the sell out continues

[erikdrink]

Originally Posted by Greg_KPX

no shitty commercial music has been recorded in Pro Tools?

[razorblade]

If you really want to see something funny, you should go check the site in question where post the same thread, then he pretends not to be 3phase...

Needless to say, Not-3phase approves of this thread, and thinks the real
3phase is a genius.

It is performance art of the highest magnitude.

Bravo, sir!

[Captain Proton]

Originally Posted by gremlin moon

This collection of loops though is SWEET
http://www.stockmusicstore.com:8080/...ffffffd11ac756

OMG I have just wasted 30mins listening to the generic crap on that site. It's the same guy isn't it doing all the music from a Yamaha Portasound synth?

[razorblade]

I owe 3 Phase an apology.

Apparently, Ableton released a loop pack called "3Phase's Greatest Rants" and this 3phase wannabe Blo just downloaded it and is trying to pass it off as his own over there.

It was the "I cant' spell gud" break that gave it away.

But little does he know that 3Phase's unique phrasing and style is obvious even when wielded by some 15 year old poser that was too lazy to write his own diatribe.

Fortunately the mods stopped this blatant abuse in it's tracks.

3phase should sue this bastard for plagiarism. I'd have his back.

[razorblade]

May I also say...

He warned us this would happen.

He is the Kwisatz Haderach

[mage2k]

Erm, Ableton has been releasing sound packs in various forms, covering a variety of musical and sonic styles, from acoustic to synthetic, for a while now: https://www.ableton.com/shop/categor...oducts?tag=all

[kcearl]

ordered....thanks for the heads up

[oldeanalogueguy]

Originally Posted by 3phase

And the culture vulture award of 11/2011 goes again to Ableton...tutt

For this

https://www.ableton.com/de/shop/more...----DL1E--__--


Again they are supplying the masses with generic tech house production tools and damaging the scene with that.

Ableton live the new magix music maker? Infantile toy or professional daw?

I think they should focus on getting their buggy software finaly sorted out and functional improved, instead trying to make some extra bucks with cheasy sound sets.

Especially when this sets have such a generic character and supporting all the fakers around so very well.

So young electronic producer please be aware of that the company that sold you the tool to do music is destroying the market that could maybe make you a pro one day aswell. And even worse...They are promoting the flase attitude that fake music or the use of generic beats or sounds is an alwright thing to do. Enemies of the scene..

I hope the other daw companys wake up and supply us with an alternative.

Soon please...

if you are worried about that
then you need to look for a new career

yes, it will squeeze out the d listers and hurt the c list folks
but if you are truly good you should not care

[tonemaker]

Originally Posted by 3phase

thats all waht you have to say when a comopany that is supposed to produce a professional daw is selling genre specific generic loops?

i guess that supper offer of the magix music maker 2.0 company is made for guys like you.. but please dont consider yourself as producers or musicans when you dont get it up without professional aid.

A company that is in production tools shouldnt promote generic music production. In the last consequence customers of this tools want an automatic music production software.. so a producer for themself in the box..
what a neat idea

In any case its a pretty bad sign for a company like ableton to get into this market. Careless and unresponsible.


And dont call me troll just because i ve an opinion on this item. YOu better start to form an own one.. IS theese "dont care dont matters attitude" part of your musical style too? i guess generic loops are a blessing than..

But for a major daw manufactor its way to low profile. How can one take them serious than?


And one question to the fanboy armada... you are all from the US?

This isn't my battle, and the fanbois and haters surely outnumber the freethinkers, but I tend to agree with some of your points here. I am now prepared to be flamed along side you, bro. hahaha

Peace, but I'm not sticking around in this thread because it's futile. But I hear what you're saying. It's simlar with FL Studio and all ready-made kit packages. It's part of the studio illusion. They are just trying to make money off it since they can. It's probably a growing market while much of the rest of the audio industry is wilting.

[frawnchy]

Originally Posted by Greg_KPX

7.1 will be the "vintage" underground version people will load up on their oldschool laptops in the year 2031... actually no, they'll have windows xp emulators on quantum wristwatch projector computers with mind control.

20 years and THAT's all you expect??? XP?
Jeez... Where have all the dreamers gone?
Intra-eyelid projection, and cornea control of Windows 9 inside a visual sphere by then or I'm out (hope this site's still here in 20 years!).

@3phase: Give up the ghost. People are making the music they want to make on the platform they want to use. You're a dissenting voice falling on deaf ears, like a religious nut, or, for that matter, an atheist nut.
Yoozer summed it up perfectly: if it doesn't stand to the test, it shouldn't stand.
Simple. As.

[frawnchy]

Originally Posted by rolo

Man... GS used to be such a great site. Pros and pro tips abound. Everywhere i look now this site has bs lined arund the block. Newbys and idiots abound.
To the mods... There should be a moron filter tool on this site.

