Anyone else miffed by the "Pluging Alliance"

[mrbibidy]

First off if you dont know what the Plugin Alliance is its basically a conglomerate of European plugin companies. You can google them. I just found out from a dealer friend that the respective companies pulled their ties will all dealers and are doing business through the Plugin Alliance only. So, because I was in the market for an SPL plug I wandered over there. To my dismay, what once was a $149 (street) plugin which I could get for $115-$120 through a dealer is now $199... This isn't the first time I've seen a European software company get greedy and ignore their customers... ::cough::celemony::cough::

I'm so pissed by the whole principle of them leaving their dealers who offered great customer service and great deals to basically monopolize their plugins and jack up the prices!

Currently I don't use/need any of their plugins and my clients are more than stoked on my results.. I am quite comfortable never buying their product until they make an effort to get my business by at least reflecting the odd street prices or offering better.

I could rant and rave all day but I am just one person... I was just curious to see if this pissed off anyone else... There's a ton of 'slutz out there and if enough of us are annoyed by corporate manhandling we could send a message.

Thoughts?

[The Byre]

Just use hardware. At least that's worth something. SW ain't worth spit, once you've bought it!

[mrbibidy]

Originally Posted by The Byre

Just use hardware. At least that's worth something. SW ain't worth spit, once you've bought it!

Here here!! Amen to that!! yep, thats the plan

[Bullseye]

Software is fine. Monopolies aren't.

[HomeProducer]

Originally Posted by The Byre

Just use hardware. At least that's worth something. SW ain't worth spit, once you've bought it!

very clever. And if you can get the job done with software? or you buying things only to sell them later?
See it this way: if you sell your gear for 50% of the price, isn't it likely that you lost more money than
buying plugins which are worth nothing 10 years later?

[joeq]

Originally Posted by mrbibidy

Currently I don't use/need any of their plugins and my clients are more than stoked on my results.. I am quite comfortable never buying their product until they make an effort to get my business by at least reflecting the odd street prices or offering better.

If you want to boycott them, boycott them. If enough people join you, it will work, but remember, if they nearly double their price, they can afford to lose almost half their customers and still make the same money! If they lose less than that, they are ahead.

I could rant and rave all day but I am just one person...

We can can come up with 'arguments' and 'reasons why' these companies would be "better off" lowering their prices or changing their policies, but even if they are reading this thread, the logic of our ideas is not persuasive. Only "voting with your wallet" counts.

As for getting others to join you, consider this: I never heard of this alliance before, nor was I even aware of the "old" prices, so for me if I wanted one of their plugs, my decision would not be based on resentment.

It would only be based on Value for the Money. Is the cost too high? Plenty of plugs cost more than $200. That's what they cost. Now do I still want them? What does it do? How well does it do it? What else is available, and at what price point? That's it.

The fact that other people used to be able to find a dealer with a "street price" does not factor into my decision, because I never shopped these plugs before.

I have no sticker shock, so I am not all fired up for a boycott.

[mrbibidy]

Originally Posted by joeq

If you want to boycott them, boycott them. If enough people join you, it will work, but remember, if they nearly double their price, they can afford to lose almost half their customers and still make the same money! If they lose less than that, they are ahead.





We can can come up with 'arguments' and 'reasons why' these companies would be "better off" lowering their prices or changing their policies, but even if they are reading this thread, the logic of our ideas is not persuasive. Only "voting with your wallet" counts.

As for getting others to join you, consider this: I never heard of this alliance before, nor was I even aware of the "old" prices, so for me if I wanted one of their plugs, my decision would not be based on resentment.

It would only be based on Value for the Money. Is the cost too high? Plenty of plugs cost more than $200. That's what they cost. Now do I still want them? What does it do? How well does it do it? What else is available, and at what price point? That's it.

The fact that other people used to be able to find a dealer with a "street price" does not factor into my decision, because I never shopped these plugs before.

I have no sticker shock, so I am not all fired up for a boycott.

Very great point, love it. And yes the Plugin Alliance is new-ish... Its SPL, Elysia, Brainworx and Vertigo Home - PLUGIN ALLIANCE - ENGLISH

Personally I probably will boycott them just cause I'm tired of these kinds of business practices. And I'm really just a nobody right now, but who knows, one day me or someone who has the same feelings as me might get big and still be as crazy idealistic as me, then our words will have far greater weight ;-) lol In all reality, its their choice as the business owners what to do with their businesses, fair enough, but its also my choice what to do with my money.

