What percentage of a typical sample CD is usable?

[pqlia]

I don’t usually moan! Easy going type me, ……

But WHY oh WHY oh WHY is it that all the sample CDs I own have about 5% of great useable sounds and 95% of filler?

I have a string library which has one spic cello, one viola a couple of pizzicato and a few usable one shot phrases that represent about 5% of the content of the CD

I have a drum library with about 3 usable kick drums, two snares, a rim and some hats – again representing around 5% of the total content – the rest of the drums sound as though they need a greasy, high calorie meal.

And has anyone ever had a situation where the fattest kick drum in a library just happens to have another sound blended in with it which limits its usefulness and is impossible to extract or conceal???

I have a synth CD which promised the world but delivered 90% of it keyboard ‘sounds’ as a SINGLE NOTE laid over the entire length of the keyboard!!! – Don’t ask me if my request for a refund of £65 was granted!!!!

I could go on and on…..

A question to Sample CD manufacterers:
How hard it could be to produce a large bank of sounds, maybe even genre specific which had a vast array of sounds – each one of them sounding as ‘plush’ as those you hear on the best produced CDs, it’d take so much stress out of arranging music! – don’t compress the sounds!!!!! Please – we cant remove the compression but we can add it ourselves IF we want to. Don’t make drum sounds sound tight and small because no amount of fakery will make them broad and big, Make them massive and we can make them smaller IF desired. And please don’t give us 10.000 drum loops using the SAME KIT!!!

And most importantly, road test every sound, if it doesn’t cut it in a mix don’t include it on the CD.

[tonemaker]

--- oops i misread the OP sorry

[AbsoluteSpirit]

Originally Posted by pqlia

But WHY oh WHY oh WHY is it that all the sample CDs I own have about 5% of great useable sounds and 95% of filler?

Sturgeons law...

...& if sample CDs gave you the raw building blocks you wouldn't become a dependent and repeat customer.

[tonemaker]

yeah i know what you guys mean. (now that i re-read the op). i gave up on sample CD's and even most download packs. usually there is only one or two sounds i like amongst a pack of hundreds. I've built a personal collection from those isolated goodies, but it's still not a lot. Luckily the decent VSTi samplers allow you to layer and tweak the samples to get a fully sound. But even so, your point still stands. Which is yet another reason why I focus more on synthesis and making my own field recordings.

[pqlia]

Originally Posted by astroidmist

yeah i know what you guys mean. (now that i re-read the op). i gave up on sample CD's and even most download packs. usually there is only one or two sounds i like amongst a pack of hundreds. I've built a personal collection from those isolated goodies, but it's still not a lot. Luckily the decent VSTi samplers allow you to layer and tweak the samples to get a fully sound. But even so, your point still stands. Which is yet another reason why I focus more on synthesis and making my own field recordings.

Wow! i thought it was just me! ..... i was wondering how it is that people are satisfied with that 5% - but clearly SOME people are, because there'd be no market if people werent as happy as larry. There's always a MASSIVE chasm between my expectation and reality when I purchase a sample CD. I imagine having many different colours to paint with but in actuality there's frequently only one or two. Unfortunately sound isn’t like an artists palette you cant create every conceivable sound from only three quality ‘primary colours’

please tell me more about your field recordings when you get time

[pqlia]

Originally Posted by AbsoluteSpirit

Sturgeons law...

...& if sample CDs gave you the raw building blocks you wouldn't become a dependent and repeat customer.

Hhhhhhm! - you may have a point.

[famousbass]

It really depends on the brand, and your headspace in a project.
Off the top of my head, I like the Sony libraries, Sample Magic, and Ueberschall. They tend to blend and compliment rather than create more work making them fit.
I find the plush sounding libraries, like some over enhanced stuff, never fit in the production because they want the sound to stand out to sell the library, not to fit my mix.
I mentioned headspace, one library I bought years ago I was disappointed at the 5% of useable sounds gripe, but started using recently as the other 95% fitted a client's needs almost perfectly. This is common as I do more quick work for clients these days.
And I've got libraries costing in the early $100s that I couldn't live without around the turn of the century that haven't even been touched for the last 7 years. Heck, it's the price of love.
Its not always the library, it's sometimes you too.

