MOVED TO ABLETON from PT HD3 Accell and happy

[ology]

Yep, I'm gonna say it...

I have been a Pro Tools user for 10 + years... Had LE, then TDM Mix PLus systems, and now an HD3 Rig... Pro Tools you brought me many hours of enjoyment, frustration ---drained my wallet at times , not to mention your super intelligent Customer service.... but now it's time to move one... trust me,I would have loved to have purchased your PT 10 .."32 bit Floating point Buss ready" system with CLIP GAIN--- YEAH!!!!!! clip gain! ( cheeeers).....with it's amazing new "sound quality" and expensive add ons to boot, but to be honest... Since I have been using Ableton Live 8 ( Which is already 32 bit floating point buss, Clip Gain, Instant Freezing to audio etc...) and now mixing in it, yes...MIXING in it and being STUNNED at what I am hearing... I simply don't need you anymore. And I get all of this for around 800 $ or less, wow it's the like the happy meal of DAWS. I have been mixing large format pro sessions 30-60 Tracks and have not needed a TDM card since . Now, My Mixes sound more amazing than ever and My clients have even complimented me on the sonic change not to mention my production has sped up considerably faster. Parting is bittersweet but my music, my life, my nerves, and my clients have never been happier.... Thanks you Albeton....R.I.P Digidesign......

[carlheinz]

I dig Live.Just curious,what hardware converters have you paired up with?

Thanks

[pardonmytone]

I'd really like to hear more about your experiences here.

I'm deciding whether to upgrade from PT9 to HD Native or HDX + Artist Mix or just go completely Ableton teamed up with an SSL Nucleus (SSL just made an Ableton Live template for the Nucleus: Ableton - New Ableton Live control template for SSL Nucleus).

I mostly use Ableton Suite 8.2 for production but I use PT9 for notation stuff. Rewiring Ableton into PT seems to prevent clip triggering which is annoying, so I was thinking of physically connecting 8 channels of ADAT out of Ableton into another PTHD DAW for linear editing. Linear editing in Ableton is not my favorite but I suppose I could make do until Ableton Live 9 which should have better features in this area.

I agree with what you say, Ableton Live 8 already has clip gain, 32-bit float, not to mention 64-bit summing, easy routing functionality with manual time or sample delay settings (whereas PT9 only has time delay in ms - PTHD does it automatically, I know)... On paper, Ableton has a lot on offer but there haven't been too many people posting with your kind of experience. Ableton is just so much fun to use too...

I'd appreciate any comments. I don't have clients, I just write for fun but I'm reasonably serious...

[ology]

I am using a Lynx Aroura 16 for input but a Lavry 2 Channel DAC for output connected via AES EBU. Clocked with an Antelope Audio Clock..to the Aroura.

Mixing in Ableton is something you have to really learn to do... Until they come out with a much more intuitive "Mix Version" of it which i SOOOO wish they would.. you will have to make some sacrifices. But hell, your saving 10K... and the sacrifices are NOT that bad.

I was so surprised to find out how many tracks I could mix in Albeton!!. Today I worked on a session that would have been 105 Track Voices In Tools... no glitch at all.. it hauled ass... I could have kept going!...I use a Mac Pro tower Quad Core. I have 9 Gigs Ram , OS10.6.7 . It smokes for the most part. Ableton is SOOOOO much faster then Tools for Producing and mixing. And I DIDN'T have to spend 10K to get there!. Of course Mixing in Ableton requires some getting used to , but I don't mind getting use to it because I LOVE LOVE LOVE my mixes now and quality I can get out of that DAW surpasses Pro Tools so far it's not funny. I was floored by it's clarity and width and ability to maintain EXTREME clarity through the mixing process. I never lose punch in kicks, as I stack up the mix and have so many tracks, It doesn't get Blurry to me at all...Headroom is amazing. It's a lot like Logic in that way. But a Bit easier to conceptualize once you learn it. Hope this helps...

[analogexplosions]

I'm a HUGE Ableton fan!

It is my DAW of choice for most applications, and I use it in my live performing rig too. Their built-in plugins really blew me away! The EQ-8 and Compressor are really quite good.

I am also really impressed with how you can group tracks together and you get individual control via each track's fader, and overall control via the group/parent fader, like having VCA's in PT. Love it. Plus, everything is collapsable. I like keeping everything clean.

[pardonmytone]

hey thanks guys, that helped quite a bit. very interesting to hear that you get better mixes with Ableton since a lot of people tend to bag the mix engine / processing. all those nice things they are saying about PT10 are exactly what you are saying about Ableton now... hahah!

