Is There Possibly Existing Secret Misleading of Starters and Home Recordists?

[Ruphus]

It occured a couple of times to me like if certain basics were hardly spread, eventhough everbody in the know would have to be aware of how crucial those can be for to basically achieve desired quality.

Let´s look at the cable matter as it happened to me, and obviously to a huge number of recording freaks too. In fact I expect a good part to be discovering the very issue now, eventhough the least might report back to say any thank you, as we know already about average midget characteristics from the online past.

OK, what is it?

How might many start out about cables?
They want to ensure best audio quality they can afford ( not all, I know a band that does consciously not care about recording quality; but the very most certainly do ), so they seek for good cable quality after a while.

Premanufactured cables however are being priced ridiculously, thus Joe Cableman, provided he knows how to hold an iron, goes out and buys cables and connectors to solder them DIY.

At home then he might wonder how the layout on the 1/4" connectors would be looking like and he googles for it. However, on the internet there seem to float misconceptions about the matter, where it is being explained that the shortest end on the connector was connected to the tip, which IT ISN`T.

So when you run aground on that shit you have your rig all polarity switched.
What you get through that is the typical amateur sound with undefined, dull and muddy, distant and boomy signal. And when you have roughly settled a couple of tracks, as soon as you add a new sound the whole mix gets thrown over again ad nauseum. It leads you to endlessly tweaking your mixes to insanity and still the result won´t ever really please if you listen critically.

I for certain was chasing that ghost for much too long. On my seek fellow engineers and manufacturers definitly adviced me with "check your cables". And I did. Optically. And everything seemd alright.

So, having "checked" them that way I contacted manufacturers to ask whether their gear could be wired wrongly, as I was having "random" phase inversion occurring. There just seemed no way out of the freaking mess.

Then, months ago, I ordered a new bulk of cables and connex to set up a patchbay. However, this time I had a new multimeter in the house and after having soldered the whole cluster It came to my mind to check out the cables with it.

Turned out that I had mixed up plus and minus. Went and checked the old cables, naturally the same conditions.

Recently I met two GS fellas in a pub. Told them of my oddysee and the one of them who has a pro studio was willing to seriously bet on the obviously widely spread misconception. ( He owes me a coffee now. And I guess he will have to resolder his studio wiring, enjoying the new quality.)

The case just came to my mind, so I thought to spare that crap for so many who are going through this mean shit.

Here you see how balanced 1/4" connectors are actually pinned. [ EDIT: Neutriks ]

Cheers,

Ruphus

[Ruphus]

This is how the spread misconception typically looks like:
http://www.vandenhul.com/artpap/wiring.htm

Looks familiar?

PS: Once on the path I found that you can even have prebuild cables wrongly wired as well. Could pay to check each and every of those too. Just in case.

[RainbowStorm]

Originally Posted by Ruphus

This is how the spread misconception typically looks like:
http://www.vandenhul.com/artpap/wiring.htm

Looks familiar?

PS: Once on the path I found that you can even have prebuild cables wrongly wired as well. Could pay to check each and every of those too. Just in case.

I'm sorry, you must have had some pretty bad luck there because this must be pretty unlikely... Thanks for reminding us about this risk...

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by Ruphus

this time I had a new multimeter in the house and after having soldered the whole cluster It came to my mind to check out the cables with it.

Sorry Ruphus, but you are just adding to the confusion.

The one thing that you did do that is correct is quoted above.

The balanced pin-outs you show are only valid if they are related to a SPECIFIC manufacturer. The pin-out that you show as correct is WRONG for Switchcraft connectors. Switchcraft is one of the most common type of connectors used in American studios and are wired like the drawing in your second post (the one that you say is incorrect).
Your post does illustrate what I see as the most common problem in inexperienced people putting a studio together and that is lack of the basic wiring skills and tools like a multimeter.
Glad you sorted it out.
Now, go kick yourself in the ass for making a mess and then pat yourself on the back for eventually figuring a way out of it.
Cheers, Rick

[Albert]

Originally Posted by Ruphus

Is There Possibly Existing Secret Misleading of Starters and Home Recordists?