[pqlia]

Originally Posted by famousbass

Its not always the library, it's sometimes you too.

My ego is rearing its less than handsome head, trying to find some way to rebel against that remark.

[pqlia]

Originally Posted by famousbass

It really depends on the brand [..............] Off the top of my head, I like the Sony libraries, Sample Magic, and Ueberschall. They tend to blend and compliment rather than create more work making them fit.
.

If the situation was occurring over a few months or weeks I’d be inclined to agree that it’s not the sample CD but me! but as I’ve constantly tried to persuade that 95% to sound decent for literally years now – almost ten years in some cases, I’m quite sure it’s not me.

I would have to say that the ratio of usable to filler is MUCH more than 5% with a couple of Sample Magic products which I’ve tried. I’ve not had experience of Sony or Ueberschall so will investigate.

Thanks for the tip.

[pqlia]

Another thing which I find completely infuriating is how too many sample CDs ‘lead’ you or dictate too heavily what you should do with the sounds. I know you can chop loops up and re-contextualise musical phrases. But for years I’ve longed for a massive ‘utility bank’ of sounds (to use in conjunction with more genre specific stuff)

Imagine if for example we wasn’t always served up a 909 kick, over-processed and ready to do what you would expect to do with one. But instead we had a vast selection of ‘papery’ kick shell tones which were recorded with something disgustingly esoteric and not compressed to death… preferably not compressed at all! Dull thudy tones, ambient tones thinned out with some plush eq. bloomy boom tones – and they’d all fit together nicely without that ‘flaming’ sound which often causes you to go back to using a single sound because although it’s not what you wanted it actually sounds better!!! WE could then tailor the sound to OUR creative needs.

How about a selection of atonal abstract noises that could be edited and used in all sorts of creative ways instead of a pitched horn stab which is screaming and begging for you to use it in a specific way. Noise loops which could be placed behind our programmed beat without interfering with it.

There’s often too much of a sonic signature with the paint by numbers approach. Give me a massive selection of raw sounds so I can sculpt them if desired or leave them raw – instead of the whole thing being only about how cleverly you can re-contextualise a ‘construction kit’

[AbsoluteSpirit]

Originally Posted by pqlia

Imagine if...

a vast selection...
preferably not compressed at all!

WE could then tailor the sound to OUR creative needs.

How about a selection of atonal abstract noises that could be edited and used in all sorts of creative ways...

Give me a massive selection of raw sounds so I can sculpt them if desired or leave them raw...

Yeah, you're forgetting that most people are lazy tho...

Sample CDs are, amongst other things, for the creatively, educationally, technically, inspirationally challenged and/or time constrained...

Some are better than others, some are better for other people & some days exactly what you need but, like most things these days, they're aimed at very specific audiences - why buy 10,000 drums when you only want 500 'hip hop' drums?

...and even then, the sample maker has to cover as many bases as possible within that genre whilst padding things out to look competitive "hey, we have 5000 drums too!" and if they're smart, holding back a stack of 'good stuff' to sell V2.0 "bigger & better" etc.

[pqlia]

[QUOTE . . . if they're smart, [they'd] hold back a stack of 'good stuff' to sell V2.0 "bigger & better" etc.[/QUOTE]

I WAS about to say that no one could do such a wicked thing and sleep soundly at night .....

... but then i remember a certain drum machine i owned which malfunctioned one day and started producing sounds that it didnt 'officially' have!!!!????

I also remember a sample CD which had amongst its regular banks a loop which just happened to be one of the best sounding loops - my eyes lit up!!! (ears?) and i hurried to the individual elements folder to see how i could stamp my creative signature on those elements..... curiously there was NO elements folder for that particular loop !!!!!!!!!!! & a few more !!!!!!!'s for good measure.

[famousbass]

Originally Posted by pqlia

[QUOTE . . . if they're smart, [they'd] hold back a stack of 'good stuff' to sell V2.0 "bigger & better" etc.