Yeah if they make Ableton 9 more mix friendly (dual monitor support at least), I think a lot of people are going to gravitate over. I would like to see an easier way to comp... I mentioned this to them about a year ago and I'm sure tons of other people have asked for it too.

[GeorgeHayduke]

Originally Posted by ology

..Now, My Mixes sound more amazing than ever and My clients have even complimented me on the sonic change .....

I'm just curious, what change was this? Are you saying the Ableton plugins sound better than PT's? Or does it sound better because you find it easier to do what you want?

[ology]

@George...

I actually think ABleton's plug sound better..something about the resolution or something. Makes them much more clear. And over the span of many tracks. They still sound as clear.. I dont' get the mud problem when mixing large track counts..( not sure if its the 32bit float). Or headroom or whatever but to me it just sound really good. Im still learning things that are making even easier to mix. Overall it's a stunning DAW and has the potential to takeover just about the entire consumer/pro market. Minus if course posting houses, however im sure it would even do that well! Ha

[doom64]

Pro Tools sucks compared to the current competition. Avid/Digidesign are resting on their laurels and they still have A LOT of catching up to do.

[carlheinz]

What's the OP doing in the moan zone?...Not much of a moan..Sounds like good news!
I'm sitting on an old PTHD 7.3.1 with 2x 192's with 24x24 I/O.The system sounds great and it's always interfaced with a console.As good as this may seem,Ableton Live is turned on,the Protools turned off most of the time.Enough said.

[analogexplosions]

One thing that made me fall in love with Ableton is the Effect Rack system they have. Holy $hit it is cool. I can do parallel, or even multiband processing to a track without any further routing. It's truly incredible.

The longer I use it, the more it replaces every other DAW I have.

[spaceacademy]

Used Ableton Live for 10 years now. Weaning my self off it. I cannot begin to list the multitude of basic features hat are still missing from that Daw. Just one off the top of my head. NUDGING. You cannot do this in live with any accuracy whatsoever, and of course there is no key command for such a feature. There is neither a display to tell you that an audio part, lets say a clap has been nudged backward by a specific amount of samples/ms meaning you can never really learn those little tricks that work for you (eg second clap in a bar always knocked back by an exact amount). Theres no clip mute tool (thats an infuriating right click then deactivate). Ableton have stated on their forum they will never ever implement basic tools JUST BECAUSE they refuse to do anything the same as any other company. Thsi of course is to the detriment of the end user. Audio editing is but a joke, and then theres the weird sound when many tracks are warped. I avoided warping completely. Sort of defeats the purpose of the daw. Then theres the diabolical linear/arrange page and extremely poor midi editing. The stuff you take for granted in Pro Tools will be missed once the romance is over.

[ology]

@Space... Yep I totally feel you. There are some simple things I really wish they would embrace. I think if they thought of it this way they would do it... I wish Ableton would realize that If they would implement just a few small things like that, they would basically BE the new PRO TOOLS... simply put. I struggle with some of those thing however I still think it's worth the struggle because I am loving my final mixes... I can hear them months later and still be like "wow" nice! It sure beats spending 10K+ for another slap and and promise from Avid... R.I.P

[MediaMix]

HD3 to Live and still keep clients? Yeah right

A lot of disguised promo threads on GS nowadays.

[KT1]

I couldn't work without it. Was frustrating at first. Then I hated it...now I can't work any other way!

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Gearslutz.com

[ology]

Yep, My Clients LOVE AL.. actually they request me use that INSTEAD!.. I move faster, mixes better, and everyone much more happy with the tricks I can do with having massive effect at a touch. Plus I really like having a real time putch bender on every track...

[Resonance5]

Ableton is the most amazing thing after the discovery of fire.

only little issue is the audio engine, with a lot of tracks the output gets muddy.
but with few channels summing box and good conversion it becomes a warrior.
best DAW available for any task.

[Electrode]

Originally Posted by pardonmytone

I'd really like to hear more about your experiences here.

I'm deciding whether to upgrade from PT9 to HD Native or HDX + Artist Mix or just go completely Ableton teamed up with an SSL Nucleus (SSL just made an Ableton Live template for the Nucleus: Ableton - New Ableton Live control template for SSL Nucleus).

I mostly use Ableton Suite 8.2 for production but I use PT9 for notation stuff. Rewiring Ableton into PT seems to prevent clip triggering which is annoying, so I was thinking of physically connecting 8 channels of ADAT out of Ableton into another PTHD DAW for linear editing. Linear editing in Ableton is not my favorite but I suppose I could make do until Ableton Live 9 which should have better features in this area.

I agree with what you say, Ableton Live 8 already has clip gain, 32-bit float, not to mention 64-bit summing, easy routing functionality with manual time or sample delay settings (whereas PT9 only has time delay in ms - PTHD does it automatically, I know)... On paper, Ableton has a lot on offer but there haven't been too many people posting with your kind of experience. Ableton is just so much fun to use too...

