I need your advice. [LENGTHY]

[morejaylesswar]

As a young musician and engineer, I look to the Gearslutz community as the mentor that I wouldn't have otherwise in my current situation. I appreciate the knowledge a lot of you guys have shared with me. Most of you have the experiences that I would love to have. However, I am actively working on making my own career and have my own experiences. So, this is why I ask you how I should handle this situation.

Last week I recorded a very talented artist. She is virtually unknown, but doing a lot to change that. I wanted to work with her because I believe in her talent, and I needed the experience of recording another genre of music other than Hip-Hop. It worked out well for us, because I'm pretty sure she needed a place to lay a record down and I needed a song to mix. I am not in a position where I know enough and I am confident enough to charge for my services. I have been doing so for the past year. I've made a pretty decent amount of money so far. This time, I recorded her for free without even asking for compensation for my work. I just wanted to help her out.

Now, I have an online portfolio (via SoundCloud) of the mixes that I've done. It's there to share with potential clients, as well as to share my progression as a recording and mix engineer with the people who care about that stuff. Anytime I do a mix that I think is really good, I post it there. I do not promote that SoundCloud, though. I just put it there as a place to build up my resume and so that I can let other mix engineers hear my work and they can offer their critiques and help me out. Since joining GS, that SoundCloud has been an uploading space to get help with the mixes I am currently working on at the time.

Anyway, once I finished her mix, I posted it to my portfolio and I also posted it on my personal blog and wrote a post about my progression as a mix engineer. I did not promote the song or send it to anyone. There are no downloads of the record posted. I posted it to my SoundCloud that has 3 followers and I have not sent the song out anywhere. I did, however, post the song in a "check out my mix" thread to get some critiques and some help with mixing that genre of music. I get a lot of great advice and I honestly would not have been able to complete that mix without the stuff that I've learned here. I thought I'd share it with you guys.

So, by whatever miraculous way she found the song posted to my portfolio and sent me a text saying:

"Soooo, you posted the song online?"

I responded with: "On my portfolio, yes."

She then says to me: "I was going to wait to release it. I was going to have visuals to go with it and I didn't want it out before then. All I'm saying is ask next time. Just ask before you post something because you don't know what I have planned for my music. My project isn't out yet and Mary Jade isn't going to be my first single. That was a major leak and I can't have anyone I'm working with leaking my music."

Mind you, I was not paid for the 5 hour recording session or the 14 hour mix session I did for this record. Outside of the music, I picked her up from her home and took her back home and to a friend's house afterwards. I never asked for anything in return because I was interested in working with her and I wanted to mix something other than rap.

I'll admit, that really got me upset... But I responded:

"I understand where you're coming from. If I offended you that was not my intent and I apologize. However, being a recording and mix engineer is my business and my ultimate goal is to make an income off of this. We put together a record together, and I do feel like this was a creative collaboration between the both of us. I did not push the record, nor did I post it in an public forum aside from my professional space and my personal blog as a testament to my work as an engineer. I placed it in my professional portfolio for the advancement of my career. I use my portfolio as a resume. I put a lot into that record, just as you did. I appreciate your vision and we will keep this more business orientated from now on."

While she's not a client, I don't want to soil a potential working relationship with her; but what she said to me really bothered me. It feels like being a mix engineer is such a thankless job to artists. I work both sides of the spectrum being a musician and a learning engineer. I don't think I would ever say something like that to someone who did a free record for me and took the time to mix it. I would only feel some kind of way if they were promoting it all on Twitter, Facebook, etc. Even then, as a virtually unknown artist... All promo is good promo. She was very happy with the mix and expressed interest in wanting to work with me again. I mean, if I did the work for free, it was based on building a professional relationship with her. I feel like I did some free work and got burned for it.

How would you handle this situation? Was I in the wrong? I'm all ears because I don't know the proper etiquette. I'd love for some kind of guidance here; being that this is really bothering me.

[Chris Lago]

Hey,

I think you should have talked to her beforehand about it. You can't just release music without her consent. Next time, tell her, sure I can produce/mix for free, but I need to be able to release a snippet for my future clients. I'm sure she'd understand, I mean she's getting all this for free. Just don't release music without the artist's consent.

