Recording engineers...

[kosmokrator]

..can you PLEASE track Overheads so that the Snare is in the center?
PLEASE!!
I mean I don't even ask for Kick AND Snare in the center. That seems to be impossible to achieve today.

But the Snare, for god's sake!! You don't even need to be a recording engineer for that, 7th grade geometry is all you need!

****, I celebrate every centered snare I get as if it was a lottery win!


A pissed off pro mixer.

[Grin-go-go]

It should be in "moan zone". I don't have that problem. Usually snare is in the center.

[Solidtube]

Why should the snare be in the centre? None of the drum kits I've recorded has the snare in the centre.

[psycho_monkey]

Amen.

I agree though, it's more by luck than judgement that the kick AND snare get centralised...recorderman does it, but at the expense of width.

Why? because that's the sound of modern rock...

[Strut78]

I think this video with George Massenburg really nails the idea and the approach to having a defined center image for the kick and snare. It's kind of hard to argue with and well worth watching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZOVZQgXl9k

[Salivan]

Originally Posted by Strut78

I think this video with George Massenburg really nails the idea and the approach to having a defined center image for the kick and snare. It's kind of hard to argue with and well worth watching.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

m.youtube ?
Not trying to say anything, but that link is a little strange for me, I wont click it =X
m.youtube ? Never saw this before...


Am I crazy/overrating ? Can someone click for me before ? =D hahaha

[Strut78]

Originally Posted by Salivan

m.youtube ?
Not trying to say anything, but that link is a little strange for me, I wont click it =X
m.youtube ? Never saw this before...


Am I crazy/overrating ? Can someone click for me before ? =D hahaha

Hey sorry, m.youtube is the version you get on your iPhone and iPad, which is where I was posting from, m standing for mobile device.

The link is the same for a desktop/laptop just needs www instead of the m, try this one, or simply search you tube for in the studio with George massenburg episode 1 milking drums.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZOVZQgXl9k

I fixed the link above also, either way the video is worth watching.

[drycappuccinoguy]

As a drummer the snare usually sit between my right and left leg. Can't get more center than that. Double kick setups are more symmetrical around the snare. Don't consider a kit's asymmetry as not being acoustically centred on the snare. many drum miking techniqeu kee bot kick and snare in the center of any overhead mics.
I am sure there are exception but in general yes keep it centred

[unit13]

Who gives a shit man! Just do whatever sounds good to you. People need to get over these so called 'rules' and just do what they want! Isn't great music always based in creativity and originality? Don't be held down by someone else's ideals.

[Tejan]

Originally Posted by Strut78

I think this video with George Massenburg really nails the idea and the approach to having a defined center image for the kick and snare. It's kind of hard to argue with and well worth watching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZOVZQgXl9k

I've been using this oh technique lately and am loving the results. The oh mics pick up the toms beautifully and the cymbals/snare/toms sound effortlessly balanced....not to mention the kick/snare center thing. I'm surprised I like it as I'm normally a fan of coincident pairs.

That said, there's a time and place for everything....pan that snare hard left if it moves you!

[cc1sound]

I'm with Unit13....if it feels Good...Do it !

I'd rather experimment a bit to find something different providing time allowed for it.

Unless You know the Room and the kit....Some Experimentation is likely necessary.

[robertshaw]

you can just pan &&|| adjust the gain on one side

[Strut78]

Originally Posted by robertshaw

you can just pan &&|| adjust the gain on one side

You can center a kick and snare that way, but it may end up with some phasing issues. The idea of having the overheads equally spaced over the plane the intersects the kick and the snare, is that the phase is preserved as the overheads are as equidistant as practically possible from the dominant elements of the drum kit (although this may depend on style/genre). Gain will not fix phase issues.

I am assuming however that the room is not an issue and the first reflections are equally spaced and diffuse. As always, use your ears!

[JonesH]

How will using a gain operation change the phase/time between the channels? Or do you mean that it'll bring out some phase differences that are already there more clearly?

(No offense intended at all, I just want to hear your thoughts on the matter.)

[robertshaw]

Originally Posted by JonesH

How will using a gain operation change the phase/time between the channels? Or do you mean that it'll bring out some phase differences that are already there more clearly?
(No offense intended at all, I just want to hear your thoughts on the matter.)

this has to be explained to you?

[Jim Williams]

Recording engineers....


I remember them well.


Those were those guys I saw as a kid wearing white shirts and ties, sometimes with a lab coat.

Those were the guys that built the equipment, seviced the equipment and used the equipment like they knew it inside and out.

Now we have a bunch of kids telling us that the snare drum MUST be centered.

Yes, times have changed...

[Strut78]

Originally Posted by JonesH

How will using a gain operation change the phase/time between the channels? Or do you mean that it'll bring out some phase differences that are already there more clearly?

(No offense intended at all, I just want to hear your thoughts on the matter.)

The timing between the overheads is fixed with their position relative to the snare/kick, so changing the gain to center a snare for example, won't change the phase as such, the overheads are not in phase with each other to begin with as they are not equidistant from the dominant source (assuming that is your goal). So increasing the gain of say the left overhead to centre the snare, will affect the tone of the snare due to its interaction with the close mic. I hope that makes sense.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Recording engineers....


I remember them well.


Those were those guys I saw as a kid wearing white shirts and ties, sometimes with a lab coat.

Those were the guys that built the equipment, seviced the equipment and used the equipment like they knew it inside and out.

Now we have a bunch of kids telling us that the snare drum MUST be centered.

Yes, times have changed...

