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-   -   ITB: it's still a lie (http://www.gearslutz.com/board/moan-zone/624045-itb-its-still-lie.html)

Analogue Mastering 22nd June 2011 04:23 PM

ITB: it's still a lie
 
Meticiously engineered, perfect emulation, most sought after hardware, sounds like outboard. Today after 15 years of VST(i) dissapointments i can confidently say: Plugins are still not there yet. And i doubt seriously if they will ever be.

Does that mean plugins are bad? NO definately not, they are good in certain things, however succesfully emulating hardware isn't one of them.

And everybody who tells differently has clearly never had the opprotunity to work with some high quality outboard.

There are many threads explaining pro's and cons in depth, just wanted to share above p.o.v.

Enjoy!

Steab 22nd June 2011 04:36 PM

And you clearly never had the opportunity to really work with good emulation plugins or your narrow brain persuaded itself to believe what you wanted to be true.


Enjoy your ignorance skillfully framed in your virtual reality bias!

-tc- 22nd June 2011 04:42 PM

Successfully emulating a piece of analogue hardware under all signal path conditions it might find itself in is probably not possible ... emulating it under specific conditions is imho :)

Analogue processing chains are inherently different from a chain of plug-ins because any given devices' output can be influenced by the unit after it in the chain ...

I believe that there actually have been and are really good emulations of hardware units ... them not sounding exactly the same as a different instance of the same model of hardware, set up in a completely different signal path does not mean it is an inaccurate emulation of the unit it was modelled on imo.

Just wanted to share the above pov in opposition to yours :)

Ponder!

PRobb 22nd June 2011 04:45 PM

I really don't give a flying f*ck if the plug sounds exactly like the hardware.
Does it do something useful?
Can I use it creatively?
Does it help me make stuff sound good?
That's all.

dankin 22nd June 2011 04:48 PM

Do we really need another one of these threads. A mix engineers skill has all to do with the outcome. Doesn't matter whether it was ITB, OTB or what DAW was used.

cosmik_debris 22nd June 2011 04:50 PM

it's a sign of the times...

no one here has anything better to do, or work on i guess so we're stuck regurgitating the same old story about how plugins suck and outboard is better.

thanks for the update dude! you're only the millionth person to bring this topic up here...can we discuss something else???

THIS FORUM IS GETTING ****IN' LAME!!!!!!!!!!

Buy outboard and shut the **** up. If you can't afford it then do something else with your time and stop wasting mine.

This debate is beyond pathetic. I'm sure you're mixes suck anyway. Tchad Blake did a great job on the last Black Keys record ITB!!!

I too love the sound of all those old records done on tape/analog gear. Slowly but surely I'm building my setup to be of that nature, but in the mean time I do what I can and don't bitch about it constantly.

So many pussies on these threads...

Analogue Mastering 22nd June 2011 04:51 PM

- Not a slow day heh
- yes plugs can do good things (but emulating HW isn't one of them)
- not saying worse or better, just different
- Yes it's the cook, not the kitchen
- yes nbr1 hits have made made fully ITB

All very true, but this SW can't EMULATE hardware very well.....cooge

-tc- 22nd June 2011 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmik_debris (Post 6776366)
do something else with your time and stop wasting mine

this is my favourite kind of amusingly hypocritical post heh

nobody is forcing you to read this stuff lol ... you're wasting your own time

Steab 22nd June 2011 04:59 PM

Oh, i get it.
 
Let's not feed the little troll.

-tc- 22nd June 2011 05:00 PM

Am I the only one who finds grumpy trolls chuckle-worthy rather than irritating?

theblue1 22nd June 2011 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCDBM (Post 6776304)
Meticiously engineered, perfect emulation, most sought after hardware, sounds like outboard. Today after 15 years of VST(i) dissapointments i can confidently say: Plugins are still not there yet. And i doubt seriously if they will ever be.

Does that mean plugins are bad? NO definately not, they are good in certain things, however succesfully emulating hardware isn't one of them.

And everybody who tells differently has clearly never had the opprotunity to work with some high quality outboard.

There are many threads explaining pro's and cons in depth, just wanted to share above p.o.v.

Enjoy!

