selective memory.
You remember the standout music from each year, and block out the rubbish.
The two posts of YouTube classic clips is exactly that - the highlights, with the crap edited out.

[JP11]

I think the question is getting lost in the same arguments that everyone constantly makes...the fact that there has always been artists and music that was considered crap is so beside the point....

maybe it would be more useful to look at particular songs and figure out what's exceptional about them...

Eleanor Rigby was a number 1 hit...what makes it good? Musically? Lyrically? Arrangement-wise? Was it groundbreaking? And so on....

Then look at maybe an LMFAO song or Adele or whatever anyone considers an exceptional number 1 hit song from now and explain how the chords or melody or lyrics or arrangement are exceptional...

Maybe we'll all learn something!

Has Bon Iver had a number 1 hit? Not that I know of...but what makes them exceptional exactly other than it's not LMFAO...they seem pretty dreary and dull and unexceptional to me...

[chrisso]

Well why the obsession with hits, and the singles chart?
The music scene has fragmented, and so has the business.
Great music is available for download from self releasers. Do they get reported to the chart companies?
Today there are dozens of genres.
Back in the 60's and 70's there were a few genres - country, rock, pop, soul/funk.
The 60's and 70's charts reflected the fact most people bought rock and pop. Now just as many people only buy Techno, or Death Metal, or Rap, or Indie.

[JP11]

Because the topic is, or was, about mainstream music, which usually defines the musical culture of an era...the songs that people of a generation remember...

but I don't care....

pick a song from any genre and explain what makes it exceptional! Musically. Lyrically. Arrangement-wise. Culturally.

[sleepingbag]

I have as little interest in writing some big essay about a song as I do in reading a long analysis of why Eleanor Rigby is the best song ever written (possibly the #1 Beatles song I would love to never have to hear again, what the hell would be the point of ever listening to it again? I don't care how long the melody goes on for. I would rather listen to anything currently on the charts. Also wasn't a #1 in the US fwiw). If you want to read some interesting discussions about pop music, I recommend searching out writing by Nitsuh Abebe + Tom Ewing on pop, Alex MacPherson on RnB, Jordan Sargent on rap. I definitely don't always agree with everything they have to say, but if you're looking for a path into the scene of modern, insightful popular music criticism they're a good place to start, especially Abebe. But be warned -- he's not necessarily going to tell you WHY something IS GOOD or BAD -- you're going to have to make that decision for yourself (some of the other guys def. share their opinions a little more directly). Once you understand a little more of the contexts and conversations surrounding modern pop, you might find yourself intrigued by things you had dismissed as simple or typical or even stupid before. Sometimes there are things you just can't get until you put in the time.

Alright Superbowl time, Go Giants! Peace!

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by JP11

Because the topic is, or was, about mainstream music, which usually defines the musical culture of an era...the songs that people of a generation remember...

Then it's not about 'the top ten', because that measurement has become fragmented by dozens of new genres and sub-genres.
And youth culture is no longer defined by a record, more by a whole collection of music, internet and art.

[JP11]

There sure are a lot of long essays about god knows what here, and in all the other similar threads...

Why do people bother discussing music if they don't want to discuss the actual music...??

This thread was about musicianship and songwriting skill, melodies, harmonies, instrumental skill and all the stuff that are music...why would anyone post in it if they don't want to discuss those particular things?

Perhaps that in itself says it all....

[Dean Roddey]

Originally Posted by sleepingbag

Right now on the Billboard 200:

(also a bunch of stuff I don't know: "Celtic Woman"? "La Arrolladora Banda El Limon De Rene Camacho"? "Rumer"? "Elizaveta"? "Grafitti6"? You know what all these top selling bands sound like?)

No variety? This all sounds the same???????

Did I say that? No, I didn't. I said there was a huge amount of variety in the 70s. That's not the same as saying there's none now.

And, to be fair, you are talking about the top 200. You might get that much variety in some years of the 70s in the top 25. And it's not because I like 70s music better than anything else. If anything more of my music collection is from the 90s. And I like all the stuff I've heard from M83.

To the degree that my proposition is true, I think it was maybe because society was changing so much at the time, so you had music both from the 'pre and post-revolution' era gathered together on the charts. Country music still was large (meaning country music that is distinguishable from pop.) Even basically hillbilly music could be hits back then. There was still a lot of jazz influence around. A lot of drug driven experimentation. Prog was a viable genre back then (real prog, not metal.)

Maybe partly because there was a lot less micro-categorization back then as well, and DJs has more leeway to play stuff at their discretion than now. Maybe partly it was because so much money was available to risk on new acts, and some labels were still run more by individuals who drove act selection by their personal tastes, though I guess that was beginning to end.