I'd appreciate any comments. I don't have clients, I just write for fun but I'm reasonably serious...

I have been using ableton live since version 6. It is a really great compositional platform. I can get ideas down quickly and put entire tracks together in no time...


...but it will never replace my HD accel 2 rig. Ableton live and protools Hd are complementary program's in my eyes.

If you aren't utilising the features of Hd, then I'd give it the flick. Why spend $8000 on features you don't need?

[baskervils]

All of my composition is in Ableton. Sometimes I mix in Live, too. It's a real wonder. If I could edit clips on the fly, I'd probably only use Live and no other DAW. (Using a Lynx Aurora and a Toft board)

For mixing, I like Pro Tools better. It's a more pleasing and functional linear experience.

[synthoid]

I've been working exclusively in Live for the past several years. I've done a lot of work in Logic, and some in PTHD as well. I'm crazy about Live over all. I do think it has some issues with delay compensation and 3d party plugs in comparison to PTHD, and some editing operations like comping vocals are ... well, I've gotten pretty fast at doing them in Live but in all honesty they can be done more quickly in both PT and Logic by someone who is fluent in those DAWs. But there are plenty of operations that I find faster in Live, so it comes out in the wash in my case.

The thing I like about Live above all is that it's such a simple and flexible tool to work with. You want a routing structure of some kind? Create some tracks and route them to one another however you like. You want to record some song sections and stash them close by but not leave them cluttering up the arrangement? Stick them over in session clips. You want to take a bunch of tracks out of the project and maybe bring them back later? Drag them to the browser and later drag them back. You want to bind a knob on a controller to something in the DAW? Hit CMD-M, click on the something and turn the knob. It's just such an easy tool to work with. And the net result is that it's more relaxing to me, I don't have to remember as many things and I can concentrate on stuff other than the DAW.

As far as sound goes: Live's plugs are very nice, but honestly I think you can a good sound out of any of the top DAWs these days if you work at it. The main thing is whether you connect with it, whether you get into it and feel inspired. To me that's a lot more important than whether this or that built-in EQ plug sounds better etc. I don't 'connect' with Logic, but I see guys who definitely do, and their stuff sounds great.

As far as clients go: if they want PT then that's what they want. Of course depending on the type of client, they're just as likely to show up with a Logic project that they want you to work on as a PT project at this point. When you don't get a choice, then of course you don't get a choice... But still there's a lot of audio work where the final deliverable is audio files and the DAW used is just immaterial, no one cares or asks.

my 2c.

-synthoid

[Sqye]

.

I so hear you, man.

My frustration with proprietary hw ended in the 90s when I bailed on Macs, Digi, Logic, etc.
Although, I continued to use Apple/Digi/Logic/Performer/Cubase for records on projects where clients wanted it,
...and for a few other projects with collaborators who were heavy Mac and Digi users.

I remember going to a studio in the 90s/early 2000s where they had a Digi interface
that would only allow the OS and sw to do eight tracks of audio at a time,
when Sonar was already doing unlimited CPU-based track recording.

You can read my Sonar 6 (w/Dimension Pro and Rapture) review for Tape Op here. This was 5 frikkin' years ago (!)
...btw - they list the sw price incorrectly in Tape Op. That price was actually for Dimension Pro only at the time.

As for bit performance, I've been working in 64-bit for the last few years minimum - Win 7 x64 + Sonar x64.

A co-producer of mine (in Mumbai) uses Live for our live production, backing tracks, rehearsals, etc.,
and it is a slamming program! ...If I wasn't a Sonar artist/producer, I'd seriously consider Live.

Screeew proprietary hw (!)

Let Apple continue to poison the earth with all their constantly disposable hw. Not for me, thank you!

Cheers, and welcome to the dark side.


Of course, I just realized you could be using a Mac. DOH! Oh, well.


.

[pardonmytone]

Originally Posted by Electrode

I have been using ableton live since version 6. It is a really great compositional platform. I can get ideas down quickly and put entire tracks together in no time...


...but it will never replace my HD accel 2 rig. Ableton live and protools Hd are complementary program's in my eyes.

If you aren't utilising the features of Hd, then I'd give it the flick. Why spend $8000 on features you don't need?

yeah thanks for the advice. i'm still deciding actually. thinking of putting the HD money on some high end speakers instead!

[LoopQuantum]

I've got nothing against PT, and have a PT rig that gets mostly used for editing...but...

Hell yes, Ableton Live is great. Most of my work is writing for 2 bands, and some commercial stuff, and I use it 100% of the time for writing. It's pretty much the only DAW that lets me think about what I'm working on, instead of thinking about the software. LOVE Live!!!!