IV-I

I am rapidly coming to the preconceived notion that everything I do in 2012 will have the entire drum kit panned right. Why not?, it works.

[fastlanestoner]

I'm pretty sure Tom Dowd just rolled over in his grave...

[Brentley Womac]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Recording engineers....


I remember them well.


Those were those guys I saw as a kid wearing white shirts and ties, sometimes with a lab coat.

Those were the guys that built the equipment, seviced the equipment and used the equipment like they knew it inside and out.

Now we have a bunch of kids telling us that the snare drum MUST be centered.

Yes, times have changed...

+1 and Amen!

[Granny Gremlin]

Originally Posted by Solidtube

Why should the snare be in the centre? None of the drum kits I've recorded has the snare in the centre.

+1 (especially for those who have a snare on the outside of the hat (e.g. Yuval Gabay)

If you insist on centering, rather than panning the OH or playing with relative gain, you could also compensate with the snare track(s). You don't need the snare centred in the OHs to have it centred in the mix.

There are plenty of hit/major records with snares not centred. Especially once you break out of the straight-up rock genre (but even there).

[JonesH]

Originally Posted by robertshaw

this has to be explained to you?

Robert,
I just wanted his perspective in hopes of gaining a better understanding of the posters reasoning. If I read you correctly now you mean that off-centered sources can be fixed by panning the OH mics, and this method can of course yield phase cancellations.

Originally Posted by Strut78

The timing between the overheads is fixed with their position relative to the snare/kick, so changing the gain to center a snare for example, won't change the phase as such, the overheads are not in phase with each other to begin with as they are not equidistant from the dominant source (assuming that is your goal). So increasing the gain of say the left overhead to centre the snare, will affect the tone of the snare due to its interaction with the close mic. I hope that makes sense.

Yes, in the context of panning the OH channels also. Thanks for your elaboration.

[Granny Gremlin]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

IV-I

I am rapidly coming to the preconceived notion that everything I do in 2012 will have the entire drum kit panned right. Why not?, it works.

Bob Rock did it in 94 (or maybe it was left; same difference). On The Cult (forget which track).

[Strut78]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Recording engineers....


I remember them well.


Those were those guys I saw as a kid wearing white shirts and ties, sometimes with a lab coat.

Those were the guys that built the equipment, seviced the equipment and used the equipment like they knew it inside and out.

Now we have a bunch of kids telling us that the snare drum MUST be centered.

Yes, times have changed...

It really isn't a matter of saying the snare must be centered, it really depends on your goals, genre and expectations, but in discussing the original topic, if your overheads are in phase with each other relative to the dominant sources in the drum kit, assuming these are the kick and the snare, then it really does go towards removing one element from the equation. You can treat your overheads as one source and not two. Everything has its place it really just depends on your objectives.

I'm sure the guys in lab coats would appreciate that, after all science does tend towards a understanding of physics and wave theory.

[Ward Pike]

Just center the overheads (main stereo pair) in XY or ORTF in the actual center of the kit and lightly pan all other channels (spot mic's on each drum or cymbal) to their place relative to their position in the kit set-up.

You usually always end up with time-aligned tracks without phase issues.

[Strut78]

Originally Posted by Ward Pike

Just center the overheads (main stereo pair) in XY or ORTF in the actual center of the kit and lightly pan all other channels (spot mic's on each drum or cymbal) to their place relative to their position in the kit set-up.

You usually always end up with time-aligned tracks without phase issues.

Hey, yeah sorry, I was assuming an AB setup due to the original post, but good xy mic technique will prevent a lot of the phasing issues I was talking about. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Jared Paul]

Originally Posted by Strut78

I think this video with George Massenburg really nails the idea and the approach to having a defined center image for the kick and snare. It's kind of hard to argue with and well worth watching.

In studio with George Massenburg - Ep. 1 : miking the drums - YouTube

Great vid!

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Recording engineers....


I remember them well.


Those were those guys I saw as a kid wearing white shirts and ties, sometimes with a lab coat.

Those were the guys that built the equipment, seviced the equipment and used the equipment like they knew it inside and out.

Now we have a bunch of kids telling us that the snare drum MUST be centered.

Yes, times have changed...

And you can get off my lawn while you're at it....btw, for "centred snare MUST be centred" read "mix buss compression MUST be left to the mastering engineer" and we have a case of Mr Pot waiting for Mr Kettle in reception...

I wouldn't say the snare HAS to be centred. But if someone's reference track for the mix has a centred snare, it would be nice if it were recorded that way. Obviously not appropriate for all genres...very appropriate for modern rock/pop. I think that's all the OP is saying, and I agree with him.

[kosmokrator]

Originally Posted by robertshaw

you can just pan &&|| adjust the gain on one side

Pan, no, not if you want maximum width.

Gain messes with the realtion between the cymbals.


Of course I do all that. That are bandaids though.

[kosmokrator]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Recording engineers....


I remember them well.


Those were those guys I saw as a kid wearing white shirts and ties, sometimes with a lab coat.

Those were the guys that built the equipment, seviced the equipment and used the equipment like they knew it inside and out.

Now we have a bunch of kids telling us that the snare drum MUST be centered.

Yes, times have changed...

Now what does your ability to fix/design gear have to do with your ability to record great sounds?
Nothing.
Correlation doesn't equal causation. You as a man of science should know that.
Also, I'm not a kid and in some genres the snare must be centered, yes.
Then again, if you remember those great lab-coat-times, you might also remember that in those times people could actually record something without a 72 year old kid moaning about that the slewrate of the opamps is not good enough.
Next.