Some of it I think would have to come down to the fact that it was more of a 'push' culture and now it's becoming a pull culture. I.e. you listened to the radio and if a DJ played something you never heard before, well there it was, and you either listened to it (and had a chance to start to like it) or you turned it off. And there weren't that many other buttons on the dial to go to.

Now you can just listen to exactly what you want whenever you want and live within your personal playlist world. Not everyone of course and not completely so, but I can't imagine that this doesn't contribute to a narrowing of exposure and continued movement towards micro-fractured genres, despite what people like to think about the internet - as evidenced by the dictionary of genre and sub-genre names these days.

Some of it may be that almost every single song is slammed to within an inch of its life and therefore its uniqueness isn't as evident, because a quarter of it ended up above 0dBFS, I dunno.

Some of it may be that fewer and fewer people are actually paying for music and so a smaller and smaller subset of people determine the charts, though this is probably not the case since downloads basically track sales.

Anyway, I'm not making any claim about gooder or badder, but it does seem to me that more variety was visible in the best selling albums then, and being pushed by real investment, and that there are reasonable factors that might contribute to that having been so, nothing to do with good vs. bad.

[Happy Musicfan]

Originally Posted by MarvinDog

Hmm, let's look at the top 3 Billboard songs from each of these years 65-85, eh?

1965 -
Wooly Bully - Sam the Sham and the Pharaohs
I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) - Four Tops
(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction - The Rolling Stones

1966
Ballad of the Green Berets - Sgt. Barry Sadler
Cherish - The Association
(You're My) Soul and Inspiration - The Righteous Brothers

1967
To Sir, with Love - Lulu
The Letter - The Box Tops
Ode to Billie Joe - Bobbie Gentry

1968
Hey Jude - The Beatles
Love is Blue - Paul Mauriat
Honey - Bobby Goldsboro

1969
Sugar, Sugar - The Archies
Aquarius/Let the Sunshine In - The 5th Dimension
I Can't Get Next to You - The Temptations

1970
Bridge over Troubled Water - Simon & Garfunkel
(They Long to Be) Close to You - The Carpenters
American Woman - The Guess Who

1971
Joy to the World - Three Dog Night
Maggie May - Rod Stewart
It's Too Late - Carole King

1972
The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face - Roberta Flack
Alone Again (Naturally) - Gilbert O'Sullivan
American Pie - Don McLean

1973
Tie a Yellow Ribbon Round the Ole Oak Tree - Tony Orlando and Dawn
Bad, Bad Leroy Brown - Jim Croce
Killing Me Softly with His Song - Roberta Flack

1974
The Way We Were - Barbra Streisand
Seasons in the Sun - Terry Jacks
Love's Theme - Love Unlimited Orchestra

1975
Love Will Keep Us Together - Captain & Tennille
Rhinestone Cowboy - Glen Campbell
Philadelphia Freedom - Elton John

1976
Silly Love Songs - Wings
Don't Go Breaking My Heart - Elton John & Kiki Dee
Disco Lady - Johnnie Taylor

1977
Tonight's the Night (Gonna Be Alright) - Rod Stewart
I Just Want to Be Your Everything - Andy Gibb
Best of My Love - The Emotions

1978
Shadow Dancing - Andy Gibb
Night Fever - Bee Gees
You Light Up My Life - Debby Boone

1979
My Sharona - The Knack
Bad Girls - Donna Summer
Le Freak - Chic

1980
Call Me - Blondie
Another Brick in the Wall, Part II - Pink Floyd
Magic - Olivia Newton-John

1981
Bette Davis Eyes - Kim Carnes
Endless Love - Diana Ross & Lionel Richie
Lady - Kenny Rogers

1982
Physical - Olivia Newton-John
Eye of the Tiger - Survivor
I Love Rock 'n Roll - Joan Jett and the Blackhearts

1983
Every Breath You Take - The Police
Billie Jean - Michael Jackson
Flashdance... What a Feeling - Irene Cara

1984
When Doves Cry - Prince
What's Love Got to Do with It - Tina Turner
Say Say Say - Paul McCartney and Michael Jackson

1985
Careless Whisper - Wham!
Like a Virgin - Madonna
Wake Me Up Before You Go-Go - Wham!

Seems like a mix of gems and crap. Just like music today. Want more? Did deeper into the top 100 charts for each year-- there's a lot of crap there-- more crap than gems IMO. People tend to remember the good stuff and block out the bad.

Now please excuse me whilst I get jiggy with The Ballad of the Green Berets.