[pkBBS]

Good lord I'm home!

I've been so alone mixing in Ableton Live the past 9 years.. Laughed at! Ableton is a totally different experience than ProTools, but once you know what you're doing in it its like butter. I started my own studio about a year ago and seriously considered switching to Cubase or Protools, simply out of the dogma that you must have one to be respectable at all. Some people even think Cubase is hack. I got some good advice from another engineer who was for the most part moving to pure analog, he said that it's basically just a mixing board. What you're most comfortable with is what will be best.

That being said Live has some downfalls that is for sure. I used to think there were more - busses for example, they don't work in Live like they do in any other DAW. The return tracks have a slight bit of delay that is not correct automatically--- but the return tracks aren't the equivalent of busses. Groups and the effects racks are. It's so easy to do so many different layers that all split into individually mixable, automate-able tracks, which recombine with no delay.

So of recent, I've really found the main issue with Live is the fact that while recording EVERYTHING you do gets automated. So if I have a singer in the booth and I want to bring up their feed, or maybe my master channel, or maybe the snare? It all gets automated. The worst is the master feed, because sometimes if you forget it was automated you can be blasted suddenly if you turn up the speakers. I've written ableton more than one e-mail about this. The other issue is the stupid warping - It causes RAM issues, delays, crackling (which for a while I thought was my interface, drove my self half crazy trying to fix it). I don't make beats, or electronic music at all. I record mostly rock and roots music, and I have no use for warping, except maybe if a guitarist does a terrible solo and wants me to turn it into something decent (don't get me started on that...)

The plugins are actually quite good, there are some fun ones as well. Their Vocoder is top notch, as are many of their other electronic music tools. When it comes to good old EQ and compression they lack however. This isn't much of a problem as Ableton works great with VSTs and can automate ANYTHING.

I'm actually still thinking a little about switching to protools, using the two in tandem. But for the price (or around the price) I could just get a better workhorse condenser, or better monitors, which I'm starting to think would benefit me more.

and to finish --

Originally Posted by synthoid

You want to record some song sections and stash them close by but not leave them cluttering up the arrangement? Stick them over in session clips.
-synthoid

Why have I never thought of that? This is what I love about working with DAWs, little ideas can make such a difference!

[synthoid]

Originally Posted by pkBBS

So of recent, I've really found the main issue with Live is the fact that while recording EVERYTHING you do gets automated. So if I have a singer in the booth and I want to bring up their feed, or maybe my master channel, or maybe the snare? It all gets automated. The worst is the master feed, because sometimes if you forget it was automated you can be blasted suddenly if you turn up the speakers. I've written ableton more than one e-mail about this.

haha, I feel your pain on this one. I have gotten scrod by this any number of times, touching all kinds of controls with record armed. If you want to keep the take, you have to delete each and every control automation by hand. The ultimate nightmare is to touch a control that really is (already) automated during a take that you want to keep. In that case you either lost your automation or else you have to dig out the unwanted stuff by hand, haha. To my mind this is the feature that proves that the designers never anticipated that Live would be used in a normal studio environment for tracking. One button or option somewhere, like the little lock thing for protecting automation, would do the trick, seems so easy to fix.

The other issue is the stupid warping - It causes RAM issues, delays, crackling (which for a while I thought was my interface, drove my self half crazy trying to fix it).

I just turn it off in preferences, and keep an eye on clips to make sure it doesn't crop in where I don't want it. I wish the warp status were visible on a clip from arrangement / session view, without having to look in the detail area. I have to admit that I use it reasonably often to touch up small timing errors, although just as often I simply chop the audio up and move it around ala PT.

The plugins are actually quite good, there are some fun ones as well. Their Vocoder is top notch, as are many of their other electronic music tools. When it comes to good old EQ and compression they lack however. This isn't much of a problem as Ableton works great with VSTs and can automate ANYTHING.

Funny, I find the compressor to be quite good and the multiband to be very good. Same for EQ8, it works fine for me. I really like that I can see the eq curve so easily from the interface. Their Reverb has a bad rep too but I've found a lot of uses for it, sometimes with an EQ8 on the send to it.

-synthoid

[KT1]

I agree and love live ...but..I don't like recording vocals or mixing in it. Let's bot forget how old the latest version of live is! Well ahead of its time. In so excited to see what 9 will look like.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Gearslutz App

[Dysanfel]

Ableton's name recognition is getting larger every year throughout the industry. There may be a day soon where Live is seen a legitimate alternative in the commercial environment. This may be even more true as traditional musicianship declines and the days of the guitar/bass/drums/vocal line-up vanish.