Amazingly, 3phase is (was) a very influential producer. He's just turned into a perennial whinger.
Sometimes, when the mood grabs him, he talks tech and delivers.
But mostly he's the DAW equivalent of teenage girls bitching about Adele's weight.

[boon]

i heard once that there were these things called loops and samples and construction kits that existed on this thing called a CD-ROM.

also, i heard about some other software that came with samples and loops once.. just once though and it was so long ago i can't remember what it was called.

and srsly.. wtf? ableton is at V8.x and suddenly they are selling out and killing music? lols.

HOME TAPING IS KILLING MUSIC!

[MarcB]

WTF is tech-house?

[edit]

just googled it. sounds like hard house but lacking in the house and hard bits.

[Liquid360]

Yes. Generic. Instead of learning a real instrument, you get to punch in the sounds - that aren't even like real drum machines - into a computer, which never deviates from the tempo, doesn't understand "groove" and and any amateur can now lay down tight drum tracks. This used to be the difference between a shitty band and a good one - the quality of their drummer would immediately show the A&R guys whether they'd have to go or whether they'd be signed

1984, I remember the controversy back then: Everyone was afraid they would be replaced by machines. It didn't happen, it just sparked new styles. (Although I'm sure it hurt the big band and classical players somewhat, but those guys were never really on the radio back then anyway because small 4 piece bands had "stole" their work already)...

Sample libraries are NOT going to de-rail the entire thing anymore than they did in the 90's.

[plaid_emu]

Originally Posted by frawnchy

20 years and THAT's all you expect??? XP?
Jeez... Where have all the dreamers gone?
Intra-eyelid projection, and cornea control of Windows 9 inside a visual sphere by then or I'm out (hope this site's still here in 20 years!).

Sheeeit... I just hope we're all still alive in 20 years.

If gearslutz is still around, I'll consider it a bonus.

[3phase]

Originally Posted by Liquid360

1984, I remember the controversy back then: Everyone was afraid they would be replaced by machines. It didn't happen, it just sparked new styles. (Although I'm sure it hurt the big band and classical players somewhat, but those guys were never really on the radio back then anyway because small 4 piece bands had "stole" their work already)...

Sample libraries are NOT going to de-rail the entire thing anymore than they did in the 90's.

You guys really dont get the point or? Sounds more that you prefab content users sweet talk yourself in it.

There wont be any new styles that emerge from prefab content.. The preset content of early music computers might have leaked in the one track or other..
But the genres emerged from creative inventions of people that really played the new instrument.
Yes..they are instruments..as a mixing desk and som fx machines are instruments.
Dub mixing is a foundation of all techno house styles.. ITB people tend to forget that because thats the one thing that dont works too well ITB.. to get an instrument like relation with your mix equipment.

A loop construction kit for deep house wont contribute to the deephouse style. It contributes to its fast decay. And the chance of new styles emerging from loopsets is little.. except maybe some chinese people try to do folk songs with that loops. But thats not the target audience of the product.. Like in the old times of sample cd´s wher the premade content loops was really produced for farmers. As you can see by the cover style of the product packages.

Its more likely that the recording of some street noise will cause a new style than generic techno lines.. Theese loops are part of the ongoing enviromental sound polution.. banalizing music..bringing it closer to the fine and pure state of plain noise. Money making with generic products. Dont works with the records anymore..lets do loop packs instead to provide others with the tools to do even more generic techno music.
A target audience that dot even gets that the stuff the put out is too far from brilliant to be even played to close friends.

Good example dubstep.. 2 years ago the loop ***** industry started to target dubstep..where is it now? what a sad youtube hyped pisstake is happening here... you can say dubstep has reached the us.. but together with the prefabricated content packages. The result? ugly... really ugly.. a shame-- just like if house and techno never would have happened..


I live in Berlin. a city where many professional musicans in the electro alike styles from around the world like to settle for a while.. and i tell you..
When they use prefab materials they are very shy about that because its commonly considred the most uncool and unprofessional thing you can do..

You just dont do that in the international league. It´s a provincial newb thing to do..

And it would be good to keep it at that place !! Thats my main request


Because that little moral about artistical integrity is the factor that rejuvinates the scene every few years when the hord of fakers that comes up in regular intervals has bored the crowd out of the clubs.. and therefore the dj´s need to resort to new originals again that come up with some new musical and sound design style ideas.. That gets the crowd interested again.. the clubs gets hot again..Some young artists make a big career. and than the copycat armada starts to fake it all again..