I WAS about to say that no one could do such a wicked thing and sleep soundly at night .....

... but then i remember a certain drum machine i owned which malfunctioned one day and started producing sounds that it didnt 'officially' have!!!!????

I also remember a sample CD which had amongst its regular banks a loop which just happened to be one of the best sounding loops - my eyes lit up!!! (ears?) and i hurried to the individual elements folder to see how i could stamp my creative signature on those elements..... curiously there was NO elements folder for that particular loop !!!!!!!!!!! & a few more !!!!!!!'s for good measure. [/QUOTE]

A friend of mine made a few drum sample cds.
I have seen first hand how laborious it is.
It's easy to make a mistake with 1000s of sounds of one instrument family.
Can you imagine the boredom? It's tedious.
Haven't you got a library folder that has the same sounds twice or the difference is so minor it is a waste of audio to include it? Guitar rhythm tracks come to mind.

Yeah, I've seen the great loop that has no construction kit, it's common.
There's a good chance it was committed to a two track protection recording while they were setting up. There's also a good chance the artist doesn't want it to be dissected and sold. There's also a good chance the multitrack no longer exists. Or the library creators just really hate your guts and want you to suffer. The components aren't always available for so many reasons.

But I've got tons of libraries with Construction Kits and Extras folder that are just killer.

There's no standard. And, like everything else there's no one perfect product.

My biggest gripe is idiotic "Funk" libraries that have lot's of playing in odd keys and very little in the strong keys of the genre. Ab? Really... What about E, A, C, F, D, G. So many hits. Ab, Db, Bb, Eb (the worst is Eb)!?! Honestly. And not all the band playing in one key but bits of playing by everyone spread across different unrelated grooves? Well, you know it's not recorded with any regard for the pro users, it's for hobbyists... and what the immature sample library makers can get away with.

And rock guitar libraries that aren't in E or A. Ridiculous, arrogant, stupid, unusable. And Major chords but few minors and vice versa.
The point of that is the guy making the library is musically and genre specifically stupid.

Polla, have you ever heard or own the perfect sample cd?

[tonemaker]

well to answer your question, pqlia,..

My field recordings are stuff like peeling an orange, tearing cardboard, starting my car, slamming doors, ticking clocks, rain, hail, wind howling in the windowpane, etc. It sounds nice and usually I pitch it down to sound more dramatic.

Unfortunately, I can usually never decide what to do with the filed recordings. So I have a folder of stuff that sounds great on it's own but not in any tunes yet. I have used some of them in tunes, but not many yet. But there is always the future.

Also, my field recorder (Tascam DR-03) doesn't have cardioid directional mics so you can barely hear any stereo information at all. It's an XY configuration also, so it practically sounds like mono. This was very disappointing. If I ever buy a field recorder again, I will make sure it's cardioid mics and perhaps even a short-distanced spaced pair. But it does have mic inputs so I can at least mess around with that and some lavalier mics I have attached.

The best sound I have used so far came from slamming my mother's dish cupboard which I used as a kick drum layer. It's basically tea cups and plates rattling but it sounds like something heavy slamming and vibrating when pitched down and mixed with other sounds.

Sorry I don't have any audio examples up online.

The best sound I hope to use is when a plumber was drilling with a jackhammer on a resonant sewage pipe up in the apartment above me while I was running my bath water. It sounds like a submarine imploding or something. Hahaha. It's kind of intense. It was one of the most disturbing sounds I had to endure that day, so I made the best of it and recorded it. The smell was not too good either!! (a pipe had burst!).

[pqlia]

My field recordings are stuff like peeling an orange, tearing cardboard, starting my car, slamming doors, ticking clocks, rain, hail, wind howling in the windowpane, etc. It sounds nice and usually I pitch it down to sound more dramatic.

The best sound I have used so far came from slamming my mother's dish cupboard which I used as a kick drum layer. It's basically tea cups and plates rattling but it sounds like something heavy slamming and vibrating when pitched down and mixed with other sounds.