1965-1969 - Billboard #1's (USA)

Downtown
You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin'
Ticket To Ride
Mr. Tambourine Man
Help!
Eve Of Destruction
Yesterday
Turn! Turn! Turn! (To Everything There Is A Season)
The Sound Of Silence
Lightnin' Strikes
Monday, Monday
When A Man Loves A Woman
Paint It, Black
Paperback Writer
Summer In The City
You Keep Me Hangin' On
Good Vibrations
Ruby Tuesday
Penny Lane
Happy Together
Respect
Light My Fire
All You Need Is Love
To Sir With Love
Hello Goodbye
(Sittin' On) The Dock Of The Bay
Mrs. Robinson
Hello, I Love You
People Got To Be Free
Hey Jude
I Heard It Through The Grapevine
Everyday People
Aquarius/Let The Sunshine In
Get Back
Love Theme From Romeo & Juliet
Suspicious Minds
Come Together/Something
Leaving On A Jet Plane

1970-1979 - Billboard #1's (USA)

Raindrops Keep Fallin' On My Head
Bridge Over Troubled Water
The Long And Winding Road/For You Blue
The Love You Save
Mama Told Me (Not To Come)
(They Long To Be) Close To You
Make It With You
War
Ain't No Mountain High Enough
Cracklin' Rosie
I'll Be There
The Tears Of A Clown
My Sweet Lord/Isn't It A Pity
Me And Bobby McGee
Just My Imagination (Running Away With Me)
Joy To The World
It's Too Late/I Feel The Earth Move
You've Got A Friend
How Can You Mend A Broken Heart
Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey
Maggie May/Reason To Believe
Gypsys, Tramps & Thieves
Theme From Shaft
Family Affair
American Pie (Parts I & II)
Let's Stay Together
Heart Of Gold
A Horse With No Name
The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face
Lean On Me
Black & White
I Can See Clearly Now
Papa Was A Rollin' Stone
You're So Vain
Superstition
Crocodile Rock
The Night The Lights Went Out In Georgia
You Are The Sunshine Of My Life
Give Me Love - (Give Me Peace On Earth)
Angie
Midnight Train To Georgia
Time In A Bottle
The Joker
Seasons In The Sun
Sunshine On My Shoulders
Bennie And The Jets
Band On The Run
Sundown
Cat's In The Cradle
Have You Never Been Mellow
Love Will Keep Us Together
Listen To What The Man Said
Welcome Back
Don't Go Breaking My Heart
If You Leave Me Now
Blinded By The Light
Rich Girl
Hotel California
Sir Duke
Night Fever
With A Little Luck
MacArthur Park
Too Much Heaven
I Will Survive
Heart Of Glass
My Sharona
Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough
Rise

1980-1989 - Billboard #1's (USA)

Rock With You
Do That To Me One More Time
Crazy Little Thing Called Love
Another Brick In The Wall (Part II)
Call Me
Funkytown
Coming Up
It's Still Rock And Roll To Me
Magic
Sailing
Upside Down
Another One Bites The Dust
(Just Like) Starting Over
I Love A Rainy Night
Keep On Loving You
I Love Rock 'N Roll
Chariots Of Fire
Ebony And Ivory
Don't You Want Me
Eye Of The Tiger
Jack & Diane
Who Can It Be Now
Up Where We Belong
Maneater
Africa
Come On Eileen
Beat It
Let's Dance
Every Breath You Take
Sweet Dreams (Are Made of This)
Total Eclipse Of The Heart
Say Say Say
Owner Of A Lonely Heart
Jump
Against All Odds (Take A Look At Me Now)
Don't You (Forget About Me)
Everybody Wants To Rule The World
Shout
Money For Nothing
Take On Me
Broken Wings
Sledgehammer
Take My Breath Away
With Or Without You
I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For
Man In The Mirror
Sweet Child O' Mine

You forgot something. The songs I've posted are the *rule*, the songs you posted are the *exception* to the songwriting standard of the time.

Still, the worst songs of the last 10 years are much much worse than your attempt to provide the worst songs of the 1960's, 1970's and 1980's. All one needs is Minaj's 'Stupid Hoe' to *instantly* prove it. Minaj's 'Stupid Hoe' is a perfectly successful attempt to obliterate the 8 characteristics listed in the first post.

Ha ha !

[Happy Musicfan]

Originally Posted by sleepingbag

You really need to stop thinking that the pop music of the past has disappeared and been replaced by the Black Eyed Peas.

I never said that. That's polyester reaching by the sleepingbag.

Instead, I say that the biggest names (such as the BEP's) focus more on the wowza features than the aforementioned 8 old school characteristics.