[dasnub]

Raising prices collectively is know as COLLUSION and is illegal. This looks to me like a group of companies who are simply agreeing to use a common licensing system, and passing on the cost of that system to the consumer.

There is really no reason to use a dealer with a digital product. It's just a middle man who gets to take some of the profits. Plugins are not like tangible products that need a physical storefront to be sold.

[brainrox]

Guys, I will reply here exactly once, then I am out...

We have lowered prices significantly in 2011 for many SPL, BX and Elysia plugins, and starting the Alliance we have released a new pricelist. Most plugins are now even cheaper than they were in 2011.

The Transient Designer is not one of them, that´s true, but the price has (of course) not doubled now. The price is now the same that UA charges for the UAD version, which is less than the Native version used to be before we lowered the prices last year. No conspiracy here, just a business decision.

The Alliance is NOT "some European companies", although Brainworx, SPL, elysia and Vertigo are on board. Besides Millennia, Charter Oak, Chandler, and Neve Australia, and btw:

The "Plugin Alliance LLC" itself is an American company.

All the companies involved still sell and will sell their hardware through dealers, but we decided to sell directly to customers only with plugins, just like UA and other companies do.

Yes, our plugins still cost money, even though we left the ilok system. We have spent months developing our own license management system and we are still improving and expanding it, so we are still facing costs, of course.

mrbibidy, you already posted on my Facebook site (if I am not mistaken) and I emailed you already. If you don´t like the Alliance, please just stay away. We don´t force you to use, test or buy anything.

Dirk Ulrich.
CEO Plugin Alliance.

[timtoonz]

This "poll" is a joke. The only options are 'I hate them" or "I'm ignorant". Do you perhaps work for FOX News in your spare time?

I'll add my vote for the option that's not on the poll- "I like the Plugin Alliance and plan to support them and their products".

[Jim Williams]

Door #3 for me, I couldn't care less about simulated audio.

All my plugs have real plugs on them.

Plug in's are for guys that prefer plastic blow up dolls...

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by The Byre

Just use hardware. At least that's worth something. SW ain't worth spit, once you've bought it!

Many argue about the worth of software in various contexts -- but it's not really fair to lump all software providers together and then castigate them. (Not that you exactly are, but bear with me.)


Almost all of the software publishers I deal with in both my musical life and my daytime professional life treat their customers with respect -- and if they don't, I don't continue doing business with them. It's that simple.

Now, since I'm in no way informed on the OP's topic, let me just say that I have no position on this 'alliance' -- but the bottom line is that private companies have the right to do business, within the framework of applicable commercial laws, in a fashion that they feel best assures their ability to profit from their work and products and, hopefully, grow or at least sustain their business. As we've seen from some moderately high profile failures, success is, by no means, guaranteed for such companies.

Whether their move is smart or self-defeating will be seen in time.

[timlloyd]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Plug in's are for guys that prefer plastic blow up dolls...

Haha ... you're amusing ... in a kind of, chuckle with eyebrows down and a slight head shake kind of way

[T_R_S]

NO AAX DSP = No sale
I have a few PI already I will just keep using the RTAS versions as they work for me.
I am sorry but I like ilok portability.

[jeremy.c.]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Door #3 for me, I couldn't care less about simulated audio.

All my plugs have real plugs on them.

Plug in's are for guys that prefer plastic blow up dolls...

But you care enough to descend from your mountain to flame everyone else.
Just when I thought the thread wasn't going to sink below the idiotic poll...

[tedpenn]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Door #3 for me, I couldn't care less about simulated audio.

All my plugs have real plugs on them.

Plug in's are for guys that prefer plastic blow up dolls...

Geez Jim, guess you better throw out all your hardware reverbs, delays, harmonizers, and synthesizers.

[omtayslick]

Got an email from "the Alliance" the other day, because I have a Brainworx product. I'm not seeing a problem here. In fact, I'm all for not having to use ilok!

[NotchontheRocks]

I have no opinion on the matter, but this one threw me for a loop...

Originally Posted by brainrox

.

mrbibidy, you already posted on my Facebook site (if I am not mistaken) and I emailed you already. If you don´t like the Alliance, please just stay away. We don´t force you to use, test or buy anything.

Dirk Ulrich.
CEO Plugin Alliance.