What is the point of this post and thread? Does it bring some new, fresh viewpoint, some new understanding? Does it express an opinion that's never been expressed before or express an old thought in a new or novel way? Is it entertaining? Insightful? Edifying? Does it offer evidence to support its conclusions? Is it going to change anyone's mind? Or is it just one more guy banging on his own opinion?

Analogue Mastering 22nd June 2011 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timlloyd (Post 6776372)
this is my favourite kind of amusingly hypocritical post heh

nobody is forcing you to read this stuff lol ... you're wasting your own time

heh yeah the anger surrounding frustrated itb'ers is immense

Analogue Mastering 22nd June 2011 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblue1 (Post 6776398)
Or is it just one more guy banging on his own opinion?

spot on! been there, done that. ITB is great! but not for emulating the harware counterparts they're trying to mimic with their gui's which are generously shared on banners...

If you read well, you'll notice the distinction, right?!?

tha]-[acksaw 22nd June 2011 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRobb (Post 6776350)
I really don't give a flying f*ck if the plug sounds exactly like the hardware.
Does it do something useful?
Can I use it creatively?
Does it help me make stuff sound good?
That's all.

+1

I care less about a plugin sounding exactly the same as hardware, and more about a plugin having similar features and function of a relative hardware unit. Take the Pultec for example. There aren't a lot of hardware EQs that have the same features and function. You can boost and cut the same frequency with a Pultec. That's a feature that can create some interesting and useful results. Im happy as hell i can get the same features and function from a plugin. Even if the sound isn't 100% accurate.

With regard to sound, there was an interesting thread i was following where someone was comparing a hardware Massive Passive to the UAD plugin. The user ran the hardware MP into his Burl for conversion and said the hardware MP was "killing" the software. Then he tried the same test using his Digi 192 for conversion. At this point he said the difference between the hardware and software wast hardly noticeable.

This is a good demonstration that hardware is greatly effected by whats in the signal chain. If I model the behavior of piece of hardware using a 192, why would i think it would sound the same as if it had been done through a Apogee Rosetta? Its just not gonna happen. Which does kinda suggest that making a comparison of hardware to its software counterpart isnt gonna generate very accurate results, unless you happen to be using the exact signal chain that was used to model the hardware. So, when someone says "this plugins doesn't sound like my hardware", that should be obvious. Each piece of hardware is gonna sound slightly different depending on age, condition and the like. Not to mention the effect your signal chain is having on the sound. So its not an accurate comparison. Which, in turn, doesn't give an accurate result. At least not one that can be generalized.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Gearslutz.com App

Analogue Mastering 22nd June 2011 05:17 PM

No, seriously it has all been said and done before.
today I was playing again with both my WAVES API collection and my API 2500 and 5500 and, yeah you know.... it's a sort of different league all together.

Then I was restaging a mix, summing through my 8816, rather than my Cubase 6 subgroups with VCC, again different league.

Does that mean that the SW counterparts don't suffice? certainly not, they get the job done and if you don't know better you can be very happy with em. But my opening was just to share my experience that there IS that different league, so much more to gain. Both for shite and veteran engineers.

The other thing I notice is that the economy seems to hit people hard? it's not done anymore to appreciate outboard, people feel offended if you praise their qualities compared to thier VST(i) "counterparts"

There is a certain hostiliy about ITB'ers and them jumping the gun...... you don't need to defend yourselves, just be open and when u have the opportunity, play with some nice outboard and decide for yourself

LAST BUT NOT LEAST: sharing an oppinion which isn't neccecarily yours, is not by defition trolling right?!? At the end the forum is called Gearslutz, not Softslutz heh

britdick 22nd June 2011 05:17 PM

Blah, blah, blah.
 
Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah, blah, blah blah BLAH!

Blah blah blah blah blah blah.
Blah.
Much respect.
kfhkh

Mgr 22nd June 2011 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCDBM (Post 6776304)
Meticiously engineered, perfect emulation, most sought after hardware, sounds like outboard

Yep, think it's a lie too hooppie

Michael E 22nd June 2011 05:22 PM

Guys, please, post a links to your 100% ITB mixes. hittt

Analogue Mastering 22nd June 2011 05:23 PM

Hi man, thanks for sharing your opinion and someone else his internet review. ever thought that outboard and VST's can share the same DA? (in my case SSL Madi AX) you're happy, good for u, but there is soo much more out there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha]-[acksaw (Post 6776455)
+1

I care less about a plugin sounding exactly the same as hardware, and more about a plugin having similar features and function of a relative hardware unit. Take the Pultec for example. There aren't a lot of hardware EQs that have the same features and function. You can boost and cut the same frequency with a Pultec. That's a feature that can create some interesting and useful results. Im happy as hell i can get the same features and function from a plugin. Even if the sound isn't 100% accurate.