Why would there need to be deliberate secret misleading of starters and home recordists when they are so easily confused on their own? Add that confusion to an almost pathelogical need to take shortcuts and you have a halloween horror house of mismatched wiring and other fun studio pitfalls.

I fail to find even the tiniest sympathy for anyone that does a few internet searches and then spends time building cables according to specifications they don't understand, which may apply to certain gear and not others, and which may be faulty information to begin with.

There are books on the subject. Well written books by experts that know what they are doing. Buy some books and *understand* what the heck is going on.

The other thing is, buy a cable tester. You could have spared yourself a lot of time and trouble if you had just tested the first cable you made. A cable tester is standard equipment, especially if you are making your own cables.

The other thing to do is buy just *one* pre-made, properly built cable at the store and take it apart to see how it is wired. Then copy the configuration when you make your own. Do this for every different type of cable you need to make.

Sorry for the lack of sympathy, but I really feel you have only yourself to blame for your cabling mess and lost time, not incorrect info found on the internet.

[Ruphus]

Well thanks for the heads up ( except of Alberts obviously biased bullshit ) on the fact that Switchcraft is making their plugs the other way round.



Albert darling,

Apart of the how-one-should-proceed-book-like, consequently any information about soldering your own cable with balanced 1/4" should mention the brand it refers too, instead of presenting a layout like if it were general standard.

Without mentioning the specific differences many people will rely on it and solder wrongly. Like I did, the guy I met lately did, and how guaranteed thousands of people have done.

So, aside from you who admirably has been so smart and square in doing it right, and proudly nasalize it here; you can rely on that a big number of people will be getting aware of the culprit through this very thread and be thankful for it.

Even if only a few might reflect for image reasons. But you bet they´ll be pulling out their soldering irons.

Due to this evil thread. fuuck

And you aware of the brands difference, if only stuffed with the slightest imagination, must have been aware of this generally potential and crucial risk. Have I ever seen you mentioning it to the endless inquiries where people ask about potential reasons for low and muddy signal through their rig?

No?

It didn´t come to your mind, right?
Letting peeps out there in the dark, only coming out to smart ass when someone actually mentions it.

Oh the widgets, they are plenty.


Ruphus

[nathanvacha]

Ruphus, man, you can't go accusing people who know what they're doing of spreading bullshit. He's got a solid point. If you don't understand something, ask. There are people who know, but their business is making records (generality) and not seeking out people who need help making cables.

As far as making cables, whichever brand of t.r.s. ends you're using, the tip is always going to be the tab that is connected to the center of the connector. You can look at the inside and see how the conductors are separated and it's going to go exactly opposite from the end of the plug. The tip tab will be bent in and have a pin that goes through the inside all the way to the end. This is separated from the ring tab which will be next, and the sleeve tab is in no way shielded from the body of the connector... it is directly touching the threads. If you know the anatomy of a plug, you don't have to worry about which tab is which because you can look at it and figure it out.

Also, it doesn't matter if the red wire or blue wire is attached to which pin, as long as it's the same on both ends. If the shield is attached to the "big part", the part where the cable "rests", then as long as the same color wires touch the corresponding posts on both ends, you're not flipping polarity. (I of course don't know what color your conductors are/what brand of cable you're using) But say you have red and blue wires, like one of your diagrams... if the red wire is connected to one pin on one end and the same pin on the other, and the blue wire is connected to the other pin on both plugs, then it doesn't matter which is which, as long as they're the same on both ends... so if you're making a whole cable from scratch, then it doesn't matter if it's like the neutrik or the switchcraft, because it's the same thing only with different colors.
So... if your issue is that the wrong color wire is connected to the wrong pin, then you need to find another source of your problem, because that isn't it. Continuity from one cable to next is the thing that matters. As long as all your cables are done the same, then that's not the source of your problem.

I hope that was thorough enough for you. And by the way, I figured this out by looking at a couple of cables and using common sense, not through a book or the internet or anything. xlr's are a tad more confusing at first, but you'll get used to that, too. -- just don't make it over-complicated, it's really simple. Also, one last well-mannered suggestion: perhaps you should take a little more time writing your posts, I always have a little challenge reading them 'cause it seems you're rushing through or something and they're not worded clearly in parts. Good luck man, you'll get it.-- and I don't think there's any secret policy to keep beginners in the dark, btw.