The internet will be filled with naysayers on every subject, company, organization, etc. Companies usually ignore it unless there is a glaring, fixable problem. The fact that he emailed a disappointed poster on FB is a good thing, but telling someone to "stay away" makes the company seem anything BUT customer-oriented. That's no way to treat a potential customer, even a disgruntled one.

If I was mrbibidy, I'd never purchase from Brainworx again, even if they lowered their prices 80%.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Door #3 for me, I couldn't care less about simulated audio.

All my plugs have real plugs on them.

Plug in's are for guys that prefer plastic blow up dolls...

I fail to see either the relevance of this comment, nor the legitimacy of the analogy.

But to be fair, I'd rather have good sounding plugs than modded slightly less crap cheap gear, so maybe we'll never see eye to eye.

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

I fail to see either the relevance of this comment, nor the legitimacy of the analogy.

But to be fair, I'd rather have good sounding plugs than modded slightly less crap cheap gear, so maybe we'll never see eye to eye.

+ 1

Sorry to be obvious, but I use what sound's good.

[mrbibidy]

Originally Posted by brainrox

Guys, I will reply here exactly once, then I am out...

We have lowered prices significantly in 2011 for many SPL, BX and Elysia plugins, and starting the Alliance we have released a new pricelist. Most plugins are now even cheaper than they were in 2011.

The Transient Designer is not one of them, that´s true, but the price has (of course) not doubled now. The price is now the same that UA charges for the UAD version, which is less than the Native version used to be before we lowered the prices last year. No conspiracy here, just a business decision.

The Alliance is NOT "some European companies", although Brainworx, SPL, elysia and Vertigo are on board. Besides Millennia, Charter Oak, Chandler, and Neve Australia, and btw:

The "Plugin Alliance LLC" itself is an American company.

All the companies involved still sell and will sell their hardware through dealers, but we decided to sell directly to customers only with plugins, just like UA and other companies do.

Yes, our plugins still cost money, even though we left the ilok system. We have spent months developing our own license management system and we are still improving and expanding it, so we are still facing costs, of course.

mrbibidy, you already posted on my Facebook site (if I am not mistaken) and I emailed you already. If you don´t like the Alliance, please just stay away. We don´t force you to use, test or buy anything.

Dirk Ulrich.
CEO Plugin Alliance.

WOW there was actually a bit of cheeky humor hidden in my original post/poll but I guess I struck a nerve...

Its obvious I personally prefer to have a relationship with a dealer who goes out of there way to support the end user... The dealers were my real motivation here, price was a close second. Once I found out that those dealer connections were severed I knew instantly, before even seeing your site, that your prices would be higher. Not cause you revised them but because you have removed variables like purchasing power from the equation. Its the same reason I don't buy direct from a manufacturer, they charge MSRP when we all know street price is always heaps lower.

I did post on your fb, and yes I was a bit miffed I'll admit... But, I did NOT receive any response via email... and actually was notified of a reply on the fb post but to this day "that content is unavailable".

I'm NOT going to organize an public or official 'boycott', frankly I don't have the time.... I will "stay away" but you should understand that on the surface I appear as one person who might not affect your bottom line, but if you knew more about what I do outside of my own humble little studio, my other affiliations and responsibilities (things I don't openly discuss on public forums), you would know that my opinion carries weight in a large portion of your market. Again, let me be clear, I wont be preaching any boycott but there will be a lot of potential buyers who will hear this story when they ask me 'what plugins do you use and what ones don't your use'. This is not a threat, nor will I exaggerate any details to the best of my ability.

Your "stay away" is the embodiment of what drives me mad about at lot of (typically, for some reason, european) software companies. A 'bigger than you' stuck up pompous attitude. I don't buy from celemony anymore because of it and I wont buy from you because of it, even if you lowered your prices 80%. A customer may not be 'right' but they'll keep coming back if the company acts like they are! I know I am not 100% right, I got my facts wrong and spoke out of frustration. But instead of a kind explanation of your point of view, the first response I get is "stay away"... see my point?

[NotchontheRocks]

Your "stay away" is the embodiment of what drives me mad about at lot of (typically, for some reason, european) software companies. A 'bigger than you' stuck up pompous attitude. I don't buy from celemony anymore because of it and I wont buy from you because of it, even if you lowered your prices 80%. A customer may not be 'right' but they'll keep coming back if the company acts like they are! I know I am not 100% right, I got my facts wrong and spoke out of frustration. But instead of a kind explanation of your point of view, the first response I get is "stay away"... see my point?

Yep. Instead of an explanation, you are told to stay away. Oblige.