A semi natural cycle that gets now interupted by the need and greed in the industry.
Young people get interested in doing electronic music themself again..
But now they are not underground guys that need to buy cheap second hand gear anymore..
They became the main target of the audio industry now. And this industry wants to keep them happy.
A lack of talent shouldnt stop them from buying the products. Now and in the near future. The guy that buys an ableton live today might buy the Manley tomorow.
Thats a nice and altruistic moove really.
But that is what is damaging the electronic music scene. The greed of the manufactors. They are not our friends anymore..we are theire cows.. or their bitches that provide the content for the cows..

To many electronic producers cant sell records anymore..so why dont sell sounds and sequences to the wannabes...


Enabletoned masses of newbs that like the idea to be a music producer just by arranging a few prefab loops..
Like in the childrens toy magix music maker..but now for adults..The magix user has grown up it is an ableton user now... "professional" ..real vst plug ins .. remote via i-pad..high techy and blinky... just the content still on magix music maker level.. A provincial kids and newbs level..And that discrepancy sucks somehow.

The DAw manufactors removed the diss on the use of prefab content by selling the stuff under theire own name.

And so sanctonizing the most uncool thing to do in electronic music.. .

Just to make their customers feel more comfortable with their magix music maker image.

And sorry.. just because you have payed the suffering loop whoore for the loop dont makes it less fraud to the audience.

You dont do own music with bought loop content as you dont recieve love by having sex with a hooker.

When you steal content do it like a man and take it from the records of the artists you like.. and not like a week little whimp that pays some dollars to dont have the risk to get sewed to get the sound alike fx..the "inspiration"..

What is happening right now is that the playing around with the gear and having a blinky studio setup at home is a new hobby..
Maybe there are areas where you can attract girls with that.. in asia maybe?
In any case its not about the music its about the bling.. and therfore its enough that illusion is complete..

Ableton now starts to provide tools that get the monotony out of the typical loop sets.. so actually taking even the hard arranging and re edit work from theire users.
Actually damaging the business of real electronic music producers with that.
When there would be an electronic producers union they probably would sew Ableton for that.. But without such a union..

It will get worse before it gets better..

The music itself will surrive that.. The actual techno and house styles? rather not really.. The fakers will stop after a while..when they got bored.. or wise.. without own talent its an absolute waste of money to invest in studio gear and instruments.. In former times where the boys invested for the same reason in theire cars and motor cycles they had at least a transport..

You will loose the interest as soon you get a grl friend..or find something you are good in.. like gardening or so.. more rewarding hobbys than wasting the electronic music scene..

However..up to this point.. Its important to know.. That whatever people say..

The use of prefab materials is the most uncool thing an electronic producer can do..

You want to be one of the unccol kids? go along.. no problem..ther are plenty of your type.. have fun..

But in case you want to be one of the cool kids..

DONT BELIVE THE HYPE.. ITS A TRAP.
But when you have some own talent its probably anyway boring for you to let the others have the fun with the machine drum and you just have the ableton arranger to toy with theire end results.. And you can be sure,. they wont put the really hot stuff on the loopkits.. just the second choice stuff...

anyway. Its good that we talked about it. Wont help--in reality it just has started.. Its new that people claim that there is no problem with second hand music.. Thats just the pre curse of more of that stuff to come, and I see real auto composing softwares on the horizon.

When the demand is in faking music production.. it would be acctually wise to leave the funpart to the user.. By now the unfun part of mooving blocks and arranging is left to the user..and the toying around with synths the loop guys do for you..

How stupid is that?

[sftd]

I saw you mentioned Magix Music Maker, do you know any good tutorials for it?

Sent from my PC36100 using Gearslutz.com App

[Dubtek71]

I dunno...

I can't decide wether I want to cash in on the sell out...
or
Occupy Ableton and demand vintage gear or free loop packs.

[Brian!]

Originally Posted by 3phase

You guys really dont get the point or? Sounds more that you prefab content users sweet talk yourself in it.

There wont be any new styles that emerge from prefab content.. The preset content of early music computers might have leaked in the one track or other..
But the genres emerged from creative inventions of people that really played the new instrument.
Yes..they are instruments..as a mixing desk and som fx machines are instruments.
Dub mixing is a foundation of all techno house styles.. ITB people tend to forget that because thats the one thing that dont works too well ITB.. to get an instrument like relation with your mix equipment.

A loop construction kit for deep house wont contribute to the deephouse style. It contributes to its fast decay. And the chance of new styles emerging from loopsets is little.. except maybe some chinese people try to do folk songs with that loops. But thats not the target audience of the product.. Like in the old times of sample cd´s wher the premade content loops was really produced for farmers. As you can see by the cover style of the product packages.

Its more likely that the recording of some street noise will cause a new style than generic techno lines.. Theese loops are part of the ongoing enviromental sound polution.. banalizing music..bringing it closer to the fine and pure state of plain noise. Money making with generic products. Dont works with the records anymore..lets do loop packs instead to provide others with the tools to do even more generic techno music.
A target audience that dot even gets that the stuff the put out is too far from brilliant to be even played to close friends.

