the sell out continues

[splitradix]

Originally Posted by jlw

This is a ridiculous argument in my opinion, the day you dilute your artistic integrity in order to gain commercial success, is the day you lose.

You know Mozart, Beethoven et al all wrote for people who paid them for symphonies on delivery?

In a perfect world we'd all spent 100% of our time producing amazing art for free, but in reality we all need our patrons. Be they millionaire kings with amazing taste, or the common rabble with Beatport accounts, or something in between.

[jlw]

Originally Posted by splitradix

You know Mozart, Beethoven et al all wrote for people who paid them for symphonies on delivery?

In a perfect world we'd all spent 100% of our time producing amazing art for free, but in reality we all need our patrons. Be they millionaire kings with amazing taste, or the common rabble with Beatport accounts, or something in between.

I dont think mozart or beethoven diluted their output for $$, quite the opposite.

[boon]

Originally Posted by jlw

This is a ridiculous argument in my opinion, the day you dilute your artistic integrity in order to make money, is the day you lose.

i guess aphex lost when he sold a song to pirelli for 6 figures to use in an advert on tv.

and yeah.. mozart and stuff.. see above post by splitradix

everyone has to make a living somehow. some people are fortunate enough to make a living purely from their art and some people do a little extra like sell songs to commercials or make sample content or do sound for film or get paid to say "hi i'm super tecno guy and use (insert software/hardware here) ____________" in a magazine advert etc.

that's not diluting artistic integrity it's diluting personal integrity but we all have personal principles that we live by but that's all another thread i guess.

[jlw]

Originally Posted by sftd

I don't understand what you mean?

Can you show me where I chastised his English?

Post #65 and #66, perhaps I miss read your sarcasm but it seemed that you were doing just that.

[jlw]

Originally Posted by boon

i guess aphex lost when he sold a song to pirelli for 6 figures to use in an advert on tv.

and yeah.. mozart and stuff.. see above post by splitradix

I think you are confusing financial success with diluting your output in order to gain such success.

[sftd]

Originally Posted by jlw

Post #65 and #66, perhaps I miss read your sarcasm but it seemed that you were doing just that.

Yeah you must have misread me there. Sometimes I get to typing so quick on my phone that my ackuracy really suffers because of it.

That's pretty bad when you mess up typing your own native language worse than someone who doesn't even know it that well lol!

It's not 3phases fault that my typing sucks!

Besides man, 3phase is a good friend of mine and a big influence on my music. I don't know about you but the last thing I want to do is go insulting some of my musical idols.

Sent from my PC36100 using Gearslutz.com App

[jlw]

Sure

[asbak]

Originally Posted by 3phase

And the scene IS damaged by too much pseudos clogging the market and giving false role models..that damages the style and state of the art of the music in the general publics reception.. Wont kill the underground..sure.. but kill the opportunitys of talent to get a carrier.

Those pseudos and talentless copiers serve a useful purpose. They make the rest who have a bit of talent and creativity stand out!

Sure, it probably won't translate into heaps of $$$ but what's more important to the guy who is serious about his music? Self-respect or money?

Ableton is just another tool amongst 1000's of tools, it can be as useful or as useless as anything else out there. Personally I probably wouldn't be touching it with a bargepole or another man's d1ck but if it works for others... more power to them.

Like in politics only total dicks will enter into the high positions and the consequence? the end of the world just by beeing ruled by dicks? probably not.. but thats no reason to let this shame just happen un commented.

Politics is the preserve of those who tend to crave power in order to further their own agendas. Therefore it attracts certain types of characters, in other words, unsavoury people 99.9999% of the time.

The world is what it is... full of scammers and full of sheeple. That's the way it is, that's the way it's always been, that's the way it will always be.

Don't worry about the rest, just get on with the job, do it to your best ability. What the rest of humanity get up to... that's their business, it doesn't matter. They have to find their own way. Most of them will suck, regardless of Ableton, Autotune or Loop CD's.

[3phase]

I just found a positve aspect in this disgusting ableton partner instrument..

Maybe it at least helps in parts of the world wher the people are into this horrible end 90´s hyper trance.. => asia. An injection of fresher materials might help there

But saying that, i know that people at ableton are neither caring nor smart enough to think around such corners and that the intention was really just to allow the untalented to enjoy theire products..