[passmore]

moving from one copy protection scheme to a different on for every company.
err no thanks been there done that.

[The Byre]

Originally Posted by theblue1

Many argue about the worth of software in various contexts -- but it's not really fair to lump all software providers together and then castigate them. (Not that you exactly are, but bear with me.)

Point taken, but my original point was that firstly you cannot 'buy' software - you buy the right to use software. You are buying a license and no more.

For that reason, buying expensive plugins only makes sense if you can calculate their total lack of residual value. Hardware has nearly always a residual value - i.e. you can sell it on the used equipment market.

If I buy an SPL Transient Designer, I can always sell it again and because it is a much sought after effect, I can always get at least half of my purchase price. The plugin has little or no resale value - especially now that a very similar product is bundled free with Reaper (and possibly other DAWs soon).

All these things will soon be free as the DAW market heats up with the entry of Reaper, Studio One and other products that have remixed the cards. They will seek to bundle as many effects as possible and S1 already has bits of Melodyne, ProTools is now including Autotune and Reaper has just about everything.

Humanity likes to have physical objects - it's just in our nature. That is why the more up-market plugins try to look like the real thing! In EVERY case, where the reproduction of any object such as music, software etc., is every bit as good as the original and indistinguishable from the original, the value of that item tends rapidly towards zero.

[timlloyd]

Originally Posted by mrbibidy

Your "stay away" is the embodiment of what drives me mad about at lot of (typically, for some reason, european) software companies. A 'bigger than you' stuck up pompous attitude. I don't buy from celemony anymore because of it and I wont buy from you because of it, even if you lowered your prices 80%. A customer may not be 'right' but they'll keep coming back if the company acts like they are! I know I am not 100% right, I got my facts wrong and spoke out of frustration. But instead of a kind explanation of your point of view, the first response I get is "stay away"... see my point?

Really?! What is the point in being so voluntarily uppity about it? What Dirk said amounts to "well this is how we've decided to operate, and if you don't like that, then there are other companies that suit you better". Just more concisely.

Fair enough. Get over it

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by timlloyd

Really?! What is the point in being so voluntarily uppity about it? What Dirk said amounts to "well this is how we've decided to operate, and if you don't like that, then there are other companies that suit you better". Just more concisely.

Fair enough. Get over it

No in business diplomacy and good character can make or break a company, If the guy's on the other side sound like people I don't want to deal with, it's simple I won't.

Word's like " Stay Away" are infantile, if he had stated his reason's and said this is how we choose to operate.. Please feel free to add suggestions. Than that's great he doesn't have to listen to these suggestions, but still diplomacy is key.

Plus you never know who is on the other side of that keyboard, it could be the vice president of a large DAW company who could of been wanting to strike a deal with you.

[Animus]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Door #3 for me, I couldn't care less about simulated audio.

All my plugs have real plugs on them.

Plug in's are for guys that prefer plastic blow up dolls...

How's that digital simulated space plugin called Bricasti working out?

[MechanEvil]

Hey, I think that the thread starter needs to get a little bit more of a break from the company for voicing his unhappiness over price rise. I understand that the company must price its products to ensure that the cost of production and marketing is covered. Also, there always is the option of not buying, right?

At the same time, in this day and age of people just stealing anything that can be digitised blindly (no one does that to BMWs and refrigerators) I think mrbibidy should get some slack if he was a little upset. I feel bad about stuff like that all the time. Venting is just human, ay? No need to have that "this is a restaurant where you have to wear a shirt on" kind of attitude, right, I mean, he is willing to pay for software while some people just thrive on pirated stuff.

I've dealt with companies before. I always hope to have a pleasant response and experience. If I don't, as was mentioned, I have the option to just go somewhere else and in this case, mrbibidy, I think no one would have anything to say if you did!

- Reggae Mangle

[Companda]

The plugin alliance doesn't appeal to me but the OP is kicking up a big fuss and acting like a high school kid "I've got big friends and they'll beat you up!".

Let it go - you don't agree with the price, you prefer a middle man, and you want a cheaper transient designer. On the TD, the hardware does sound significantly better so grab 2 channels for double the price, it's hours of fun.

[ionian]

Originally Posted by jeremy.c.

But you care enough to descend from your mountain to flame everyone else.
Just when I thought the thread wasn't going to sink below the idiotic poll...

Ignore him. It's in Jim's best interest people buy hardware so he can "upgrade" it. He makes money fixing what's not broken.

Regards,
Frank