Good example dubstep.. 2 years ago the loop ***** industry started to target dubstep..where is it now? what a sad youtube hyped pisstake is happening here... you can say dubstep has reached the us.. but together with the prefabricated content packages. The result? ugly... really ugly.. a shame-- just like if house and techno never would have happened..


I live in Berlin. a city where many professional musicans in the electro alike styles from around the world like to settle for a while.. and i tell you..
When they use prefab materials they are very shy about that because its commonly considred the most uncool and unprofessional thing you can do..

You just dont do that in the international league. It´s a provincial newb thing to do..

And it would be good to keep it at that place !! Thats my main request


Because that little moral about artistical integrity is the factor that rejuvinates the scene every few years when the hord of fakers that comes up in regular intervals has bored the crowd out of the clubs.. and therefore the dj´s need to resort to new originals again that come up with some new musical and sound design style ideas.. That gets the crowd interested again.. the clubs gets hot again..Some young artists make a big career. and than the copycat armada starts to fake it all again..

A semi natural cycle that gets now interupted by the need and greed in the industry.
Young people get interested in doing electronic music themself again..
But now they are not underground guys that need to buy cheap second hand gear anymore..
They became the main target of the audio industry now. And this industry wants to keep them happy.
A lack of talent shouldnt stop them from buying the products. Now and in the near future. The guy that buys an ableton live today might buy the Manley tomorow.
Thats a nice and altruistic moove really.
But that is what is damaging the electronic music scene. The greed of the manufactors. They are not our friends anymore..we are theire cows.. or their bitches that provide the content for the cows..

To many electronic producers cant sell records anymore..so why dont sell sounds and sequences to the wannabes...


Enabletoned masses of newbs that like the idea to be a music producer just by arranging a few prefab loops..
Like in the childrens toy magix music maker..but now for adults..The magix user has grown up it is an ableton user now... "professional" ..real vst plug ins .. remote via i-pad..high techy and blinky... just the content still on magix music maker level.. A provincial kids and newbs level..And that discrepancy sucks somehow.

The DAw manufactors removed the diss on the use of prefab content by selling the stuff under theire own name.

And so sanctonizing the most uncool thing to do in electronic music.. .

Just to make their customers feel more comfortable with their magix music maker image.

And sorry.. just because you have payed the suffering loop whoore for the loop dont makes it less fraud to the audience.

You dont do own music with bought loop content as you dont recieve love by having sex with a hooker.

When you steal content do it like a man and take it from the records of the artists you like.. and not like a week little whimp that pays some dollars to dont have the risk to get sewed to get the sound alike fx..the "inspiration"..

What is happening right now is that the playing around with the gear and having a blinky studio setup at home is a new hobby..
Maybe there are areas where you can attract girls with that.. in asia maybe?
In any case its not about the music its about the bling.. and therfore its enough that illusion is complete..

Ableton now starts to provide tools that get the monotony out of the typical loop sets.. so actually taking even the hard arranging and re edit work from theire users.
Actually damaging the business of real electronic music producers with that.
When there would be an electronic producers union they probably would sew Ableton for that.. But without such a union..

It will get worse before it gets better..

The music itself will surrive that.. The actual techno and house styles? rather not really.. The fakers will stop after a while..when they got bored.. or wise.. without own talent its an absolute waste of money to invest in studio gear and instruments.. In former times where the boys invested for the same reason in theire cars and motor cycles they had at least a transport..

You will loose the interest as soon you get a grl friend..or find something you are good in.. like gardening or so.. more rewarding hobbys than wasting the electronic music scene..

However..up to this point.. Its important to know.. That whatever people say..

The use of prefab materials is the most uncool thing an electronic producer can do..

You want to be one of the unccol kids? go along.. no problem..ther are plenty of your type.. have fun..

But in case you want to be one of the cool kids..

DONT BELIVE THE HYPE.. ITS A TRAP.
But when you have some own talent its probably anyway boring for you to let the others have the fun with the machine drum and you just have the ableton arranger to toy with theire end results.. And you can be sure,. they wont put the really hot stuff on the loopkits.. just the second choice stuff...

anyway. Its good that we talked about it. Wont help--in reality it just has started.. Its new that people claim that there is no problem with second hand music.. Thats just the pre curse of more of that stuff to come, and I see real auto composing softwares on the horizon.

When the demand is in faking music production.. it would be acctually wise to leave the funpart to the user.. By now the unfun part of mooving blocks and arranging is left to the user..and the toying around with synths the loop guys do for you..

How stupid is that?

tl;dr

[verve92]

Originally Posted by Brian!

zzzzzzzzzzzzz, another 3phrase Ableton hate thread.

b/w

If anyone ends up shooting up Ableton headquarters, I'm nominating dude as a prime suspect.

