Can one seperate Art and Human Nature?

[littledog]

Art is an expression of the uniqueness of the human species. And music is perhaps the most primordial and deep-rooted of all the arts. Therefore I would submit, that it is difficult (if not impossible) to study or discuss the full aspects of recording music and completely ignore issues of human nature and human behavior.

Apparently this is not a universally held opinion. Sadly, in some places such discussions are frowned upon as "polluting" the purity of an audio board... to the extent that I have been permanently banned from one such board. Perhaps I was considered a negative distraction from the more compelling issues, such as "which vocal mic costing less than $100 should I buy?"

I'll leave you to guess which one.

[alphajerk]

SM57

art is a bunch of bullshit. commercialism is further bullshit.

if you do what you love solely out of love, it is art. if you do it for money then you are simply a wh0re.

[EveAnna Manley]

Why must art and bucks be mutually exclusive? I have problem with your logic, Alphajerk.

What if you do what you're doing because you really do love what you're doing, and continue to do it out of love (your definition of art) and you get this nifty benefit of getting paid to do it. How come because you earned some bucks now you are labelled a wh0re? Maybe because you love what you are doing that you do it so damn well, and then people find that worthy and so pay you to do it?




Another question: Since I drive these two cars, may I be Alfajerk?

[Stephen Paul]

"Art is a bunch of bullshit."

Now there is a cultured, educated and tolerant statement.

I'll have to remember that.

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by EveAnna Manley
How come because you earned some bucks now you are labelled a wh0re?

i didnt say if you earn money. if you DO IT for money. opposed to if you DO IT for love [and could make money doing it]. and there is nothing wrong with being a wh0re.... it pays the bills. art doesnt.


SP.... fuuck

[dave-G]

i'm an artsy-whøre.

-dave

[EveAnna Manley]

OK, so for you, it is all a question of motivatation to determine which label you get. OK.

Now back to Littledog's question.
"[Is it] difficult (if not impossible) to study or discuss the full aspects of recording music and completely ignore issues of human nature and human behavior."

I would say that, yes, it is difficult to study or discuss the full aspects of recording music and ignore issues of human nature and human behavior when we are humans typing this and those emoticons are enabled...




Maybe an could step in and give us a non-human perpective...

And you see I can't even pose a question of logic to Alphajerk without getting the finger from him.

Human nature did not get ignored there...

Actually if we ignored all human nature behavior in our discussions, we might be left talking about measured behavior on oscilloscopes (like, pure science) and that would get too boring after awhile... or maybe not. Bring on the Geekslutz!

My vote is to allow human nature and human behavior to stay. I like the idea of real humans reading this stuff. I mean, if we wanted to, we could just type to robots all day long...

[Steve Smith]

"Art is just short for Arthur" - keith Richards.

[Rod Gervais]

Originally posted by alphajerk
SP.... fuuck

Actually i consider this to be a perfect example of LD's original statement......... by the way alpha - if art is bullshit - and commercialism is bullshit - then all and everything (by extension) is bullshit - you must be able to relate to that real well.

It's very primal - a perfect example of "you can take the monkey out of the jungle - but you cannot take the jungle out of the monkey".

Hi to LD, EveAnna, Stephen and my other friends at GS.......

Hi to you as well alpha........ or do you prefer just "jerk"?

I'm one of those people who are blessed with having something that i love to do - and being paid very well for it.

I am also a musician who could care less whether my band ever plays (we do but that is icing on the cake - not the cake itself) because it is for the love that we do it.

But the art - with all of this - goes way beyond the musicians - it includes the truly great engineers and ME's - the people who have the wonderful insight to create the equipment - the gear - that make it all possible - all of this is an expression of the Art in music.

LD - i do not believe it is possible to effectively discuss this without taking the "human equation" into account. In fact - it believe it is impossible to do the other.........

This isn't something that can be measured - it is all about people and differing personalities............. otherwise there would be no difference of how one mic's a set of drums - or which preference one has for gear, every song would be the same - clinical and soulless.

So unless "Jerk" can invent something (maybe this is HIS art) that can define all of the parameters and take this to a clinical level - humanity - personality - and art - will have a place.

Happy Hunting to all my friends,

Stephen - nice to see you here.

Rod

[Bob Olhsson]

I think there are really THREE categories

doing music for the love of self

doing music for the love of money

doing music with the goal of inspiring joy in others who are very likely to support you with both love AND money

[heinz]

Some of the greatest classical works of all time were done by musicians whoring up to whatever RichBaron would finance their musical pursuits. These musicians loved their craft, but needed to EAT in order to continue their art. Many modern musicians do studio gigs or day jobs in order to finance their own artistic projects. In my opinion this is not a binary issue.

Asking a much more relevant question, why the continued focus on audio website wars? Who really gives a **** about who was banned from this/that website, moderator power struggles, and negative generalizations about board philosophies? These "human nature and human behaviour" issues aren't necessarily related Recording Discussion, they only seem to decrease S/N ratio.