However..
feeding the copycats with better materials maybe helps the ears of the club audience in parts of the world where electronic music is still in the childrens shoes..

kindergarden loops might just suit well there.

[jlw]

As much as the use of these loop packs making it into released music is not a particularity good thing. I don't think it takes away from the fact that Ableton is a great program for writing and producing electronic music.

At the end of the day they are a business and they are out there to make money. Times are tough financially so I guess they have to spread their wings further in order to bring in revenue.


I am a fan of Ableton the program, I think it has been quite a refreshing take on the 'DAW'. As long as their business decisions don't start to affect the program itself, it wont take away from the things that make Ableton good.

[Susceptor]

Originally Posted by boon

that's not diluting artistic integrity it's diluting personal integrity but we all have personal principles that we live by but that's all another thread i guess.

Wait just a minute. So let's say I'm a hot shot producer. I make awesome music and don't need to musically prostitute myself because people like my music just the way it is. What's wrong with saying in some magazine that you use this software and that hardware for some extra cash? I mean, if you really use that and you're honest about it, I don't see the problem. Of course, if you advertise that you use ProTools when you really do everything in FL Studio...


Wait, actually... no one should advertise ProTools, no matter what.

[jlw]

That isn't whats being debated here though is it.

[3phase]

when you are in it for the money you work for a bank.. than you are closer to the source..

when you are technical supplier for artists you should have at least some morals and sensibilities.
Its a fact that theese genre specivic loopkits steel jobs from original genre specific artists..

In the 90´s when a adverticing agency needed a techno alike trackl they had to hire a techno producer. Now the practicant is doing it during the lunchbreak..

That really dont helps to give a music value in the public reception..

And i dont like that.

People that are serious about electronic music maybe can ignore whats going on.. but do you really accept it? And is´nt it an insult towards the professional userbase when a daw company suplys the wanabees with such mighty tools?

As said earlier ..i worked with this tricks.. maybe you are not aware of how mighty they are yet.. You can fool the human brain.. And the inbuild warning sign for generic techno that made it easy to recognize for the trained ear was the souless monotony in it.. So a kind of natural copy protection for the real stuff..
When this is gone...?? It cant be good when the computer replaces us in the art of music first. Than the fears of the traditional musicans towards the first drumcomputers would become true..
And like in terminator the machines will be the enemy...

Actually i fear that a little. Once a random generator composed piece music reaches my heart i know that i ve wasted my live.

Anyway. Ableton is a german company. and therefore one shouldnt ask for much style or sensebility.. these germans are more on the roughneck side of things.. and when they are the first on the buffet the will eleminate all shrimps, filets steaks and everything that dont tastes like onions...

Its funny that beeing greedy for money is an ok character mark in the capitalistic world..
I seem to remember that before the communist east collapsed they tried to sell a more christian moral.. but that was yesterday.. Now money is our unchallenged god again. As long it brings money its good..And a company that just walks over their old customers to reach new users is just acting natural.. The natural ways of greed..

Marry christmess.. 25% off is not enough..An d i am really pissed of that they will get the L9 upgrade fee of me because i ve terrabytes of unreleased content in live sessions. and L8 is still crashing way to often..

But i am about switching to protools again.. In the end of the day live just gives little advantages on the spontanious session.. On the long run and working more with hardware and to finalize productions Protools is the better choice.. It had it problems too.. but after 16 years with hard disk recordings i ve to testify that the protools sessions are the only ones that still open fine...

So for guys that became so slow as me that one projekt can use 7 years.. abletion is a shit choice really.. its for kids ;-)

And i helped the kids by kicking abletins ass so long that they banned me from theoer forum..but now.. it allready syncs better..

I told them that the future is bandwork again..but now with laptops..and that they need to allow that.. a stage software that cant be synced with another laptop using live aswel ..pfff.. how can a company miss that demand that is printed all over the sky somehow..

the ableton guys are really not the smartest, intelligent.. but super nerdish.. they just dont know what they are doing really..Or they play intenonal dumb to get more upgrade cycles... and they always need ages to realize their in house made problems..

as i hear form inner berlin rumors they finally searching the audio bug that splits the electro production world in 2 parts since years..

