Bad Clients, help!!??!!

[DaveRamm]

I am honestly at boiling point with a couple of "potential" clients at the moment....
I am a mixing engineer and have been mixing bands and artists for the last 7 years... just decided to start making money off it in the last 2 months... and as a standard with my mixing service I offer a free sample so the client can test my ability.
The problem is...
Recently I have had a couple of D**KH***S that are all for free samples (only sending aprox 20sec clips back) they claim that the work is excellent and have nothing but good things to say... along with words to the effect of:

"Just have to wait on my cheque clearing"
or
"Ill send you some work through next week"

then I get... "what are your rates again"

To which they are seem extremely pleased that i am not expensive...
I've been a hobbiest and in full time employment for a long time with not overhead costs applied to my mixing I am extremely afordable. $30 per mix (flat rate).

After this final convosation... and by that I DO mean final, they are never to be heard from again.

WTF!!! Im honestly close to blowing up on these time wasters...

any advice on how to improve matters would be appriciated.

[chrisso]

Time wasters are a fact of life.
If it's too annoying......
Don't offer free samples, instead offer examples of your past work.
Increase your prices so you immediately put off dreamers.

[DaveRamm]

Originally Posted by chrisso

Time wasters are a fact of life.
If it's too annoying......
Don't offer free samples, instead offer examples of your past work.
Increase your prices so you immediately put off dreamers.

too true.
yes. Im considering stoping the free samples.

Thanks Chrisso

[daveconn]

Hey Dave, used to get this a lot..I refer to them as "flirters". Just treat everyone that makes contact with you as if they're coming walking into your virtual shop, they have a look around, may enquire about this and that but may walk out with nothing. Think the recommendation of stopping the free samples may be a good idea but I think this may discourage serious potential clients. I think the assumption that all clients are going to be annoying in some way eliminates some of the shock when they are, and leaves you with a pleasant surprise if they're actually nice!

[ivmike]

Perhaps you could host your sample clips on a site like ReverbNation and direct some of these "lookie-loos" to the site (via your email signature) so that they can play the samples to their heart's content without wasting time.

And the idea of raising your price is also a good idea.

Good luck; they drive me nuts too!

[Mr. Shore]

Increase your rates from $30 to $300 per mix.

[Beat Poet]

Originally Posted by DaveRamm

any advice on how to improve matters would be appriciated.

Aside from raising your prices and discarding the free demos, I think you'll just have to accept that there will be timewasters around and especially when you're starting out. Demos which amount to nothing and people "disappearing" is all part of the game at a low level (well even at a high level as well I'm sure some on here will say).

I'd suggest to keep at it like you are for a bit longer and see what happens. Who knows, maybe even a plush website could turn the chancers away?

[jonathan jetter]

raise your rates.

only provide free samples on a selective basis (to, say, a very promising young band, who really might not know what they're looking for from a mix, but who may have a future career ahead of them)

[3rd Degree]

It's funny because people made up the term "spec mixing" to sound professional and made this a standard thing (I understand what "spec" is and I just don't think it applies to regular people seeking out services as the term would normally apply). So 1 "spec mix" can be kind of the standard for a newer engineer.


I honestly am not a fan of someone who pushes the "I will mix one song for free" thing, mostly because I have had bad luck. I often get referred to people who do a free mix because their clients enjoy listening before paying. On my side, I find that engineers who have the ability to mix a song for free often are not working with. That doesn't mean I haven't spent my own money figuring it out, it's just one of those business models where someone thought it will help them, and then everyone else followed, making it relatively standard people starting out.



I would start on the point of don't do free mixing for people who only want a song or two mixed. I don't know if you are doing local stuff or online but only do a free mix (only if you feel you have to) for people who are bringing you an entire album/ep/project to mix.

I would think about skipping free stuff all together. Only offer it if you will loose a valuable client or you feel it needs to happen to make money.

Being cheap isn't always the easiest route either. Being cheap often times means you end up around people who really can't afford you being cheap, but they can afford your rates compared to not having it done. I cannot tell you how many musicians I know who appreciate things like payment plans and the like, not because it helps them with cash flow, it is they only way they know how to do things.

[evilpeezy]

maybe they browsed multiple mixers, and like your mix along with others and chose to use somebody else instead Thats like calling geico to get a insurance quote and liking th rates but then last minute decide to go with allstate last minute. Not really your client if you havent done any work. Don't really know what the moan is unless you completed work and giving them a sample of their work their suppose to pay. I might me misunderstanding. Did they actually hire you or did you do some sample mixes for them which was agreed upon before payment?

