I need your advice. [LENGTHY]

[morejaylesswar]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

Then she's right to be angry.

I'm not doubting that. I absolutely understand where she's coming from, you know? That's nothing something that I'm in denial about. LOL! I should've been like "holy shit! how dare you get upset at my awesome talents?! THE WORLD HEARD YOUR SONG!" Kidding, of course.

I just needed a place to really say everything that I wanted. I think even when we realize our faults that we still have to find a medium to clear it all out before we can move on. At least I do. This is why I write...

There is something that still bothers me about this situation, but I'd rather keep that to myself or speak to someone personally about that to see how to move past that. Nothing that I need to be blasting out looking for some sort of validation on... Not saying that my previous post was that either.

[morejaylesswar]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

I hate to break it to you, but she will hardly be the last person to slather this kind of "I went to all the trouble of descending from my perch in the clouds to bless you with my presence, and THIS is what you do to me???" attitude.

Rather than something reasonable, like, "Thanks for your help, thanks for believing in me, glad to have you on my team!"

Still, the only possible response to your situation is to bite your tongue and bide your time. The one upside? These all make GREAT stories to tell later.

And that's what I have to get used to! That exact thing! Not saying that she's like that, but I'm pretty sure I'll run across people like that, rather than the people who say "Hey, thanks! I appreciate what you did; but I want to wait to release the song. Can you remove it?" I think the way she said it was off-putting for me. I took it personal and that's my fault.

I've been sitting down trying to figure out what was up with me and I think it's because I got emotionally attached to her song. I REALLY wanted this one to be good because it was my first time putting all of my new knowledge to the test. I worked 4 hours straight with editing and another 14 hours mixing the record... and another 4 or 5 with revising and automation. I wanted this to be perfect for her and for myself. I looked at it as my baby, just as well as hers. I mean, I was so proud of this mix that I even let my mom hear it! LOL!

I just gotta leave that stuff out and do my job.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by morejaylesswar

...

I just gotta leave that stuff out and do my job.

Not at all, it's your emotional involvement that MAKES the thing worth listening to. Deep dark secret of the whole biz: the difference between some kind of "pro forma recording" that's like you just threw up the faders and printed it, versus a compelling, involving, gripping listening experience that shakes your average listener to the core? Answer: the engineer feels the need to explore every possible angle in an attempt to create the lushest, most timeless thing possible from the materials at hand.

So, a good proportion of the time you're working "for" the ultimate listener, the target audience, those strangers out there who you'll never know, and working "past" the artist in your presence who can be clueless about much or most of these aspects. Eh... in any case, it beats having a job, I say.

[morejaylesswar]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Not at all, it's your emotional involvement that MAKES the thing worth listening to. Deep dark secret of the whole biz: the difference between some kind of "pro forma recording" that's like you just threw up the faders and printed it, versus a compelling, involving, gripping listening experience that shakes your average listener to the core? Answer: the engineer feels the need to explore every possible angle in an attempt to create the lushest, most timeless thing possible from the materials at hand.

So, a good proportion of the time you're working "for" the ultimate listener, the target audience, those strangers out there who you'll never know, and working "past" the artist in your presence who can be clueless about much or most of these aspects. Eh... in any case, it beats having a job, I say.

You're right. For most of my life listening to music, I never thought about the engineer. Frankly, I just didn't know what it took. I listen to a song now and I am so amazed at what some of thee guys do.

Rihanna's song "Where Have You Been" for example. I absolutely love that mix. The S's are so soft and subtle. The stuff that is done with her vocals to work with the beat is gorgeous. The reverbs and delays between the empty spots make it worth listening to. I mix to give my listener this same feeling. They may not know why like I know, but I feel so good about the sound of this record and it's because of the subtle MOUNTAINS that were done with this record. As well as her performance, of course... But I doubt that this song would be this good without the mix.

I just want to say thank you to the producer, engineers, and musicians that worked on that song. By far one of my favorite mixes of last year.

[metrosonus]

She then ended her email with "I thought you more professional than this." and that, above all, really got to me. I've done nothing but remained calm, courteous, and understanding of what she's asked of me

well, here's what I see..

You picked the girl up from home to go to recording sessions and dropped her off. That's a huge red flag. You're already (or were) too emotionally involved in what you're doing.

In being so committed to the project, you've assumed more ownership of the work involved and upset this person. I know that's already been discussed, but it's an important point to reiterate.