Because that any 32 bit float daw sounds the same is only true when you do everything right and dont invent software internal jitter phenomenons

[3phase]

Originally Posted by Susceptor

Wait just a minute. So let's say I'm a hot shot producer. I make awesome music and don't need to musically prostitute myself because people like my music just the way it is. What's wrong with saying in some magazine that you use this software and that hardware for some extra cash? I mean, if you really use that and you're honest about it, I don't see the problem. Of course, if you advertise that you use ProTools when you really do everything in FL Studio...


Wait, actually... no one should advertise ProTools, no matter what.

As sad it is.. as more hooker you are as more money you will make in the music biz..

whether people will consider you as an artist is another question thou..

On the artist side of things i only can recomend to have a long breath..

people that really live for their art and hold on to it.. dont alowe to be taken away from it or sell off to early.. just keep on doing..regardless that the chances are 100000:1... And keeping on releasing.. dont mater how many units.. ( a thing i havent done really.. but thats important to show presence)
These people strong enough will find success..and when its just a few hundred real longterm fans..what is much more worth than beeing the it girl for a month..

However.. when you wanna be ritch..you have to be a bitch..

[Liquid360]

With all that's going on in the Music Industry, worrying about "loops" is the least of my concerns. If you're a good artist you can make music with them, or without them.

Too much time on your hands 3phase?

anyway. Ableton is a german company. and therefore one shouldnt ask for much tyle or sensebility.. these germans are more on the roughneck side of things.. and when they are the first on the buffet the will eleminate all shrimps, filets steaks and everything that dont tastes like onions...

Its funny that beeing greedy for money is an ok character mark in the capitalistic world..
#I think befor the communist east collapsed they tried to sell a more christian moral.. but that was yesterday.. Now money is our unchallenged god again. Aslong it brings money its good..And a company that just walks over their old customers to reach new users is just acting natural.. The natural emotion of greed..

Hey, are you the guy that came up with that Kennedy Assassination Conspiracy? Do you believe there are flying saucers in Area 51?... LOLOL...

[Susceptor]

Originally Posted by Liquid360

Do you believe there are flying saucers in Area 51?

There aren't?

[Liquid360]

There aren't?

No, and I hate to break it to you, but I don't believe in Santa Claus either.

Now money is our unchallenged god

Come on guys, let's hear it for The God Money!!!! Yeah!!!



Money rocks!

[3phase]

Originally Posted by Liquid360

With all that's going on in the Music Industry, worrying about "loops" is the least of my concerns. If you're a good artist you can make music with them, or without them.

Too much time on your hands 3phase?



Hey, are you the guy that came up with that Kennedy Assassination Conspiracy? Do you believe there are flying saucers in Area 51?... LOLOL...

???

just see yourself

Life as an Ableton Developer - YouTube

and i just safing myself from doing the tax declarations.. nort really too much time.. but.. ther are more usefull things to do than paying taxes..like posting in this thread :-P

[Liquid360]

Life as an Ableton Developer - YouTube

After watching that video I wanted to move to Germany and work for them. Hell, I even have an old girlfriend that lives there, PERFECT!

[bluemoon]

the goal of every (successful) company out there is to make a buck. If you still don't understand this you're probably still a student living off your parents and never really had to support yourself or a family.

I'd be the first to stand by you if your rant was about the amount of bugs still present in L8. That's a good reason to be pissed. You're paying for a product that doesn't live up to its specs. Still, I'd say that your best bet would be to stop using the product of it doesn't suit your needs.

But all this nonsense about the moral and ethics is just juvenile BS. Think about it. Plus, just think about all the gazillion samples available everywhere...what's the difference if Ableton sells them or not.

Also, I bet that most of the tech-house tracks in your playlist use similar loops and samples. Does this mean the tracks have less value?

[thefunnel]

Let's hear your non-generic, awesome, universally original tunes 3phase. Really. If you're making white noise surge plinky plonk bongo v-neck & big ass shades tech-house, I wanna know.

[Dubtek71]

Originally Posted by thefunnel

Let's hear your non-generic, awesome, universally original tunes 3phase. Really. If you're making white noise surge plinky plonk bongo v-neck & big ass shades tech-house, I wanna know.

You might notice the label its on....
Transmat.
Guess at one time he had Derrick May's respect.

[Dubtek71]

He also shows up on the Tresor II compilation. Which is respectable....