With regard to sound, there was an interesting thread i was following where someone was comparing a hardware Massive Passive to the UAD plugin. The user ran the hardware MP into his Burl for conversion and said the hardware MP was "killing" the software. Then he tried the same test using his Digi 192 for conversion. At this point he said the difference between the hardware and software wast hardly noticeable.

This is a good demonstration that hardware is greatly effected by whats in the signal chain. If I model the behavior of piece of hardware using a 192, why would i think it would sound the same as if it had been done through a Apogee Rosetta? Its just not gonna happen. Which does kinda suggest that making a comparison of hardware to its software counterpart isnt gonna generate very accurate results, unless you happen to be using the exact signal chain that was used to model the hardware. So, when someone says "this plugins doesn't sound like my hardware", that should be obvious. Each piece of hardware is gonna sound slightly different depending on age, condition and the like. Not to mention the effect your signal chain is having on the sound. So its not an accurate comparison. Which, in turn, doesn't give an accurate result. At least not one that can be generalized.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Gearslutz.com App


binarymilton 22nd June 2011 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCDBM (Post 6776369)
All very true, but this SW can't EMULATE hardware very well.....cooge

what's the point of that anyway? hardware already does a pretty good job of sounding like hardware.

Nobody complains about hardware not being able to emulate software.

I use Logic. I especially like the features Bitcrusher, ENverb and Distortion II (usually 'Bitey' or 'Nasty' mode, with Tone set somewhere near zero and the other dials somewhere near full). Is there a box that can make EXACTLY the same noises as those? Note: nothing other than completely identical will do, otherwise it's not a good emulation.

Arksun 22nd June 2011 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCDBM (Post 6776468)

There is a certain hostiliy about ITB'ers and them jumping the gun...... you don't need to defend yourselves, just be open and when u have the opportunity, play with some nice outboard and decide for yourself

This also goes both ways though. I've noticed people criticising soft-synths as not sounding good cause they don't sound exactly like some old analog synth. But in reality (at least in my opinion) it sounded as good, if not better in some cases, just not the same.

i.e., there tends to be an obsession not only with trying to recreate some old hardware unit 100%, but suggesting that the original unit is some kind of idea of perfection and that if it sounds at all different in any way, that automatically means it sounds 'worse'.

I disagree. Hardware units should provide inspiration to plugins yes, but nothing more. Creative tools are soo much more than that!.

drBill 22nd June 2011 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCDBM (Post 6776369)
All very true, but this SW can't EMULATE hardware very well.....cooge

I have the distinct memory of Michael Brauer saying the some of the UAD plugs were indistinguishable from his Manley gear when he tested them. Can't remember which plug as I don't own any UA or manley stuff, but I do remember him saying it. I'd tend to believe him over you......heh

Gharper23 22nd June 2011 05:32 PM

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3424/...6d81f4bb88.jpg

e-cue 22nd June 2011 05:38 PM

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFi...9/80519760.jpg

-tc- 22nd June 2011 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drBill (Post 6776528)
I have the distinct memory of Michael Brauer saying the some of the UAD plugs were indistinguishable from his Manley gear when he tested them. Can't remember which plug as I don't own any UA or manley stuff, but I do remember him saying it. I'd tend to believe him over you......heh

UAD Massive Passive iirc :)

SPL have also stated that their plug-in version of PassEQ measures and sounds closer to one channel of the emulated hardware unit than the other channel of the same hardware unit does!

good marketing blurb? yes
true? don't see why it can't be
me? bored of this discussion again already

ears2thesky 22nd June 2011 05:43 PM

So my free Fairchild compressor plug-in doesn't sound exactly like the real thing? Bummer. Am I to believe that I can't replace thousands of dollars worth of hardware in software form for a fraction of the comparative cost? Blasphemy!
I think we ought to celebrate good sound and not worry as much about authentic replication. Quite a few of the better plugs sound really close if not exactly like the outboard gear they emulate. So that's a good tool. Is it the same thing as an analog box? No. Can you get good sounds with it? Yes. Having these less expensive copies at our disposal means we can have a lot more channels with a variety of tones at our disposal. Cool.
We do the best with what we've got, and if we're any good, we still get good results.
Seems like a silly debate, though.