[morejaylesswar]

Originally Posted by Chris Lago

Hey,

I think you should have talked to her beforehand about it. You can't just release music without her consent. Next time, tell her, sure I can produce/mix for free, but I need to be able to release a snippet for my future clients. I'm sure she'd understand, I mean she's getting all this for free. Just don't release music without the artist's consent.

Yea, I get that. I didn't think it'd be such a huge thing since I hadn't pushed the record. My soundcloud averages about 10-20 plays a week. Most of which are me checking mixes from my car when I don't have time to sync my phones up or burn CDs to listen.

I think I took it personal because I hadn't felt like I "released" anything, other than putting it in my storage space of SoundCloud. I mean, I just cleared it out the other day. It had a bunch of random mic takes and drum loops that I was holding there. But, I can see where the both of you are coming from. I'll just have to know that for the next time and make the lines of business and personal favors a bit more clear.

I usually go through paperwork with the people who pay me. They've never had a problem with the songs being on my SoundCloud. I just assumed, which I should never do.

[JoRillo]

You weren't wrong, but at the same time you were wrong. You should never put a song online that hasn't been released by the artist yet, without at least their consent. Now you did the project for free, and techniqually it is your session, so you didn't do anything bad, just an amateur mistake that you now know not to make.

You handled the response fairly well, just make sure you let her know that from now on you won't post the music online again. If you do want someone else to check it, put it up as a private track, then only the places you post it will see the track, but no where else. When you get more major money and cliental coming threw that is when you need the 100% never post it online mentality, but a few private tracks for free artists won't ruin anyones career.

Glad to see you gettin your hands dirty in other music genres, I haven't checked the track yet (guess I should have done that before this whole mess ), but as soon as it is rereleased i'll be sure to give it a listen.

Stay up J.

[chrisso]

Chris is right.
However trivial you think what you did is, you didn't ask her permission.
Unfortunately she is 100% right and you are wrong.
Ask next time, and accept if the answer is no.
Also, Chris' comment about stating what you'd like to get out of a collaboration (clips for my resume) up front is a good one.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by JoRillo

Now you did the project for free, and techniqually it is your session,

It isn't his song or his performance. Key points.

just an amateur mistake that you now know not to make.

Agreed.

[JoRillo]

Originally Posted by chrisso

It isn't his song or his performance. Key points.

Would that be the case for a 100% free session, recorded in his studio, with his equipment, and him running it all? I guess it all falls under creative content, which is hers.

I don't know the rules on this so have you heard of a situation in the past? I am now interested in finding out some more about this.

[morejaylesswar]

Originally Posted by chrisso

Chris is right.
However trivial you think what you did is, you didn't ask her permission.
Unfortunately she is 100% right and you are wrong.
Ask next time, and accept if the answer is no.
Also, Chris' comment about stating what you'd like to get out of a collaboration (clips for my resume) up front is a good one.

Absolutely. I am going to make that known upfront. I usually do, but I assumed (again, wrong of me to do) that this situation was a bit different being that it was a free session on the strength of a friendship between her and I beforehand.

If we work together in the future, I will present her with the same paperwork and experience that I give with the people who have paid in me in the past. That was my mistake. I am happy to have learned this early on, you know?

[morejaylesswar]

Originally Posted by JoRillo

Would that be the case for a 100% free session, recorded in his studio, with his equipment, and him running it all? I guess it all falls under creative content, which is hers.

I don't know the rules on this so have you heard of a situation in the past? I am now interested in finding out some more about this.

That was my mindset in coming into this. I hit her up initially and told her that I was looking to record her because I believed in her music and I wanted to help out, as well as that I was looking to do more creative stuff. So I figured that it was an understood mutually beneficial situation, being that it was free and it gave me the opportunity to do something else.

I did not go into this feeling like she hired me to do a job because I made the first contact.

I guess that's why I took it so personal.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by JoRillo

Would that be the case for a 100% free session, recorded in his studio, with his equipment, and him running it all? I guess it all falls under creative content, which is hers.

I don't know the rules on this so have you heard of a situation in the past? I am now interested in finding out some more about this.

It's just right and proper, polite.

I collaborate with people all the time.
If you are collaborating, you never make a decision without consulting the other person.
It's not really a question of who paid for what, or legalities.
It's about mutual trust.
If this artist is going places, I would assume recording her and mixing the track would be good for Jay. Maybe people in the business would hear it, or after it is released by the artist others would wonder who produced the track, maybe love his production work. That's kinda how you get on in the business.
If you put it up on Soundcloud without the artist knowing, it really is an unauthorized leak, exactly as she says.