Well said DAWs are like any other type of gear- it's about the users needs!
Me I don't do like much live gigs anymore with two kids, but so many guys who do say Ableton Live is the best for that.
Me I like Cubase- just like the workflow. Just me.

[Yoozer]

I'm going to enclose this in quotes because god help me if there's not going to be some fool who's going to just hit QUOTE and write 1 sentence as a comment.

Originally Posted by Yoozer

Which ones?

It does not require a fanboy or a hater, just a logical deconstruction to show where the gaps in the argument are.

So you've never actually worked with FL Studio? Otherwise you'd know it has some tricks up its sleeve that Steinberg left dying back when it transitioned from a pure MIDI sequencer to something complete.

Let's enumerate the arguments again.

They don't. Other companies do, Ableton puts 'm on their site and gives 'm a shout-out.

3phase can't even explain why this is, other than "it's bad" and "it's a crime".

People need oxygen. Corporations need continuity. Bills have to be paid, and when programmers are working on an update that's sent for free to existing customers, no money comes in, except from new customers - and that number's never going to be as big as the flood you get when a new version is released and people either start to pay for the product or for the upgrade.

If this allows Ableton to get some extra cash to survive so that they can improve the product, add functionality, and put it into 64-bit mode - great.

If you don't want to sell out, try doing what you want to do for free.

You've sold out. 3phase sold out. Everyone here already sold out, even if they're on the dole.

The problem of having an argument like this is that it only takes one ill-thought sentence to grab attention but 3 paragraphs to defuse it.

1) Loops aren't new. Zero G's "DataFile" CD from 20 years ago already offered a handy selection that meant that people no longer had to make samples or pick 'm up from various sources. It's positively ancient, so it would've destroyed the music scene a long time ago already, so railing against Ableton that they do this now smacks of a personal crusade, not of any reasonable criticism.

2) Loops aren't unique. After that CD, a boatload of 'm followed; Synth Mania has some great examples with vintage CDs. (the music scene is still intact). I could understand it if you'd fight against the great evil barbarian horde of sample CD publishers, but again, picking out Ableton specifically smacks of a personal crusade, not of any reasonable criticism.

So, let's take 3phase's noble fight up a notch and decry the evils of ALL sample companies, because to do otherwise would be disingenious, and let's revisit that argument again:

"Loops destroy the music scene".

This is a weird sentence. What do those loops do? Well, by using them, presumably the quality of the music is lowered - instead of that you do things yourself you use someone else's work.

First of all, someone else's work was offered at a price on a free market. If they didn't want to sell it, they shouldn't have offered it in the first place. If they're not supposed to - why not? It's a free market. There's a demand. There are no victims here.

Or are there?

Let's take a look at them.

Victim nr 1: the amateur producer.

They're amateurs. You were an amateur, I was an amateur, we all made horrible music we'd rather forget about with limited gear and no knowledge whatsoever of what was "right" and what wasn't; all we had was enthusiasm and a desire to emulate our idols.

Is an amateur going to break into that highly elite scene? No. Why not? Because you can smell an amateuristic production from miles away! The first attempts lack coherency, taste in choice of instruments, and no polish. Even if you have someone making all the samples for you, you still lack coherency and taste in choice of instruments; the whole point about being an amateur is that you've got no clue about what goes where.

So they'll muck around with the "pro" loops and "pro" samples and they're not getting anywhere because it sucks in terms of structure. Worse, because there are thousands of these bedroom producers that all get the same worn-out sample libraries and they all try the same thing at the same time, so you get a lot of shitty music.

Are they victims? Only of themselves; of thinking that they could instantly get to "pro" level if they only had the right materials. Likewise, amateur photographers think they'd be at Ansel Adams level if they only had the right lenses.

These people dig a hole for themselves. The loops don't matter in this case; it is their own attitude that does them in, because they want everything without doing effort and without learning.

Can you really call them "victims" if it's their own rotten attitude that causes this in the first place?

Let's look at where their music ends up: record companies.

As 3phase already mentioned, such amateur productions end up in a stack of demos, and then they get shoved into the bin, because the people at the record companies should be clued in enough that they recognize a shitty composition directly (even if the audience wouldn't). There's no imagination in there, no future, and you want someone who can deliver the goods instead of being me-too. Thousands of amateurs try the same thing in their bedrooms, so that music is common as dirt.

Unless of course these people are grossly incompetent and release the material anyway. Surely that wouldn't happen, would it?

Which brings us to victim nr 2: The scene.

The scene, unlike the unwashed, uneducated masses, consist of people with intelligence. They're better than the regular consumer who just switches on the radio and doesn't have taste, because they recognize and listen to good music, unlike those uncultured swine who are happy with whatever pile of shit is dumped in front of 'm, as long as it's shiny.