[evangelista]

I've done the following a couple of times for full-album mix projects which I really wanted (not spec, but offers a nice "trial" scenario):

- I mix the first song, keeping track of the time spent (of course)

- client comes over and listens. If they don't like it, they owe me nothing, we're still friends, they go somewhere else (this has never happened, fwiw)

- if they like it enough to take a ref home to consider further changes, or want to tweak on the spot, they pay for all the time I spent up to that point and we continue. But nothing ever leaves the studio without the bill being settled.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by 3rd Degree

It's funny because people made up the term "spec mixing" to sound professional and made this a standard thing (I understand what "spec" is and I just don't think it applies to regular people seeking out services as the term would normally apply). So 1 "spec mix" can be kind of the standard for a newer engineer.

I think you're implying it and understand what it really means, but it might be confusing to some, that "spec mixing" is not mixing one thing for free. Mixing something on spec is "if you like you pay - if not, you don't get to use it". I often do first song "on spec" - most of the time that turns into the full thing, a couple of times it hasn't. No worries. The only time I've done something for free recently was when I really liked the band.

to the OP:

20secs is too short for a preview mix. Minute minimum.

$30 is too cheap to charge. Either charge a proper rate, or don't bother charging. $30 cheapens you and everybody else - you'll get bottomfeeders who think they're entitled to mess you around because they're "paying you", and also make some think it's the going rate for ability.

[3rd Degree]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

I think you're implying it and understand what it really means, but it might be confusing to some, that "spec mixing" is not mixing one thing for free. Mixing something on spec is "if you like you pay - if not, you don't get to use it". I often do first song "on spec" - most of the time that turns into the full thing, a couple of times it hasn't. No worries. The only time I've done something for free recently was when I really liked the band.

Rereading what I said, I overstated my point. I understand that it is not getting something mixed for free, it is getting something mixed and if you like it, you pay for that song, and the other songs on your album to get mixed.

I am actually going through the process right now and what "spec mix" tends to mean is they will mix one full song, but you are not allowed to listen to it on anything but their mains. No testing it in your car, no bringing it home to your listening system. Basically, you get to hear it on the speakers it was mixed on. That is my issue, that I should have stated more clearly, with people in my area calling it "spec", I can't even make a decision on that lol.

[evilpeezy]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

I think you're implying it and understand what it really means, but it might be confusing to some, that "spec mixing" is not mixing one thing for free. Mixing something on spec is "if you like you pay - if not, you don't get to use it". I often do first song "on spec" - most of the time that turns into the full thing, a couple of times it hasn't. No worries. The only time I've done something for free recently was when I really liked the band.

to the OP:

20secs is too short for a preview mix. Minute minimum.

$30 is too cheap to charge. Either charge a proper rate, or don't bother charging. $30 cheapens you and everybody else - you'll get bottomfeeders who think they're entitled to mess you around because they're "paying you", and also make some think it's the going rate for ability.

30 dollars is cheap, but its waaaaaay better then free, atleast hes not working for free. i'd rather do 15 people a month for 30 dollars then 2 people a month at 75.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by DaveRamm

I am extremely afordable.$30 per mix (flat rate).

If you're charging that I hope you're spitting out 7-10 mixes a day... otherwise plan on a fun filled life of Kraft Macaroni and Cheese... with the possible cheeseburger on Sundays...

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by 3rd Degree

Rereading what I said, I overstated my point. I understand that it is not getting something mixed for free, it is getting something mixed and if you like it, you pay for that song, and the other songs on your album to get mixed.

I am actually going through the process right now and what "spec mix" tends to mean is they will mix one full song, but you are not allowed to listen to it on anything but their mains. No testing it in your car, no bringing it home to your listening system. Basically, you get to hear it on the speakers it was mixed on. That is my issue, that I should have stated more clearly, with people in my area calling it "spec", I can't even make a decision on that lol.

As I said, I know YOU know what it means - it was just stated a bit confusingly!

That's a kind of weird way of doing stuff "on spec" though. Bit difficult to do if you're working remotely!

Originally Posted by evilpeezy

30 dollars is cheap, but its waaaaaay better then free, atleast hes not working for free. i'd rather do 15 people a month for 30 dollars then 2 people a month at 75.

I strongly disagree. I think the cheaper you work, the worse it is for you. You get messed around more, and less quality to work with.

If all you can get is people willing to pay $30/track, you probably shouldn't charge at all.

I'd rather do less work at higher rates, and spend the rest of the time working for free on things I want to work on, than work on crap projects for budget rates.

Working for free is better than working for unrealistic rates. I'd rather work for free than work for $3/hr which is what a $30/mix should amount to, if you're putting the work in.

[Duardo]

If you're charging that I hope you're spitting out 7-10 mixes a day... otherwise plan on a fun filled life of Kraft Macaroni and Cheese...

Kraft is the good stuff...I'd imagine it would be the generic stuff you'd be eating. That and Ramen noodles.

Although my kids do also like Meijer's macaroni and cheese specifically...odd.