[max cooper]

Single bullet theory = pin 2 hot.

Y'know, I couldn't tell you how or when I learned which wire goes where, but it was before the internet.

I don't recall getting it wrong, either.

I think this says something about the internet.

Make sure your source has some credibility and make sure you know what you're looking at.

[opentune]

Originally Posted by max cooper

I think this says something about the internet.

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into the internet, the internet gazes also into you.

F. Nietzsche

(sorry for this, today´s a day off...)

[Ruphus]

Originally Posted by nathanvacha

Ruphus, man, you can't go accusing people who know what they're doing of spreading bullshit. He's got a solid point. If you don't understand something, ask. There are people who know, but their business is making records (generality) and not seeking out people who need help making cables.

As far as making cables, whichever brand of t.r.s. ends you're using, the tip is always going to be the tab that is connected to the center of the connector. You can look at the inside and see how the conductors are separated and it's going to go exactly opposite from the end of the plug. The tip tab will be bent in and have a pin that goes through the inside all the way to the end. This is separated from the ring tab which will be next, and the sleeve tab is in no way shielded from the body of the connector... it is directly touching the threads. If you know the anatomy of a plug, you don't have to worry about which tab is which because you can look at it and figure it out.

Also, it doesn't matter if the red wire or blue wire is attached to which pin, as long as it's the same on both ends. If the shield is attached to the "big part", the part where the cable "rests", then as long as the same color wires touch the corresponding posts on both ends, you're not flipping polarity. (I of course don't know what color your conductors are/what brand of cable you're using) But say you have red and blue wires, like one of your diagrams... if the red wire is connected to one pin on one end and the same pin on the other, and the blue wire is connected to the other pin on both plugs, then it doesn't matter which is which, as long as they're the same on both ends... so if you're making a whole cable from scratch, then it doesn't matter if it's like the neutrik or the switchcraft, because it's the same thing only with different colors.
So... if your issue is that the wrong color wire is connected to the wrong pin, then you need to find another source of your problem, because that isn't it. Continuity from one cable to next is the thing that matters. As long as all your cables are done the same, then that's not the source of your problem.

I hope that was thorough enough for you. And by the way, I figured this out by looking at a couple of cables and using common sense, not through a book or the internet or anything. xlr's are a tad more confusing at first, but you'll get used to that, too. -- just don't make it over-complicated, it's really simple. Also, one last well-mannered suggestion: perhaps you should take a little more time writing your posts, I always have a little challenge reading them 'cause it seems you're rushing through or something and they're not worded clearly in parts. Good luck man, you'll get it.-- and I don't think there's any secret policy to keep beginners in the dark, btw.

Thanks for the efforts in kindergarden style, but you seem not to have understood yourself.
The connectors discussed are NOT all made in the same way.

And because they are not made in the same way, if you solder Neutriks while orienting on one of the typical graphis provided out there you will be experiencing phase switch. That is because many of those graphics seem to relate to switchcraft connectors were the soldering points are laid out differently. ( Look at the graphics at the start of the posts.)

Also thanks for trying to explain pin 2 being hot nowadays. You won´t believe it, but this thread isn´t really about total lack of basics. ( Rather than lack of a decent multimeter in the past.)

Hey, the man whom I spoke to and who has his cables wrong for same reason ain´t a newbie either, just as the host out there who will be having the same case.

BTW, I think you should check your cables by all means.

Ruphus

[Ruphus]

Originally Posted by max cooper

Single bullet theory = pin 2 hot.

Err, you have the layout written on the 1/4"s soldering points? ( Which brand is that? )
Also that single bullet theory might fail if you have to connect to either old standard or to one of those companies who still wire pin 3 hot. ;O)

Ruphus

[2leod]

That you would even suggest there are secret forces at work to keep people ignorant of the correct way to solder up a cable boggles my mind.

Face it - you made a silly mistake in assuming that when those on this forum told you first of all to check your cables, they meant look at the solder joints. You don't need a multimeter to check polarity, pull the bulb and battery out of your flashlight, connect them with a few bits of wire to your cable and make the bulb glow with the completed circuit. If it doesn't, something's not right.