So, would the scene accept such a label with grossly incompetent A&R managers? It'd be dumped. Perhaps one bad release would be forgivable as a fluke, if someone had a bad Monday morning. But a continuous stream of bad, cookie-cutter crap? Hell no - that's why they're the scene in the first place, because these people are on a higher plane than cookie-cutter crap.

So we've now shown that there are no victims unless the gatekeepers have massively failed, and if that happened, the solution is to make a new scene because the old one is obviously so braindead that they're lost.

[Acid Mitch]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

1) Loops aren't new. Zero G's "DataFile" CD from 20 years ago already offered a handy selection that meant that people no longer had to make samples or pick 'm up from various sources.
.

And before that there was things like the Mellotron that gave people loops

[Brian!]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

I'm going to enclose this in quotes because god help me if there's not going to be some fool who's going to just hit QUOTE and write 1 sentence as a comment.

haha, sorry man.

[Radiance]

First of all, I don't like any preset, drum rack or sound in LIVE. However, I do love the program. Just don't buy their sounds.

BUT, you should see this move from their perspective. Ableton is taking it's time to perfect the next upgrade. They don't generate much cash flow doing this AND they're not rushing things either. This is admirable.
In the mean time they try to make an honest buck buy selling sounds. These are endorsed artist who make these for them...not much work involved for Ableton.
Ableton just acts as a store front.

I much rather prefer this scenario than a useless upgrade every half year or so, just to generate cash.

[peter_martin]

Originally Posted by 3phase

And the culture vulture award of 11/2011 goes again to Ableton...tutt

For this

https://www.ableton.com/de/shop/more...----DL1E--__--


Again they are supplying the masses with generic tech house production tools and damaging the scene with that.

Ableton live the new magix music maker? Infantile toy or professional daw?

I think they should focus on getting their buggy software finaly sorted out and functional improved, instead trying to make some extra bucks with cheasy sound sets.

Especially when this sets have such a generic character and supporting all the fakers around so very well.

So young electronic producer please be aware of that the company that sold you the tool to do music is destroying the market that could maybe make you a pro one day aswell. And even worse...They are promoting the flase attitude that fake music or the use of generic beats or sounds is an alwright thing to do. Enemies of the scene..

I hope the other daw companys wake up and supply us with an alternative.

Soon please...

Hey buddy, so I remember your releases from the past as well as some of the posted examples of some of your older music. They where pretty cool for the time but last time I check when have you made something relevant?

How is creating this tread actually pushing music forward complaining about a tool?

Man I whine some days too about all the b.s. but I still get lock step into my studio, learning my tools, and spent thousands of hours the past year and a half creating something 'new'. and to be quite honest very revolutionary instead of b*tching here on gearslutz about the tools. I'm not trying to act cocky, but I am extremely confident in my new sound... You should find your new sound too, instead of being stuck in 1995 land.

Its not the tools brocef, its your attitude. I'm not trying to be an a$$ here, I have to pull up my own boot straps and talk to myself in my brain saying the same thing. Its kind of harsh, but, it has pushed me forward and made me a lot nicer person (generally, )

Seriously, your a pretty talented dude and has put out tracks being played back in the day when I was still living with mummy and daddy. So giving credit where its due, but things change, and it ain't 95 any more.

Unless you had an incredible crew, ton of gear, back then doing stuff live was playing keyboards over a DAT tape...
Compared with putting together a real 'performance' with Live vs. playing to a pre-sequenced DAT tape, these days are far more sophisticated than before. Even listen to the type of general electronic dance music, totally different era.

I know this because my best friend grew up and did some super huge tracks back in the day with D:FUSE as Expansion. Instead of being stuck in the past, and trying to rehash hid biggest track like "Feel" (when hanging out with Sasha many moons ago with Shane, Sash stated it never left his record box for two years). Thats impressive feat, esp since the guy can be pretty fickle with things, and Shane understood its time to move forward not living in the 'glory days'

Trust me, I'm learning from his example and attitude from that.
Instead of complaining about it, he is pushing the envelope on electronic music in a way that blows my mind instead of complain about all the new shiney tools out there. He went in and got his hands dirty...

So your complaining about a tool that can actually break an electronic artist into a really live creation environment on stage. YOu can create all new sequences on the fly, performing keys over top of it triggering stuff, twisting knobs, whatever, I think its AMAZING. Now when I sit down to sequence and 'record' my new song I know it inside and out, knob movement, keys, where I want stuff to land. Instead of playing legos on a sequencer I'm performing my compositions for the first time ever, its amazing. I pratice my songs like a real band, getting what I want tight, and live, no pre-sequenced BS. My sounds and composition are done, like a 'real' band does, and then I rehearse, and rehearse, and rehearse.