[Ward Pike]

I won't even let anyone listen to samples of another's recording in my studio without expressed permission.

[joelpatterson]

Well, yeah, but just to offer a contrarian viewpoint, I would say this girl's proper response would be to be OVERJOYED that you (1) worked on producing her music for not one single goddam dime, and (2) thought enough of it to try to get some attention for it-- admittedly, not whole-hoggedly getting attention like buying a full page ad in Rolling Stone.

While everyone is "right" (ask permission, get permission, grovel and plead and beg for permission), the sad and unfortunate and universal truth which I have experienced over and over again and again is that the artist generally and always is way, way too, too "protective" of their work, and twin that with a preposterously unrealistic attitude: once the world is exposed to it, all in good time, the world will do double back flips, seize on it, treasure it and take it into its heart. All in all, a great formula to guarantee obscurity.

"This isn't going to be my first single." Hooooooooooooo-boy....

[Pliplo]

It's not that you did something terrible, i see it as an honest mistake. Artists can be really sensitive when it comes to their music.

Having said that, i did have a thought about this all...

No matter how true what she said is about her loving your mix and everything you did for her music, if suddenly she gets heat and gets signed and known, she'll probably ditch you and go record with CLA in a big fat studio... Maybe no one NOT at the top of the studio chain can avoid that sort of things, but i feel the first step would be to really create a lot of trust and good feelings between you and your clients... oops!

[evangelista]

Originally Posted by Ward Pike

I won't even let anyone listen to samples of another's recording in my studio without expressed permission.

This cannot be overstated.

I, as a producer/engineer, will never play a client's work for anyone unless it's been commercially released or I have explicitly stated permission from the client.

This really is basic 101 stuff. It has nothing to do with who is or isn't getting paid, and everything to do with professionalism/trust.

[creegstor]

Originally Posted by morejaylesswar

How would you handle this situation? Was I in the wrong? I'm all ears because I don't know the proper etiquette. I'd love for some kind of guidance here; being that this is really bothering me.

If you really want the relationship then apologize unreservedly and tell her you only did it out of naivety and without intending any harm. And that it won't happen again. The one thing NOT to do is this: Don't leverage "all you've done" for her against your mistake. One does not balance the other.

[Hardtoe]

Originally Posted by evangelista

This cannot be overstated.

I, as a producer/engineer, will never play a client's work for anyone unless it's been commercially released or I have explicitly stated permission from the client.

This really is basic 101 stuff. It has nothing to do with who is or isn't getting paid, and everything to do with professionalism/trust.

I play stuff I'm working on to to other clients who happen to drop in when I'm mixing someone's work if I think they'll dig it and should be exposed.

I guess this is a bit of a risk, but I use my instincts to decide if it is appropriate.

I would never post someone's material on the net without their permission though (especially unreleased) - it's like "in the public domain" at that point and you can't undo it if someone grabs the song and uses for whatever purpose the artist did not intend.

[DaveE]

Communication is important. You didn't write the song so you need to ask for permission first. Showing a song to a colleague in the room is one thing, but posting it on the net without permission is not cool, even if you did work for free (unless it was agreed to beforehand). If you wrote the entire song yourself that would be a different story. It's so easy to ask, so just do it: "Can I put this on my website?"<-see how easy that was?

[morejaylesswar]

I completely understand what everyone is saying.

I did not intend to "leak" the song or make it available to the general public.

My mindset was that this a mutually beneficial record. I hit her up to record her record. My message to her stated. "Hey, how are you? I was wondering when the next time you were free. I'm interested in recording you. I'm looking for new artists and new genres to record. I need to expand. So if you're interested, let me know when you're free."

My mistake was not expressing that I wanted to be able to use this as a way to help her and advance my own career. I didn't feel like that she hired me as an engineer, moreso that I was looking to record her music for my own portfolio. I should have made it clearer what my intentions were to begin with.

Amateur mistake that definitely won't happen again... If we work together in the future, it will be a client-based relationship. I don't want to blur those lines again.

I mean, I'm a musician myself... I can see both sides. Especially being relatively in the same spot as she is in her career as an artist.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by morejaylesswar

I didn't feel like that she hired me as an engineer, moreso that I was looking to record her music for my own portfolio. I should have made it clearer what my intentions were to begin with.