[Ruphus]

Accepted, in consideration of the switchcraft drawings.
They are not set up to mislead anyone; I have been wrong with that.

What remains is the fact that I have seen uncounted threads where people asked for possible causes and not once have I seen anyone mentioning the different layout of TRS brands as an option for cause.
- While some must have been aware. As it sounds in this thread at least.

I keep my perspective on that.

Also correct is that the people providing these drawings should point out the different makes. At least those who know about the case.
Because if it is presented like if it was a general standard thousands of users will solder their cables in the wrong way. Seems plausible to me.

Ruphus

[Rick Sutton]

I realize that this info is repititious but it bears repeating.

TO EVERYONE WHO WIRES HIS OWN CABLES: (I know I'm shouting)


BUY A MULTIMETER. THEY CAN BE PURCHASED VERY CHEAPLY. AN ANALOG ONE WITH A NEEDLE INDICATOR IS FINE.

LEARN TO USE IT, IT IS VERY EASY TO USE FOR CONTINUITY TESTS.

A CABLE TESTER IS NOT A VALID SUBSTITUTE, ALTHOUGH A CABLE TESTER IS HANDY AND USEFUL.

DON"T ARGUE.

DO IT.

ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS CHECK EVERY WIRING JOB, ON EVERY CONNECTION WITH IT.

ALSO, ALWAYS READ THE PIN NUMBERS ON XLR CONNECTORS NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU'VE SOLDERED ONE. IT IS TOO EASY TO GET DISORIENTED WHEN WORKING FRONT/BACK ON XLR'S.



Even though I've wired thousands of connections I never trust myself to be perfect so it is also advised to make a quick drawing of the pinouts and work with it in front of you while soldering. I keep most of the common wiring diagrams at my workbench and tape them up in front of me when I've got work to do.
Lot's of tips available, but the main thing is to always double or TRIPLE check your work!

[Ruphus]

Yes.



Ruphus

[2leod]

Originally Posted by Rick Sutton

ALSO, ALWAYS READ THE PIN NUMBERS ON XLR CONNECTORS NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU'VE SOLDERED ONE. IT IS TOO EASY TO GET DISORIENTED WHEN WORKING FRONT/BACK ON XLR'S.

Been there, done that more than a few times!

[Albert]

Originally Posted by Rick Sutton

A CABLE TESTER IS NOT A VALID SUBSTITUTE, ALTHOUGH A CABLE TESTER IS HANDY AND USEFUL.

DON"T ARGUE.

DO IT.

I'm not arguing and I've already done it, but why is a cable tester not a valid substitute for a multimeter when it comes to testing cables? Every cable that checks out okay on my cable tester has checked out okay on the multimeter too.

Originally Posted by ruphus

Albert darling,...

Have I ever seen you mentioning it to the endless inquiries where people ask about potential reasons for low and muddy signal through their rig?

ruphus darling, you made a dumb rookie mistake and now are blaming the internet for it, and me too apparently for not previously enlightening you in posts here. Hilarious.

There's no conspiracy, just one guy lacking a clear concept about how to make cables.

By the way, are you sure you got the cabling correct now? I mean *really* sure? It's so complicated what with Neutrik connectors, Switchcraft connectors, and goodness knows who else makes connectors. What if you are still making your cables wrong, but wrong in a different way? What if those GS'ers you met at the pub were the ones dicking around with you, not the internet diagrams? What if *they* are the conspirators?

[synapse]

Oh Oh...


Someone is going to be facing a serious flogging with 18ga oxygen-free copper wiring at the next hidden conclave meeting for this transgression!
Releasing the innermost secret conspiracy of the secret brotherhood of the AES - For Shame!!


"Nee !!"


Anyone else who may be curious about "the worldwide conspiracy to make your home mixes sound shitty" should simply check with the RANE web site...


http://www.rane.com/note110.html


It has been online in the same spot for years.

LOL!






s



PS for OP: haloperidol and orange juice in the morning starts the day off right!

[nathanvacha]

Originally Posted by Ruphus

Thanks for the efforts in kindergarden style, but you seem not to have understood yourself.
The connectors discussed are NOT all made in the same way....