For those who actually don't know who 3Phase is....

http://www.discogs.com/artist/3+Phase

[3phase]

Originally Posted by bluemoon

the goal of every (successful) company out there is to make a buck. If you still don't understand this you're probably still a student living off your parents and never really had to support yourself or a family.

I'd be the first to stand by you if your rant was about the amount of bugs still present in L8. That's a good reason to be pissed. You're paying for a product that doesn't live up to its specs. Still, I'd say that your best bet would be to stop using the product of it doesn't suit your needs.

But all this nonsense about the moral and ethics is just juvenile BS. Think about it. Plus, just think about all the gazillion samples available everywhere...what's the difference if Ableton sells them or not.

Also, I bet that most of the tech-house tracks in your playlist use similar loops and samples. Does this mean the tracks have less value?

What are you talking about??? I have spend half my life in the engineering business building big studios and i always had to fight with the business student fraction that rules companys these days..And that in the end will ruin world wide economy just out of greed..

As an engineer there is a codex of honour that you will solve the problems and hold your dates..
That form follows function and that the Projekt success is the first point on the agenda. it has to work. tHan we taklk about profit optimisation.. not the other way around.
In the business world there is just the codex that when they can screw you ..they will screw you.
And any mistake on your side is theire profit.. An engineer is ther to solve problems and not to lure customers into profitable traps.

In my personal experiance i safed the business assholes on more than half a dozent occasions by doing it the right way,,and not as they would have liked me doing it. Of cause they hated me..But success dont leaves them much options.. The had to chew it that you can be a partner to the customer.
Especially on the international market you cant fool your customers, you might need them to get out of the country again..
And especially from a german company they expect a bit more than getting screwed and left with halfready solutions..

In this regard ableton is not a german company..
I think they play dumber than they are.and they arteficially slowed down theier own development..up to the point where they tried to be a bit adventures again with L8, and the collected rubel of years just collapsed over them ..with the result of the most buggy daw release version ever..around 1000 bugs got eliminated in L8 sofar... !!!

thats the world record..

And with some german or general engineering wisdom that wouldnt have been happened..
Things like..

when you dont do it right you do it twice.

or

saving money on the wrong spot will rise the costs..

Aso..

A only profit orientated world view dont works.. That has leaded to the first 2 world wars already..And when they hold on like that we might see a third one day.

Fact is that the communist systems forced the western world to develop a more social orientated form of capitalism.. just to dont loose face.. the free world versus the communist dictator ships.. dont works so well with a 1900 version of ruthless capitalism.. The type we are falling back to now since years with stockmarket crashes and all the 1910 stuff that belongs to that money is everything politics..

Anyway.. beside of politics there are things like quality in technical products..
Software is a technical product and Ableton failed to provide quality..

Leading to a public apology of the CEO.. a first timer in the audio software world.. But as in politics.. just a fake.. None of the promisses was hold.. except that L8 never was finished.. up to today features sold with the upgrade are missing. But nobody asks for that..everybody is happy that it runs halfways stable again and only crashes once a week. Me aswell actually.

The actual partner instrument has nothing to do with abletons internal quality.. but again shows the a rather ignorant handwriting.
Just like changing the file format 2 times in one year ... wow... great engineering really.. when you dont do it right you do it twice ?

I really dont understand why they need to feature generic music production.
Thats actually a bit like that

[Liquid360]

Originally Posted by Dubtek71

Yikes.

Hey, I don't know 3phase, He's probably a really nice guy in person.

But some of his comments reminded me of this...

3phase learns what money is:

[Dubtek71]

Originally Posted by Liquid360

Yikes.

Hey, I don't know 3phase, He's probably a really nice guy in person.

But some of his comments reminded me of this...

3phase learns what money is:

I am sure he is a nice fellow. But yeah AliG bout sums it up.

[vmachine]

Doesn't pretty much every piece of software and hardware come with presets? And don't a lot of the bigger companies sell additional presets that are notoriously not good? And doesn't pretty much every decent artist either a)modify these presets b)makes their own or c)knows where to find the good 3rd party stuff. ??

Just don't buy it or don't use the preset stuff if it makes you feel uncomfortable. Whatever extras the company releases doesn't detract from the core functionality that made it famous. And on the other side of things, Ableton worked with Cycling 74 to create max4live which is probably the most uncommercial, non-mainstream possible project imaginable for a mainstream sequencer.