The thing is you sometimes have to be patient.
I've only been able to promote my involvement in some projects six months later, when they are finally released.
But it doesn't matter, because if their is a buzz about the track, you'll benefit.
But you jumped the gun, and didn't consult the artist.
Another thing.......
I really wouldn't be happy if I found out you'd talked about all this once again in public. Which includes repeating private messages from the artist, and the name of the song, unless you changed it.
I would delete the whole thread if I was you.
No one likes to be talked about behind their back. Less so in full public view.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

... and if really good, who knows, it could spread like wildfire. ....

That is actually a supremely idealistic best case scenario, but you offer it as some kind of worst case....?

Is this the kind of thread and issue and conundrum that always gets me thinking in rhetorical questions?

Is is really truly conceivable that the artist would, given this *again gloriously unlikely* circumstance, a song sent around without her permission that has spread like wildfire, turn to the spreading party and say, "Dumbkopf! That's not what the first single was supposed to be!"?

Attention is the new coin of the realm, that's what I'm seeing when I look around... the over-riding danger for the modern musician is not exactly having to deal with too much of it, put it that way?

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

That is actually a supremely idealistic best case scenario, but you offer it as some kind of worst case....?

It's incredibly simple and basic Joel.
The artist had no idea that the track was going to be placed onto a public part of the internet without her permission.
In the many professional studios and offices around the music industry, which is something most people aspire to, it's just not an acceptable thing to do.
It's just that simple.
Quite honestly I wouldn't work anywhere where that was liable to happen.
And if I found out the person i disagreed with aired that disagreement on a very well known music forum I'd be deeply unimpressed and telling everyone I knew to give them a wide berth.
jay seems like a nice guy and good at what he does. So let's hopefully put this down to a lesson in life.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

Yes, well it spreads like wildfire and the artist actually had dreams of selling the music. Oh well.

Once it has spread like wildfire, the artist is in a position to sell it-- place it with some media entity that would buy it, for instance.

Or perhaps notify the wildfire-ees of where she'll be performing this song, live in concert and they can come see it.

I'm sorry-- there is no connection between "unknown nobody suddenly has a song that's gone viral" and "unfortunate case, ruined opportunity, greatly to be regretted."

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by chrisso

...
Quite honestly ...

Chris, I think we are looking at the issue from opposite sides of the barricade.

If I had to describe the overwhelming obstacle facing anyone who has dreams of 'becoming known' to the public beyond their zip code, it's the nearly impenetrable indifference of the wider world.

EVERYONE conspires to keep it this way-- most certainly the 'irreproachably respectable' studios, first and foremost. They and their ilk are never going to take the initiative to spread the word about someone, on their own? Not on your life, it's not professional, it's just not done, and it would be a damn nuisance.

Coincidentally, this feeds the artist's vision of themself as special, a valuable commodity that's not to be trifled with, but at the same time a gold mine waiting to happen. But on their terms!

You want a hostage to fortune? This girl will never get anywhere. And this prediction is solely based on the odds-- because that's doubtlessly what the odds are.

You are utterly right, technically, ethically, every which way, but I am right in this: without taking chances, without a few end runs around the odds, without people using a little imagination, without some daring-do and a few crossed swords... how to get anywhere? Hoarding things and cloistering them? Best of luck.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

What about posting clips of songs without posting the whole thing?

Sure-- that's an elegant compromise if the engineer strictly wanted to display his abilities-- "you see how the guitars and the voice is blended, here? Nice, huh?"

Unless the listener made the snap judgement that the posting was inept, only clips of the song got through-- is that the kind of engineer I want to work with? Someone who doesn't even know how to post a damn song? What messageboard is he on, again???

[TRJanuary]

Originally Posted by morejaylesswar

So, by whatever miraculous way she found the song posted to my portfolio.....

You sound like a good guy, and I am sorry for your trouble, but that comment above might be one of the most naive things I have ever read on the internets.

1. search engines spend billions to find new technology for finding ANYTHING
2. search engines are getting faster
3. "artists" like to "ego-search" themselves in their spare time
4. she might be researching the song title in preparation for her copyright submission, and was BOUND to find it.

IF YOU PUT IT ON THE INTERNET IT WILL BE FOUND
COUNT ON IT

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Hoarding things and cloistering them? Best of luck.