Should like to hear that.

Very interesting! and refreshing to hear that people are still creating their own sounds in this manner.

Would've been great to hear some examples though!

Some people hate old school rap... the thing I loved about it was the hands on approach to recording and sampling your own sounds... especially re-sampling. I remember conversation with guys who were on a more experimental tip who'd do things like put a mic up at one end of their garden to capture the distant road traffic noise and general ambience then place that behind a mix at a near subliminal level, more for their own benefit than anything else – some strangely rewarding pleasure from knowing how you built a track, even though the finer subtlest may not be readily apparent to the casual listener.

I used to love re-sampling guitars, my bass, entire musical sections - there's something very rewarding with the DIY approach. Unfortunately I had poor mics when I was sampling a lot and that would compromise my acoustic recording – now I have a better mic, so in theory I have no excuse – I may fetch out the old Emu again and see what happens.

[pqlia]

[QUOTE=famousbass;7534045]

Yeah, I've seen the great loop that has no construction kit, it's common.

those sneaky people!

There's a good chance it was committed to a two track protection recording while they were setting up. There's also a good chance the artist doesn't want it to be dissected and sold. There's also a good chance the multi-track no longer exists. Or the library creators just really hate your guts and want you to suffer.

amusing.

And, like everything else there's no one perfect product.

But the frequency of the 5% usability sample CD really needs addressing.

My biggest gripe is idiotic "Funk" libraries that have lot's of playing in odd keys and very little in the strong keys of the genre. Ab? Really... What about E, A, C, F, D, G. So many hits. Ab, Db, Bb, Eb (the worst is Eb)!?! Honestly. And not all the band playing in one key but bits of playing by everyone spread across different unrelated grooves? Well, you know it's not recorded with any regard for the pro users, it's for hobbyists... and what the immature sample library makers can get away with.

I like to play most things myself if I’m able - but i don’t fool myself! - I'm not the greatest guitarist, pianist etc... so i have no problems using sampled musical phrases - especially as 9 times out of 10 I’ll use the phrase in a completely different context than the intended one..

My gripe is overplaying...if you were playing in a real life band with some of those sample CD's you'd be frequently wishing that they would just keep it down a bit... I'll give you an example - sometimes multi-sampled strings lack the personality/authenticity of a real string section for a variety of reasons.. when orchestrating, frequently all that may be required at certain sections of a song is a 1st and a 5th played with some realistic expression/dynamics... because they will fit with a major, major seventh, seventh, minor, ninth etc etc etc but frequently, it's hard to find anything that simple.. you then end up writing around the sample instead of the other way around...

Likewise, you may have a beat going, piano, synth sounds adding counterpoint and all that's needed is some restrained guitar playing something minimal, like some tasteful, disciplined blues inspired lick, violining - (volume riding) etc.. but try finding that understated lick and you'll be searching all day for it.

Strange thing is that.... even after all this... I don’t feel like I’m ready to quit moaning for a good long time...

[themixtape]

Better question to ask... what percentage of sample CDs are uncleared samples? I'm sure you'll find a healthy 70%.

E-lab was notorious for using uncleared samples. Equipped Music is more of the same (notice how e-lab disappeared... Equipped took its place and all old releases just vanished... my guess is, a lawsuit).

A lot of Zero-G libraries are uncleared.... especially the Drum N Bass stuff (Amen break, anyone? Still never been cleared on any of those libraries featuring it).

Heard an e-lab or Equipped music release that fully sampled the opening track on Morcheeba's 1998 album "Big Calm"... blatantly. Pitched it up a few semitones... ridiculous.

To be fair, some libraries are great.... Motion Samples (now Primesounds, I think that's their new name) has totally royalty-free stuff, but when they were Motion Samples, they had a better selection of discs.

[pqlia]

Originally Posted by themixtape

Better question to ask... what percentage of sample CDs are uncleared samples? I'm sure you'll find a healthy 70%.

No manufacturer would do that . . . surely .... ???