[3phase]

Originally Posted by thefunnel

Let's hear your non-generic, awesome, universally original tunes 3phase. Really. If you're making white noise surge plinky plonk bongo v-neck & big ass shades tech-house, I wanna know.

he guys my music has nothing to with the topic..

and musical success or unsuccess is no qualification for anything..

Time in the scene .experiance with the industry.. that are more valid qualifications here..

and beside my involvement in the german and especially berlin techno scene or better world..because its quite special really..

i am playing in bands since i am 14..
i had my first release with 16
My first europe tour with 18.. but the drummer junked the torurbus away..so i moved to berlin and replaced him with a drum machine..
I had my first own recording studio with 23..
Every recording except one was released.. so it was no demo studio,..
I worked as front of house engineer for various bands.. I was working as house engineer for the berlin loft concert club
I often tuned the soundsystem of the planet club in berlin
sometimes The Tresor club..when it went all too bad.. and some big raves outside of berlin..
I ve build various big studios incl 2 complete tv stations (audio).. means.. planing of the technical installation..wiring..patchpannels..furniture design setting the system in function..measuring it.. repairing and modding the ssl or studer desks aso.

I was involved in certain hardware development projects,.from remotes for surround desks to valve microphone preamps..
I tune and repair synthezisers..
I ve personal and stage experiance with almost any synth and sequencer system that was distributed in europe. hard and software..
A thing most developers dont have, as we can see in many of their implementations that often fall behind 80´s standards.

I work with software sequencers since C64 days..
I was among the first, when not the first, that realized abletons L8 crashbugs.. and told them that they are midi related.. needed them half a year to get to it..
But before that they dropped my support case because i refused to explain them my studio setup in detail.. Stupid question anyway when you have an obvious internal crashbug that has nothing to do with my setup.. but we are in germany.. and you have to fill the form otherwise they wont listen to your warning ..

Typical.. but not with me.. I am not their employe or slave. They should be happy to get bug reports.. But they called them my bugs as i would be a newb and not knowing how to handle my setup.
An ableton concept..user bugs.. its so many that each user can have an own one...
I told them that its in any case their bug and not mine and that it might be just the tip of the iceberg.. as we know now i was 100% right..

So when i call them a rather stupid company it´s out of personal experience and not totally unfounded.



Is that enough to be entiteld for an own opinion about what is going on on the electronic music market?

Please note : I dont think that i have to be right with my assumptions and opinions.
But to convince me otherwise i need to hear some serious arguments..
Something better than.. "it was allways like this.." or.." the world is changing" bla bla..

Anyway, the quality of my own music past ,present or future has nothing to do with the validity of my statements.

[msl]

The damage has already been done, and not by prefab loop makers. Its the prefab star/celebrity system, fast buck mentality. Commodification of art, and the ensuing devaluation of music, etc, etc.

3Phase you would have to change the world first.



.

[3phase]

Originally Posted by vmachine

Doesn't pretty much every piece of software and hardware come with presets? And don't a lot of the bigger companies sell additional presets that are notoriously not good? And doesn't pretty much every decent artist either a)modify these presets b)makes their own or c)knows where to find the good 3rd party stuff. ??

Just don't buy it or don't use the preset stuff if it makes you feel uncomfortable. Whatever extras the company releases doesn't detract from the core functionality that made it famous. And on the other side of things, Ableton worked with Cycling 74 to create max4live which is probably the most uncommercial, non-mainstream possible project imaginable for a mainstream sequencer.

Again.. its not about presets.. even when its a bit whimpy when you cant program your own synth.. since the DX7 there is a patch market for sounds..
Since the first consumer samplers there are sample libarys..

Thats normal.. thats instrumental sounds.. they dont hold content.. just atmosphere and inspiration on how to play them..some synth sounds dont let you much options .. but anyway.

These presets are for lazy people but dont hold any musical content in themself..
They are OK

And than there are the loops with musical content...

Either stolen form other peoples records..

Or preproduced and genre specific to allow people to fake certain contemprary edm styles..

And theese are the ones in question..
The generic music tools..

Some electronic music haters call all electronic music generic..
These content holding loops make them being right.
Do we want that?