Oh, for ****'s sake! It sounded like an uneducated question, so I tried to give you the simple answer. A more grown up answer (and less kindergarten) may have been "look at the connectors, and if you have a basic understanding of how electricity flows, you should be able to figure it out. T.R.S. plugs are the easiest thing to solder, i think, that there possibly is."

Originally Posted by Ruphus

...And because they are not made in the same way, if you solder Neutriks while orienting on one of the typical graphis provided out there you will be experiencing phase switch. That is because many of those graphics seem to relate to switchcraft connectors were the soldering points are laid out differently. ( Look at the graphics at the start of the posts.)...

I commented before on the gramatical errors (which aren't fixed, by the way, it's still hard to read your posts), but apparently you're not taking time to read either.

That's not anything like what I said.tutt I didn't say that the brands of ends have their solder tabs lined out in the same way. I'm saying (and we'll go adult again with this one again) "that if you pull your head out of your ass and look at the connector, and still can't figure out which wire goes where, then maybe you're in the wrong line of work"



In the future, if you don't like an answer (or don't understand) simply ignore it, not try to talk down to the people who seem to know more than you. I spent a considerable amount of time answering a question for you, and explained it about as clearly as i would to a kindergardner, and your response is to come back with an insult? fuuck That's rediculous, man.

p.s. -I looked at the link you posted as your example of incorrect wiring before I answered your initial question, and I clicked on the cross-section link to take you to a cable where both ends are t.r.s. and there is nothing wrong with that picture. Read. Write. Spell. then Read again.

[Ruphus]

Albert,

you lack of thinking abilities.

This is not about "a clear concept about how to make cables" as you like to dress it ( BTW, I´d be willing to bet that my soldering technique looks better than yours ), but about the mistake of following advice that is been given like a general standard while it actually is limited to one production.

I can see however that such is being hard for you to understand.
You certainly did the right thing with getting a cable tester. Buying something like it is certainly fine, especially for you who certainly knows from start to better make things lucid.

Originally Posted by synapse

blurb

I´ve been waiting for another conservative bonehead to take the chance and jump in. Enjoy!

Ruphus

[Ruphus]

Originally Posted by nathanvacha

Oh, for ****'s sake! It sounded like an uneducated question, so I tried to give you the simple answer. A more grown up answer (and less kindergarten) may have been "look at the connectors, and if you have a basic understanding of how electricity flows, you should be able to figure it out. T.R.S. plugs are the easiest thing to solder, i think, that there possibly is."






I commented before on the gramatical errors (which aren't fixed, by the way, it's still hard to read your posts), but apparently you're not taking time to read either.

That's not anything like what I said.tutt I didn't say that the brands of ends have their solder tabs lined out in the same way. I'm saying (and we'll go adult again with this one again) "that if you pull your head out of your ass and look at the connector, and still can't figure out which wire goes where, then maybe you're in the wrong line of work"



In the future, if you don't like an answer (or don't understand) simply ignore it, not try to talk down to the people who seem to know more than you. I spent a considerable amount of time answering a question for you, and explained it about as clearly as i would to a kindergardner, and your response is to come back with an insult? fuuck That's rediculous, man.

p.s. -I looked at the link you posted as your example of incorrect wiring before I answered your initial question, and I clicked on the cross-section link to take you to a cable where both ends are t.r.s. and there is nothing wrong with that picture. Read. Write. Spell. then Read again.

What are you blubbering there?
You have obviously never looked into a TRS, certainly no Neutrik.

Stand to your post above. You hadn´t understood anything.
I doubt if you read it all to start with.

Ruphus

[pkautzsch]

There's lots of "dumb rookies" out there, I tend to think.
But...where's the problem?
Same manufacturer for both connectors, same colour to same pin on both connectors, and you're fine. Except, maybe, for XLR to TRS adaptors, but also there: if you flip ALL signals' phase by using the same connector layout, you don't have a problem. And if you DO have a problem: flip the phase in the suspect channel of your DAW, and all problems are gone.

On the highway, you also have to take care not to get into the wrong lane. And in your driving lessons you have learned which lane to use. But no British highway is made to mislead you: it just follows a different set of rules which one ought to understand.
It's all about understanding - and about the ultimate question DOES IT SOUND RIGHT.