Plus when I'm starting some live shows next year, I'll know my songs inside and out and maybe one night I can create a longer track or mix of it, perform it differently than the last show from New York. Man I can see ENDLESS possibilities because of this and the future of electronic music is brighter than it ever was.

Try that with ANY other daw for electronic music, you can not...

One mans opinion, and it works for me, maybe not you. But I don't care, I'll tell you my opinion and what works for me as you might discover some of these things might actually work for you and push the music forward.

Thats why I still kick around here on GS, because you can learn from some of these rants.
I know I have.

When you understand what Ableton can do, and you can use hardware, etc, you'll find its the first point in electronic music history where an artist can 'jam' on stage.

By no means any disrespect, but man I WISH someone would have told me this 5 years ago. "Peter, your attitude is sh*t, get back to work and practice your a$$ off more, things have changed since when you began producing music".

Would have saved me a lot of time.

[kcearl]

what is the best microphone for rap?

[3phase]

Originally Posted by peter_martin

Hey buddy, so I remember your releases from the past as well as some of the posted examples of some of your older music. They where pretty cool for the time but last time I check when have you made something relevant?

How is creating this tread actually pushing music forward complaining about a tool? bla bla...

??? are you suggesting that only people that do something relevant are allowed to be opinonated in and critical in public?

Ok.. than i must assume that you are not qualified to post in this thread as most of the others..right?
Besides.. I do something relevant any day. Even this is relevant because it seems to express such an rare and exotic opinion.
Beeing No1 of some underground dancecharts is no real qualifikation..
But having a background in the music scene from well over 30 years..experiance in various bands being on many stages and producing in classical analog studios before techno even happened.. and than beeing part of the techno game all the time.. from my own studios up to the big multimedia 7.1 thx certified movie mixing facilities i was involved building and equiping and setting in fuction and so on..

I am qualified for an opinion and my opinion is relevantm wheter you share taht or not.

I guess you just dont have the perspective to set the things into the right proportions because you probably all started by using ready made loops.

While i come from a time where we cutted our own tape loops to have loops going on and early digital delays with an hold switch was the coolest thing on the planet for us.. ready made loops? from where? outer space?

Sorry. the loop industry happened way later and they were parasites and culture vultures from day one..

And i am talking here not about preset sound designers that work for keyboard players...
Thats a service and the music is what people play with their hands on the keyboard..
The Musical content is still created by the user !!

A content holding loop is a different thing...

It started with percussion loops and drumbreaks because these are not protected by the copyright laws. And so it became a well used production trick in the second half of the 80´s to spice up tracks with some loops of undeclared orgin. Often self stolen like on ethno recordings..everybody did that..wasnt really genre specivic.

Even comercial loop productions openly stole from records..
But thats a crime..
Using it allready..but selling it?
Technical just the same as stealing the vocal hooks.. just..ther is a gap in the publishing rights law that assumes anything related to beat to be too primitive to be protected..
And excuse the jump..that will happen to edm in total when the trend continues..

Anyway..the first loops on the market based on a crime allready..

And than the next step..genre specivic content loops.. that came with the techno boom in the mid 90´s.- but the loops was so poor that nobody has seen there any danger..
Just..the fx they had was destructiv enough..suddenly there was tons of the most primitive techno ever..actually using the shitty loops..
But because at this time even the lamest copy cat knew that its uncool to use prefab content and so the hided it..by heavy distortion..and layering 3 of the loops on top of each other.. therfore the noise charackter of the pseudo techno back than..
And the stupid distributions bought all this stuff, mass makes more money than class,..and a few years later that all collapsed..because the "crowd" is not that stupid..they just need a little longer to react.. The big techno break down end of the 90´s as a result of plagitarism and greed. The distributions that earned the most money in the cheme and caused the lowering of the quality went bancrupt first..


I guess many of you just start at this point and just have seen the use of the loops and considred it normal..
Some maybe played the playstation game as kids, from which the magix music maker emerged,,and garage band aso..

Suddenly people tried to polish the bad image loop use had.. for comercial reasons.. of cause.. as said before..
The lack of talent shouldnt stop anybody to become a music producer and to buy the associated equipment..



And now we reach the next step of loop whooring now.. The auto variating loop.
And ableton on the forefront for that.. What started as a fraud towards drummers and percussionists now finaly becaomes a fraud towards the audience...

And thats defently enough reason to open the mouth when you have watched that sneaking process over 20 years.. When you think that thsi shiny new production world comes with a price you are wrong.. And again the price is to be paid in the future. Its your potential carreers that get sold here and cashed by the loop industry..

And its a big shame that companys like steinberg and ableton are on the forefront of this crime..

Its like selling nuklear powerstations to japan..

They justify the lame loop use.. and they provide the copy cats with tools that hide the use of the prefab content..

For what purpose? Instant user gratification? Or fraud enableton?