From your point of view, I don't blame you and I don't think anyone else is. You put in long hours for free and even gave this girl rides, so you feel entitled to at least throw it into your brag book. We're cool with that.

The issue is (and I'm reiterating again) is that you lacked a contract or agreement with this person. This can be a good learning experience for you in recognizing the importance of "get it in writing first". Having a protocol or agreement can protect you from situations such as these.

On her part, if you did what she asked, I would think she would be happy. Take the track sdown, apologize etc. How many people viewed it? 2-3? And I bet they were friends of yours? She should be happy. But the reason I think she isn't is that she's also emotionally over involved. I'm assuming she's younger(ish), she's getting rides to and from a studio, free recording time and you're surprised she's throwing a drama queen attitude?

You need to take control of the situation at this point. Say "Look, here was your criteria to fix the situation, I did all that. I said I'm sorry, I got over excited and I was proud of you and I was proud of me and the work we had been doing. What can we do to move forward?"

If she wants to, nail out an an agreement that gives you some cred but is also flexible to accommodate her needs and wants. Completely by virtue she's going to have the underhand unless you want to play it with an iron fist and eventually find someone that will cower under it and I don't think you do.

And if not, you need to be prepared to walk away. That's something you need to be prepared for at any moment. Things can and do get out of hand and that's why you need an agreement of some sort to outline the details.

If you truly believe in yourself, you can and will make the most out of every opportunity that comes your way. But you have to know where and when your obligation ends. And hey, if you don't get this one, you'll get another.

[morejaylesswar]

Originally Posted by metrosonus

well, here's what I see..

You picked the girl up from home to go to recording sessions and dropped her off. That's a huge red flag. You're already (or were) too emotionally involved in what you're doing.

In being so committed to the project, you've assumed more ownership of the work involved and upset this person. I know that's already been discussed, but it's an important point to reiterate.

From your point of view, I don't blame you and I don't think anyone else is. You put in long hours for free and even gave this girl rides, so you feel entitled to at least throw it into your brag book. We're cool with that.

The issue is (and I'm reiterating again) is that you lacked a contract or agreement with this person. This can be a good learning experience for you in recognizing the importance of "get it in writing first". Having a protocol or agreement can protect you from situations such as these.

On her part, if you did what she asked, I would think she would be happy. Take the track sdown, apologize etc. How many people viewed it? 2-3? And I bet they were friends of yours? She should be happy. But the reason I think she isn't is that she's also emotionally over involved. I'm assuming she's younger(ish), she's getting rides to and from a studio, free recording time and you're surprised she's throwing a drama queen attitude?

You need to take control of the situation at this point. Say "Look, here was your criteria to fix the situation, I did all that. I said I'm sorry, I got over excited and I was proud of you and I was proud of me and the work we had been doing. What can we do to move forward?"

If she wants to, nail out an an agreement that gives you some cred but is also flexible to accommodate her needs and wants. Completely by virtue she's going to have the underhand unless you want to play it with an iron fist and eventually find someone that will cower under it and I don't think you do.

And if not, you need to be prepared to walk away. That's something you need to be prepared for at any moment. Things can and do get out of hand and that's why you need an agreement of some sort to outline the details.

If you truly believe in yourself, you can and will make the most out of every opportunity that comes your way. But you have to know where and when your obligation ends. And hey, if you don't get this one, you'll get another.

Thank you.

I appreciate everything that you just said here. I will use this (as well as what everyone else said) moving forward. I am confident that I've completed what she needed with the mix; however, with a second thought, I am regretful for putting the song in my portfolio after seeing what transpired.

She's a talented artist with a huge voice. I would love to work with her again, but this time under the confines of a professional relationship with everything in writing, even if the work is for free. I don't mind recording her for free because she's really talented and her song pushed me into a more creative space when mixing; but I will not go above and beyond that.

I have to do a bit more research on how engineers are paid and credited, so I will know for the next time. I keep hearing that I'm selling myself short with how I'm charging and what I'm doing for that price...

[metrosonus]

but I will not go above and beyond that

that's one of the harder things to learn when you've got ambition and passion. the trick is to learn to focus that within the confines of an agreement.

you're right though, you've gotten valuable experience and helped someone out, so it wasn't totally for free. you sound like you've got a good head and a good soul so keep it up.

and also be thankful it didn't get worse. there could have easily been a dad or a boyfriend involved that could have put you through some hurt.

and not to mention, i just read another thread in here where a guy did a session as a favor for one of his friends and someone literally pooped on the floor.