[Kiwiburger]

A TRS plug isn't exactly rocket scientology. Even without a multimeter it should be relatively easy to work out which pins are connected to Tip, Ring or Sleeve.

But back the orginal thread title question - is there a mass conspiracy to deceive beginners in recording? I'm convinced there is - but not by the TRS plug makers.

There is so much cheap recording gear available now, and most of it is utter junk, designed to make quick profits out of newbies with no clues. By the time the newbies have figured out they've been diddled, they will have spent all their money on software and toys that will cease to be useable in a few years, and they have to start spending again on the real tools needed.

[Ruphus]

Originally Posted by Kiwiburger

A TRS plug isn't exactly rocket scientology.

No man. I thought there was no way in the world how to find out whether a piece of metal is carrying electricity.

How dumb must someone be when he thinks he could as well just google up the layout? Totally off, isn´t it?
Boy, you must be having fun there!!

Ruphus

[synapse]

Originally Posted by Ruphus

I´ve been waiting for another conservative bonehead to take the chance and jump in. Enjoy!
Ruphus

I am having fun with it and enjoying it...
and I resemble that comment!!

I have some amazing samples of bonehead resonance if you're interested,
(also comes with free connector wiring diagrams)







s

[Albert]

Originally Posted by Ruphus

Then, months ago, I ordered a new bulk of cables and connex to set up a patchbay. However, this time I had a new multimeter in the house and after having soldered the whole cluster It came to my mind to check out the cables with it.

Turned out that I had mixed up plus and minus. Went and checked the old cables, naturally the same conditions.

Back to the beginning, I'm still not sure how you did this. Even if you followed the pinout for Switchcraft connectors but were using Neutrik, it wouldn't have mattered if you had simply connected the same color wire to the same connector on both ends.

So what you are saying is that you connected the black wire (for example) to the ring on one end, and to the tip on the other?

[Ruphus]

It has been about a patchbay.

The majority of patchbays take 1/4". Most of professional or prosumer gear has XLR connections.

So there are good chances that it might be about XLR to TRS and vice versa.

And that´s how it has been, indeed.

Ruphus

[Albert]

XLR to TRS? Why didn't you say so sooner? That's not so dumb after all, it would be easy to mess up the pins wiring an XLR to TRS if you are not familiar with the connector hardware.

Well, this was fun while it lasted...

[nathanvacha]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

.....Same manufacturer for both connectors, same colour to same pin on both connectors, and you're fine. Except, maybe, for XLR to TRS adaptors, but also there: if you flip ALL signals' phase by using the same connector layout, you don't have a problem. And if you DO have a problem: flip the phase in the suspect channel of your DAW, and all problems are gone......

Originally Posted by Albert

Back to the beginning, I'm still not sure how you did this. Even if you followed the pinout for Switchcraft connectors but were using Neutrik, it wouldn't have mattered if you had simply connected the same color wire to the same connector on both ends.

So what you are saying is that you connected the black wire (for example) to the ring on one end, and to the tip on the other?

These answers look awefully close to what I told you already. And you're telling me to read. Moron. Don't tell me to read when you can't ask the right question you need the answer to. Of course xlr-trs is different. You never even mentioned xlr plugs in your original post.

I've never heard of anyone secretly misleading beginners, but damn... Hiding something from you is like playing hide 'n' seek with hellen keller. bonehead

Good luck out there ruphus.

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by Albert

I'm not arguing and I've already done it, but why is a cable tester not a valid substitute for a multimeter when it comes to testing cables? Every cable that checks out okay on my cable tester has checked out okay on the multimeter too.

The thinking behind what I said is not that a cable tester is inherently suspect in what it does BUT it is inherently limited in what it does. It can only check the wiring of the connectors that it has on it but a multimeter can check out any kind of connector or wiring harness. Lots of my cabling these days involves Elcos, DB25, unterminated and all sorts of other variables.
That's why I say you gotta have a multimeter. Besides, after you get comfortable with it you begin to find that it can measure things besides continuity.
The cable tester is handy to have but it's just icing on the cake. The multimeter is the essential tool for checking your wiring.