Like the landmines..they just produce a tool.. wether somebody uses it to fool and fake or just to hobby around is not there problem..



And the long yozer text..
the way the scene sorts this out is as in the end of the 90´s that it just collapses.. and only than real talent will have its time again.. Also my long text here is oart of the scee sorting it out.
People need to know that only lamos use prefab loops. Who says otherwise is a lamo :-)

And have you realized that since some propaganda around maybe 2-3 years ago declared loop use to be ok.. indirect..in youtube vids and ableton rectified rainer classes that conspoiracy started to happen..

since than the loop factorys pop out at any corner !!

Its the new gold rush.. it just has started and the short thime the needed to burry dubstep was impressive

No A&R can keep up with that perfectly faked content now and the amount of loops around.. and even getting that you listen to loops is getting difficult now..
Thank you ableton

All this yozer arguments are just bull... pop will not sort itself..it will eat itself...

and yozer boy.. inventing quotes is really bad style and a fraud aswell. YOu loop users are not so picky with quoting..i know.. but--please for the future.. dont put words oin my mouth.. i see this as a major offence .. much worse than calling me names or whatever !!!

However..

within the last 2 years it became violently appearant that a new generation of so called producers give a shit whether prefab loops are used or not..

THey come out of a dj culture..wher you just take and consume..but not create or produce. But this type wants the producer props now.. they pay for the products that are made for producers..and ..they need content..

To supply them with that is a shabby business. For the artist involved an artistical bankruptcy declaration... And for the users just the proove of beeing a lamo.

When this is totaly normal and ok i request that the Lamos stay to theire lamo state and say it out loud.. I am a lamo.. but my frankensteinred productions rock..thanks to xy loops.. magix and the hits of XYZ that inspired me so hughly that my tracks sound allmost the same..

And on the side of the daw manufactors they shouldnt leave such politics to the music scene itself and dont be so greedy..


But instead leaving that to the music scene they are taking sides !!!

They supply the fakers with tools and tricks and by choosing generic genre specivic loops as a partner instrument they justify the use of such tools..


Can anybody tell me why it wasnt enough for ableton to keep theire partner instruments in the format of nice exotic instrument samples?
or well sampled stage grands and alike?

Why do they want genre specivic loops? To help theire cutomers to achive what?


Too bad that we cant really vote with our upgrade money..ther is no real alternative on the market for ableton live.

The older daw manufactors just ignored the needs of electronic music.beeing so proud by finaly beeing exeopted by the instrumental recording industry..
And since they worked for them..abandoing the pattern concept..aso.
Forgetting where they came from.. Beeing electronic music sequencers in the first place.. And we still suffer from thet development up to today..

Only Ableton kept the electronic music as a main target..and therfore the grew.. Because electronic music was on the rise..thanks to talented producers that didnt needed loop construction kits..

And now even normal rockbands start to use electronic elements ..on stage.. and suddenly even them want pattern based sequencers again..

The big DAW manufactors still sleeping

And the small ableton..that is actually the biggest from the profits.. but the smallest from the development team.. Arteficially crippled be the greed of the owners.. Goes down magix music maker lane and shoots electronic music in the back.

So all DAW manufactors unthankfull to the music that started their business.
Traitors to their roots.
Except Pro tools ..that was just a tape machine from the start.

So..

Abandon all hope, buy hardware.

[sorgenkind]

Originally Posted by Brian!

zzzzzzzzzzzzz, another 3phrase Ableton hate thread.

b/w

If anyone ends up shooting up Ableton headquarters, I'm nominating dude as a prime suspect.

leave 3phase alone... he's been banned from ableton forum because of his unconstructive attidute so let him vent, the poor guy is looking to get a life but in the meantime he's here around. I have to laugh at every post he does, you really can't take him seriously... I'm sure he eventually will get a life. eventually.

[splitradix]

This reminds me of the time that Johannes Gutenberg invented his printing press in 1436, it really damaged the literature scene as any idiot could then print their own books and newspapers.

[scottdavidson]

when you use phrases like "provincial kids and newbs" you merely come across as a snob and a bitter one at that.


Loops have been around almost as long as techno, even the piano part from strings of life is a looped recording played by someone other than Derrick May...does that make Derrick May a newb or provincial kid?

Loops arent the most creative way to make music but if they introduce young people into the production process then they surely have a place.

Provincial kids and newbs simply dont have the cash to start out with an all analouge studio, but i do know many young people who started their musical career by playing around with loops but who have gone on to great things and who have developed excellent studios, but your attitude would deny them that initial oppurtunity.

It looks like the music industry and technology has moved on and you really havent and it appears to have left you a little bitter, perhaps you should sell your gear and buy a nice set of golf clubs...i have a lovely set for sale as i need the cash for some hot new tech house loops