[JoRillo]

Originally Posted by metrosonus

I just read another thread in here where a guy did a session as a favor for one of his friends and someone literally pooped on the floor.

[scruffydog]

If it was her song...i mean 'lyric and melody'.....then she is correct to remonstrate with you over you putting it out there.
Get over it.....it's not YOU she's worried about...but all those other buggers that might rip her off.
Stop moaning and move on......i feel sure you will live to fight again!
Admit your mistake and don't make a bad situation worse.
Let her protest....respect her wishes....take a deep deep breath and move on...NOW!

[MoneySound]

I think what's being missed here is that the danger is not having that particular recording go viral, its someone stealing her killer hook and melody and releasing it as their own. She probably can't afford a lawyer to start suing people at this point in her career. Which is good for you because guess who would be named in the lawsuit?
Though I feel for you in this situation, Jay, I agree that it was a big faux pas. The fact that you donated your services is really sort of irrelevant. You take the risk of not getting your due in that situation. Good luck.

[themixtape]

I agree with everyone here... you needed to get permission. 3 fans or 10-20 plays is irrelevant. One person could hear it and steal it. Just one person. And then she would lose her original piece.

Build up your portfolio with only consented, and FINISHED works.

Best of luck.

[Johntron512]

Originally Posted by morejaylesswar

I don't even know how to candidly speak about anything anymore because I'm always so focused on not insulting anyone or coming off as a prick. It is important for me now, more than ever, to shape people's first impressions and opinions of me. The relationships I build today will be the building blocks for my future endeavors. I may make new contacts and things like that, but I don't want a reputation of me being hard to work with to proceed any real interactions that I make with people. With that in mind, I just just back and bite my tongue.

She then ended her email with "I thought you more professional than this." and that, above all, really got to me. I've done nothing but remained calm, courteous, and understanding of what she's asked of me. I put forth my best work on something that I thought I was working on for a friend. I've gone above and beyond all professional obligations for this artist and it really irks me that she would say that. I need a thicker skin because I'm certain that I will hear worse than that henceforth in my career.

This bothering you just shows you care. Learn from it and move on. If you wish to save a healthy working relationship with her, simply get a face-to-face and apologize and claim full oversight of the mistake. Do NOT try this over the internet or voicemail.

I've been working in design and marketing for a long time now and what I've learned is even the clients you think love you the most can pull the rug out from under you one day. In the end many clients just "want what they want", regardless of reason. You have to make this about business if you want to make money, and you WILL encounter hideous personalities and the wildest of expectations (not saying this woman is that). Part of serving clients will be improving your ability to manage those expectations and live up to your promises.

After a while, you can get so good at steering people to do the right thing, or to stop asking for ridiculous things, that it doesn't feel much different than manipulating them. But you have to always be willing to be wrong and admit it. No one knows everything, and we're all human.

Also, you mention worrying about your rep and future, which is valid, but remember, you don't want to spend your life bending to the wills of people who don't deserve it. Be careful about avoiding being honest or candid with people, it just serves to delay the inevitable. If you can figure out how to express your disagreements and concerns with people, without making them feel threatened or dumb, they WILL respect you for it.

[faramita]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Well, yeah, but just to offer a contrarian viewpoint, I would say this girl's proper response would be to be OVERJOYED that you (1) worked on producing her music for not one single goddam dime, and (2) thought enough of it to try to get some attention for it-- admittedly, not whole-hoggedly getting attention like buying a full page ad in Rolling Stone.

While everyone is "right" (ask permission, get permission, grovel and plead and beg for permission), the sad and unfortunate and universal truth which I have experienced over and over again and again is that the artist generally and always is way, way too, too "protective" of their work, and twin that with a preposterously unrealistic attitude: once the world is exposed to it, all in good time, the world will do double back flips, seize on it, treasure it and take it into its heart. All in all, a great formula to guarantee obscurity.

"This isn't going to be my first single." Hooooooooooooo-boy....

I am with Joel on this one.
Ok, you should have told her, but your response to her complains was curteous and lot more polite than she is going get in some parts of music business. Since she did not pay you, mix is technically yours, (so my lawyer said a while ago). All this is just a moot point these days, everything is on the internet for free somewhere, as soon as you sell one record and sometimes before, believe me. And yes, she should grow up into the real world, ANY kind of exposure is a godsend these days, even if it is "only" soundcloud.