[aardvark]

Originally posted by littledog
Art is an expression of the uniqueness of the human species...

I submit to you that art is more the definintion of of our
uniqueness.

Art occurs at the serendipitous confluence of craft, emotion
and opportunity. This is area that recordists do on occasion
find themselves in. These occasions may be inspired by the need
to earn a living just as easily as they may occur under the eye
of a pure joy moment of happenstance.

There is art in brilliant circuit design, art in the varnish of a
Stradavarius and art in turning a phrase into song that defines
a moment for eternity.

How can we be blind to the notion that our work is at some level
always affected by the artistic halo of those great minds who
set out the paramaters for us to explore and expand?

The painting of the sistine chapel was a business deal...plain and simple. Yet It is art of the highest order. Nice work for a wh0re.


Aardvark

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by Rod Gervais
by the way alpha - if art is bullshit - and commercialism is bullshit - then all and everything (by extension) is bullshit -

bingo. were born, we consume, we shit, we die. nothing more.



eve anna. the finger was aimed at someone else. my reply to you was above it.... i can understand the confusion.

[EveAnna Manley]

Ooooh. I get it now. Sorry for being dense and defensive, Aphajerk.
Doh!


--Alfajerk

[littledog]

Originally posted by alphajerk
bingo. were born, we consume, we shit, we die. nothing more.

Nihilism is not original with Alphajerk. I'm assuming his prescription drugs have run out these last few days. Or else there is some other reason for which he chooses to pretend to agree with a bankrupt philosophy which i doubt he honestly espouses. (At least on a good day...) Otherwise, why not just commit suicide?

The fortunate ones transcend AJ's "life = shit" tautology, because they leave a lasting legacy behind to their friends, family, community, or species. Although there may be a few humans who fit AJ's definition, like it or not, others (such as Beethoven, Isaac Newton, and Picasso) did far more than eat, shit, and die. Chances are they will be remembered by their contributions as long as the species exists.

Perhaps longer.

[alphajerk]

maybe, maybe not. all those you mention are part of the "modern" world. give it a thousand or more years. the only person i can think of is Jesus and boy has humanity totally ****ed up his message. even the pharohs of egypt are being lost in time as to their contributions. atlantis? the supposed greatest civilization to ever exist.... completely GONE.... or just a fairytale?

humans are the fleas and the earth is the dog. our meaning in the greater universe is worthless. the people you mention [and the one i mentioned] only have had effect on immediate humanity... whose lifespan is not even a millionbillionth of a millisecond. perhaps there are much grander lifeforms in the universe who look at newton and say "bravo! you figured out gravity and basic physics... and all it took was an apple hitting you in the head" [with heavy sarcasm]... newton is preschool compared to a greater mind. einstein beats him hands down and even he will be looked at as "basic" one day.

[alphajerk]

and lets talk about beethoven for a minute. the ONLY thing left from him is the equivilant of a badly encoded MP3 [written notes] of his music. NOBODY here even has a clue as to what his music should REALLY sound like. it supposedly made women CUM! when he played, but no interpretation will ever rival that.

even jesus was subject to oral passings of his "stories" along with heavy political editing over the years.


ART only has value to those who find enjoyment in it. otherwise it is simply passing expression. COMMERCIALISM is just disposable fodder for the masses to fill the vacant holes it their souls.

[Midlandmorgan]

Art is art...commerce is commerce...the two really can't be separated if one depends on the other....

If one is a paid artist, doesn't it stand to reason that if the artist gets XX for his work, then he may be tempted to add something to facilitate getting XX + 5? If so, then the art just became commercialized...

[Rod Gervais]

Originally posted by alphajerk
the only person i can think of is Jesus and boy has humanity totally ****ed up his message.

I love people who believe they are intelligent - and then open their mouth just to prove otherwise.

Let's assume for just a moment that what you say above is true.... and that his message is totally ****ed up......... OK - I am there...............

Now do me a favor - and explain to me how you know this........ you were maybe alive at the time that he gave his message - you listened to it then and memorized it ? This is how you know?

Or is it possible that you are the only human being alive to actually understand it - and thus you know for a fact that humanity toally ****ed it up? You have a source of the original so you know what the truth is?

Of course there is always a 3rd possibility - do you hear voices in your head......... does Jesus speak to you at night and explain how screwed up everyones idea is of his message - and maybe he's choosen you to be the one single human being on the face of the earth to truly understand it?

If your original statement is correct - you would never know it - the only way you can know it is if the statement is untrue. You must know know the message to know the truth - and if you can "know and understand" the message - what makes you think that others cannot?

There is a word for people like you............. tis "Pompus"

Rod

[aardvark]

Originally posted by alphajerk
and lets talk about beethoven for a minute. the ONLY thing left from him is the equivilant of a badly encoded MP3 [written notes] of his music. NOBODY here even has a clue as to what his music should REALLY sound like...