E-lab was notorious for using uncleared samples. Equipped Music is more of the same (notice how e-lab disappeared... Equipped took its place and all old releases just vanished... my guess is, a lawsuit).

Please tell me you're joking!

A lot of Zero-G libraries are uncleared.... especially the Drum N Bass stuff (Amen break, anyone? Still never been cleared on any of those libraries featuring it).

No!!!?

To be fair, some libraries are great.... Motion Samples (now Primesounds, I think that's their new name) has totally royalty-free stuff, but when they were Motion Samples, they had a better selection of discs.

I'll check them out! thanks.

[famousbass]

Originally Posted by pqlia

No manufacturer would do that . . . surely .... ???
Please tell me you're joking!
No!!!?
I'll check them out! thanks.

Well, you'd be surprised.
Especially the companies that started in the late 80s/early 90s, when there was no enforceable laws.
They literally got away with what they could and waited for the letters to arrive and just took the stuff off the catalog, or folded the company.
I always wonder what happened to E-Labs. It was pretty obviously hundreds of samps from records they didn't own but done in the days when short samples weren't illegal. Yet...

[pqlia]

Originally Posted by famousbass

Well, you'd be surprised.
Especially the companies that started in the late 80s/early 90s, when there was no enforceable laws.
They literally got away with what they could and waited for the letters to arrive and just took the stuff off the catalog, or folded the company.
I always wonder what happened to E-Labs. It was pretty obviously hundreds of samps from records they didn't own but done in the days when short samples weren't illegal. Yet...

This is an education to me! - I wasn’t aware of it at all - I used to wonder why sample manufacturers would print '100% copyright free' material (or words to that effect) - I used to wonder why they were proclaiming the obvious?!?!

The irony is I’ve been tempted on many frustrated occasion to 'borrow' samples from other peoples recordings and couldn’t go through with it - due to my conscience and legal issues?!?!? - little did I know that SOME sample manufactures had a far more, shall we say 'casual' approach!

[famousbass]

Originally Posted by pqlia

This is an education to me! - I wasn’t aware of it at all - I used to wonder why sample manufacturers would print '100% copyright free' material (or words to that effect) - I used to wonder why they were proclaiming the obvious?!?!

The irony is I’ve been tempted on many frustrated occasion to 'borrow' samples from other peoples recordings and couldn’t go through with it - due to my conscience and legal issues?!?!? - little did I know that SOME sample manufactures had a far more, shall we say 'casual' approach!

Not casual entirely.
There was a different legality back then.
As the legally allowable sample seconds contracted these cds became more illegitimate, if you like. At the same time these shady companies still abused, what we would consider these days, a very obliging approach to sampling, helping accelerate the tightening of the very laws they were trying to circumnavigate.

I believe companies as recent as Mutekki/Vengeance have had the finger pointed at them too for illegally sampling commercial releases for resale.

Today, there's countless kicks and sometimes snares that have been 'borrowed" by producers because they're considered impossible to trace. And some of them tell you on video where they "borrowed" their short samples from.

The legality is simple, if the owner of the copyright doesn't enforce the law then you're not breaking it.

The corollary is "Where there's a hit, there's a writ."

[pqlia]

Originally Posted by famousbass

Not casual entirely.
There was a different legality back then.
As the legally allowable sample seconds contracted these cds became more illegitimate, if you like. At the same time these shady companies still abused, what we would consider these days, a very obliging approach to sampling, helping accelerate the tightening of the very laws they were trying to circumnavigate.

I believe companies as recent as Mutekki/Vengeance have had the finger pointed at them too for illegally sampling commercial releases for resale.

Today, there's countless kicks and sometimes snares that have been 'borrowed" by producers because they're considered impossible to trace. And some of them tell you on video where they "borrowed" their short samples from.

The legality is simple, if the owner of the copyright doesn't enforce the law then you're not breaking it.

The corollary is "Where there's a hit, there's a writ."

V. Interesting!

Though, if 'some' pro sample producers have the right tools to create amazing samples.. & are tirelessly telling us how great they are...then i struggle to see why they have the need or inclination to 'borrow' anything from anywhere else???