What about choosing when to release them when you* are ready to (the *artist)?
I really think you are going off on a wild tangent on this.
Who says the girl wont be posting the song all over the web when she is ready? And telling everyone what a great job Jay did.
She just didn't want to be excluded from that decision.

[DSK]

Threads like this one is the reason I joined Gearslutz!

There are some seriously intersting POV's regarding the matter.

One thing should stick:

In any collaboration be as transparent as you can and be sure to inform the partner of your intentions.


She is 100% correct. Your attitude seemes quite mature but still you were a bit presumptious about the whole deal. This was a mistake and you should try to fix it somehow.

You kinda took too much property over the recording.

In the worst case you should have used the private function soundcloud has.
...and just a snippet.

Regardless I wish you good luck and congrats on having a good attitude!
Look at it as yet another step towards your fulfillment.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by chrisso

...
I really think you are going off on a wild tangent on this.
...

Wouldn't that actually make the better story, though?

"She didn't want anyone to hear it!" Isn't that exactly the SAME story I heard vis-a-vis the Dire Straits breakthrough hit "Sultans of Swing"? "We just gave it to a friend of ours to listen to, we didn't expect anyone to play it," only the friend was a DJ on the local radio station, worked it into the rotation, boom you got Dire Straits. [I personally thought the story, at the time, was a load of heavy-handed promotional propaganda, but it did indeed have the right ring to it-- struggling innocents, just guys.]

In fact, who is going to seize on this archetype of the moment-- "didn't want anyone to hear it, it wasn't ready....

If not Jay... who, then?

[morejaylesswar]

I am fuming about this situation. I don't know, man. I have to get used to people's personalities. Now, I wouldn't normally vent in such a public forum, but I don't have anyone else that I can "talk shop" with in my personal life, aside from the two engineers that I've had the privilege of working for. I don't want to bother them with my petty amateur mess. Hell, I'm still trying to prove to them that I am worthy of their help these days.

I don't even know how to candidly speak about anything anymore because I'm always so focused on not insulting anyone or coming off as a prick. It is important for me now, more than ever, to shape people's first impressions and opinions of me. The relationships I build today will be the building blocks for my future endeavors. I may make new contacts and things like that, but I don't want a reputation of me being hard to work with to proceed any real interactions that I make with people. With that in mind, I just just back and bite my tongue.

Well, the artist emailed and texted me ordering me to remove the song by the end of day. Which, I have had no issues with. I actually thought I cleared it out, being that I posted three versions. The last versions stayed, and that was my mistake. I should've checked back; but I hardly use my portfolio SoundCloud. She then ended her email with "I thought you more professional than this." and that, above all, really got to me. I've done nothing but remained calm, courteous, and understanding of what she's asked of me. I put forth my best work on something that I thought I was working on for a friend. I've gone above and beyond all professional obligations for this artist and it really irks me that she would say that. I need a thicker skin because I'm certain that I will hear worse than that henceforth in my career.

I've done a lot of things for people so far. Everyone that I've worked with has been more than grateful to me because they know and understand what I've done for them and I am absolutely grateful to them for allowing me to learn with them. It's been a fast paced year and a half and I've learned a lot with my clients. A few of them have even become good friends of mine. I have a guy right now that I've been working with for over a year. He's going places and he texted me to tell me thanks. He feels that if it weren't for what he recorded with me here that he wouldn't be in the position he's in right now. I don't feel that way. I think he's where he is because of his hardwork and talent... And it's actually the exact opposite. If he didn't record with me, then I wouldn't know anything. He was a consistent client who I was able to learn with and practice on his songs. We had a mutual understanding, and he even paid! LOL! I needed the money then. I thought that I was starting that with her, but from a different genre. It just didn't work out like that.

I'm just venting right now... a bit bothered by this whole situation. It'll blow over, I'm certain. It's honestly not worth it. We take hits and we move forward. I guess that first hit is always the hardest.

[joelpatterson]

I hate to break it to you, but she will hardly be the last person to slather this kind of "I went to all the trouble of descending from my perch in the clouds to bless you with my presence, and THIS is what you do to me???" attitude.

Rather than something reasonable, like, "Thanks for your help, thanks for believing in me, glad to have you on my team!"

Still, the only possible response to your situation is to bite your tongue and bide your time. The one upside? These all make GREAT stories to tell later.