TheBigLongy 22nd June 2011 05:45 PM

I think one of the fundamental problems here is that some are comparing it to hardware they own, when the vst models have been made from hardware owned by the person/company creating them, or even hiring in.

Not all hardware sounds the same and with today's extremely capable software and audio engineers I would like to bet that a lot of the emulations are pretty much bang on the button, when you compare them to their hardware counterparts ;) (hired/company owned) where they were replicated, but would they sound the same as the one joe bloggs has down the street? I doubt it.

The only way to test it would be to take your material/songs to THE Studio that this software was made in, then use the exact same hardware there to compare.

Kre8 da RedBeerd 22nd June 2011 05:46 PM

I Think it is wrong to put out a plugin that claims to be EXACTLY like a hardware predecessor, but isn't, and at the same time overcharge for its purchase, simply because of the name association.

The elementary nature of the differences between hardware and software are going to guarantee a difference in performance. In fact, I'd go so far as to say there would even be a difference in performance between hardware units (vintage units in particular, due to aging) of the same make and model. The environments the units are/were located in, basic maintenance, amount of use, and even the cables used for I/Os are going to have an effect on the sound coming out of the unit, correct? Just as much as the difference in the same sound through two different sets of monitors.

This is all a preference thing. Those with maad experience with the original hardware are likely to have issues with the sounds of the virtual version of those units because they know what the real thing is supposed to sound like. Likewise, those with less experience are more likely to appreciate the digital replicas of the hardware units based simply on the modernity of the applications. There will be overlap of the opposite opinions, as well.

I Think taking offense to stuff said in here is crazy. In particular a thread such as this, which is OPINION based. Opinions are never wrong, just varied.

hitttPeacehittt

Sk106 22nd June 2011 05:47 PM

Whether a plug offers the prospect of emulating a real-life device, or not ... I don't really think of it that way much. I understand that Waves SSL bundle is meant to sound like an SSL channel strip, but however it does or not is not really my concern. I think of it more in terms of however something is a useful tool to achieve tasks that I need to achieve, no matter what the label says or what the initial concept behind the plug is.

This thing of blaming plugs for not being like their analog counterparts seems mostly centered on however an emulation attempt sounds realistic or not. If a plugin manufacturer makes such emulations because they feel they can, or if they do it because they understand that it’s a great selling point regardless … it’s probably not only one of those factors that is driving.

But it is probably true that direct emulations plugs by such as Waves, UA, IK Multimedia etc sounds the most like the IRL equivalent out of all plugins around. If one doesn't have a real Fairchild 670, and can't really get one, what is the next best option?

Overall, digital shouldn't really be imitating things spawned out of another nature - analog. It's a bit like using the digital toolbox to make an emulated cuckoo clock, with the ticking, featuring an emulated bird as well. Or creating a digital chewing gum. Nah, digital a bit of a new frontier with a bit of a different nature with new conditions. It should give birth to new ways, not imitating things evolved from a different framework. If someone wants a cuckoo clock, he'll get a cuckoo clock. An emulation can never be better than what it is: an imitation. If someone wants something the analog framework have difficulties provoding, then digital may present a solution, but a digital solution - not a digital emulation of a theoretical analog solution.

Analogue Mastering 22nd June 2011 05:48 PM

True agree with all, my rant is also more about the EQ/Dynamics dept, than the instrument dept. I like both my Sylenth and Voyager, horses for courses as they say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arksun (Post 6776510)
This also goes both ways though. I've noticed people criticising soft-synths as not sounding good cause they don't sound exactly like some old analog synth. But in reality (at least in my opinion) it sounded as good, if not better in some cases, just not the same.

i.e., there tends to be an obsession not only with trying to recreate some old hardware unit 100%, but suggesting that the original unit is some kind of idea of perfection and that if it sounds at all different in any way, that automatically means it sounds 'worse'.

I disagree. Hardware units should provide inspiration to plugins yes, but nothing more. Creative tools are soo much more than that!.



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