Someone must of hit you hard with a big old stupid stick...there
are some of us who have a pretty good idea thanks to those written notes...which came in very handy for him as his hearing
failed.

Aardvark

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by Rod Gervais
Or is it possible that you are the only human being alive to actually understand it - and thus you know for a fact that humanity toally ****ed it up? You have a source of the original so you know what the truth is?

there is a word for you too... stupid. take the message that HAS made it through time. people have generally ****ed that up in their daily practice. just as islam has ****ed up mohammeds message. in fact, it goes so far as to act in the OPPOSITE manner. it has gone SO FAR that is jesus DID come back as the xtians hope he does, he would have the same issues against them as he did in his time. they would most likely cruficy HIM.

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by aardvark
Someone must of hit you hard with a big old stupid stick...there
are some of us who have a pretty good idea thanks to those written notes...which came in very handy for him as his hearing
failed.

Aardvark

no you dont. you are full of shit. maybe you got beaten with the big ole stupid stick because that is one of the most moronic statements i have EVER seen made.

[aardvark]

Originally posted by alphajerk
no you dont. you are full of shit. maybe you got beaten with the big ole stupid stick because that is one of the most moronic statements i have EVER seen made.

Well considering the source I take that rather well.


Aardvark

[Ruphus]

I think it isn´t too hard to understand what Alpha says. Besides the fact that there is no prove of a person having existed as Jesus, but the fact that at that time it was very fashionable to be a prophet and many declared as such ...

It is clear that the heritage being conveid of a fictive or howsoever real person named Jesus has been totally misused by the ones claimed to be his representatives.

They brought prudery in advantage of better economical exploitation over the people. They always made deals with the feudals, they faked documents to tighten whole landscapes all over the world, they caused countless cases of injustice, wars and the fatal subjectivity that is uppon destroying the globe with an incredible ignorance related to mens intellectual capacities. The catholic church still is the wealthiest organisation on earth and hasn´t stopped gathering yet while still preaching modesty.

Doubt on all this if it makes you feel comfortable with believing, but don´t jump on someone who regards the facts.

[2leod]

I'm pretty much convinced that matters of faith don't translate well on internet forums... you need to be able to look into the eyes and hear the resonance of truth in the voice. Having said that, I do recognize the sense of how badly messed up and hopeless humanity is from AJ's vantage point. Been to that pit, done the time, bought a whole concession stand's worth of t-shirts. I have found in these latter days though, that truth and and purpose dance together on the edges of my periphal vision, and in the pursuit of them I have seen the evidence left behind. Bruce Cockburn contends that we have to "kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight", and I'm just a flailin' away like some hopped up 14 year old the high school dance...

The fact that I can choose to do that is encouraging to me.

[invisibl]

I though Real ART was when the eyes in a painting followed you round the room??

[Rod Gervais]

Originally posted by alphajerk
there is a word for you too... stupid. take the message that HAS made it through time. people have generally ****ed that up in their daily practice. just as islam has ****ed up mohammeds message. in fact, it goes so far as to act in the OPPOSITE manner. it has gone SO FAR that is jesus DID come back as the xtians hope he does, he would have the same issues against them as he did in his time. they would most likely cruficy HIM.

Thank you for making my point..............

Your position now is that the message made it through time - but is somehow perverted by the people. The simple fact that you recognize the perversion of the messages proves that they indeed have made it through these thousands of years basically intact.

Thus - the message endures - and it is only the actions (humanity or lack thereof) of people that remains.

Art endures............... I so much love it when you get it.......... I apologize - you really are more intelligent than i gave you credit for.

Sincerely,

Rod

[Ruphus]

Originally posted by invisibl
I though Real ART was when the eyes in a painting followed you round the room??

Not bad, that one

[alphajerk]

if you are offended by my remarks, its simply ego stepping in the way. im in no way saying that one shouldnt enjoy life and live it up to the fullest but should recognize the meaningless of it all... so enjoy it for what it is. art is only meaningful to those it affects, commericialism is only meaningful to those pockets the masses line.


aardvark... im having a supremely tought time accepting the fact that you have ANY inclination as to what beethoven sounded like. there is SO MUCH nuance that can be implied with each note that can NOT be written. much like the internet conversations are missing the facial expressions of gestures that makes discussions more interpretable, so does music. all beethoven recordings are simply cover songs and INTERPRETATIONS.

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by Rod Gervais
Your position now is that the message made it through time - but is somehow perverted by the people. The simple fact that you recognize the perversion of the messages proves that they indeed have made it through these thousands of years basically intact.

the basic message exists long before and long after jesus. the natural laws will always be known to man.... but its become quite dilluted over the years to the point of nonsense. i dont claim to have the TRUE message. i just am aware that what is given now is no longer the TRUTH.