The worst thing you could do to a kid.

Jalabodu · 29th November 2005, 03:27 AM

rant

This is really grating on my nerves.

You've probably seen guitars, basses, and drums at Wal-Mart by now. Best Buy has like an entire section of "musical instruments". I even saw a $19.99 classical type guitar at Bed Bath & Beyond.

I'm an accomplished guitarist of over 30 years. I've spent a little time in a few of these stores trying to tune these guitars and play them. It can't be done, at least without a basic knowledge of making various adjustments to the neck and bridge (many can't be adjusted).

All of these "instruments" are obviously aimed at beginners. The problem is, any kid who gets one of these pieces of shit is doomed to failure! I was lucky. My parents bought me real guitars to play. I truly believe that if I was given one of these Wal-Mart specials, I wouldn't have a successful career in the music industry.

It's a case of commercialism undermining culture. Wal-Mart represents everything that's wrong with this country. Sure "we've got guitars" but they're totally unplayable. "Just give us your $70 so we smash your dreams and fill up landfills."

/rant

Jose Mrochek · 29th November 2005, 03:47 AM

i understand your rant but I think it´s still better if a parent gives a 20buck guitar to a kid than a different kind of toy. the ¨tuning¨will not frustrate them, it will only make them want a better guitar if they are really into it.

29th November 2005, 04:06 AM

if the kid gets their dreams shattered and gives up immediately after playing a cheap instrument, then it's just as well, because they'll certainly not have the kind of infinite patience that music requires even when you're playing the most beautiful instrument or using the greatest gear.

if the kid is really motivated though, cheap or not, the temporary quality of the instrument they're playing won't deter them from realizing their goal.

and not every parent can afford an expensive instrument. that shouldn't prevent them from helping their kid get started on the instrument they're interested in.

Rodney Gene · 29th November 2005, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jalabodu

rant

This is really grating on my nerves.

You've probably seen guitars, basses, and drums at Wal-Mart by now. Best Buy has like an entire section of "musical instruments". I even saw a $19.99 classical type guitar at Bed Bath & Beyond.

I'm an accomplished guitarist of over 30 years. I've spent a little time in a few of these stores trying to tune these guitars and play them. It can't be done, at least without a basic knowledge of making various adjustments to the neck and bridge (many can't be adjusted).

All of these "instruments" are obviously aimed at beginners. The problem is, any kid who gets one of these pieces of shit is doomed to failure! I was lucky. My parents bought me real guitars to play. I truly believe that if I was given one of these Wal-Mart specials, I wouldn't have a successful career in the music industry.

It's a case of commercialism undermining culture. Wal-Mart represents everything that's wrong with this country. Sure "we've got guitars" but they're totally unplayable. "Just give us your $70 so we smash your dreams and fill up landfills."

/rant

Hey bro...every retail mom and pop music store...and mega supershop banjo mart is chock to the brim with these 'starter' guitars. All of them just as poorly made...
This is as common as bread an butter and has always been the case from as far back as Sears and Montgomery Ward.

Some of the best deals on these Yamaha starter paks are from Costco!!

As for Walmart...there are about 15 of them (yep 15!! Crazy but true) in my area here in Austin and surrounding areas...They employee 1000's of people here in Austin...those people have bought houses and cars here in Austin..they shop here in Austin at Home Depot and they go out to eat at Millers BBQ...they send thier kids to the areas dentists and video shops...they buy grocerys from the HEB and Randalls here in Austin... The buy Insurance from agents here in Austin...
They wear orange and cheer for the university of Texas. Right now alot of them have christmas lights up in thier nieghborhoods...

Undermining American Culture?

Not in Texas...

Walmart is a part of modern American Culture...

And if I remember correctly, they are the world's largest retailer of music CDs.

I don't have one argument about it in the least...You may be right...you may not, It honestly makes no difference to me. My nieghbor works at Walmart...they have a brilliant kid...Straight A student...they sold us pointsetta's from the school christmas program...they drive Fords and Chevy's.

Anyway I look at it I don't feel victimized...

Cheers..

eyesore · 29th November 2005, 04:37 AM

Interesting, because I was just thinking about how sad it is that the bulk of what is sold at music stores is designed to not sound very good. Incompatibilities between human nature and capitalism do not confine this phenomenon only to music either. I guess it's just being taken a step further as music products begin to proliferate in non-music stores as you decribe. Most of the music gear I have owned was sub par. I will say that, contrary to popular opinion, once you cross a certain line, the gear can make an incredible difference. I very well might have given up on playing guitar if I hadn't had the opportunity to play a nice one(classical guitar in this case), and realized hey maybe I can play after all.... If I could do it again, I'd buy a couple nice sounding pieces of gear in place of all the junk I've wasted my money on. Rather than trying to record a Zoom 505 pedal into a computer soundcard, I'd go turn the TV on to a channel I can't pick up and record the snow that way. I might have actually come to understand guitar tone, etc. if I'd been able to play through real amps. You only know what you've been exposed to.

Thanks.

Jose Mrochek · 29th November 2005, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyesore

Interesting, because I was just thinking about how sad it is that the bulk of what is sold at music stores is designed to not sound very good. Incompatibilities between human nature and capitalism do not confine this phenomenon only to music either. I guess it's just being taken a step further as music products begin to proliferate in non-music stores as you decribe. Most of the music gear I have owned was sub par. I will say that, contrary to popular opinion, once you cross a certain line, the gear can make an incredible difference. I very well might have given up on playing guitar if I hadn't had the opportunity to play a nice one(classical guitar in this case), and realized hey maybe I can play after all.... If I could do it again, I'd buy a couple nice sounding pieces of gear in place of all the junk I've wasted my money on. Rather than trying to record a Zoom 505 pedal into a computer soundcard, I'd go turn the TV on to a channel I can't pick up and record the snow that way. I might have actually come to understand guitar tone, etc. if I'd been able to play through real amps. You only know what you've been exposed to.

Thanks.

umm the best soccer players in the world learned to play soccer with no shoes on, and a wrapped up t-shirt on the streets of brazil....

Jalabodu · 29th November 2005, 05:10 AM

Quote:

i understand your rant but I think it´s still better if a parent gives a 20buck guitar to a kid than a different kind of toy. the ¨tuning¨will not frustrate them, it will only make them want a better guitar if they are really into it.

I've spent a bit of time mentoring as well as teaching and I can tell you that learning is based on WINNING! Even if it's a small win. If you can't get a win at doing something, you quit.

Think of the way a kid's eyes light up when you show him how to play a chord AND he's able to do it, and it sounds good. Now compare that with trying to show him how to play a chord and YOU can't do it because the guitar won't tune. He tries it and fails, or it sounds terrible. There's a BIG difference.

I'm not saying that all beginner instruments are a bad idea, or even that there aren't any decent ones. For instance I've played many a decent Mexican made Strat. They're no USA made but they're playable, and $150 or so to boot.

My point is that making music is important.

Profiteers making "musical instruments" that are supposed to be real instruments (not toys) that don't really work are making it harder to make music, not easier just because their product is cheaper.

Quote:

As for Walmart...there are about 15 of them (yep 15!! Crazy but true) in my area here in Austin and surrounding areas...They employee 1000's of people here in Austin...those people have bought houses and cars here in Austin..they shop here in Austin at Home Depot and they go out to eat at Millers BBQ...they send thier kids to the areas dentists and video shops...they buy grocerys from the HEB and Randalls here in Austin... The buy Insurance from agents here in Austin...
They wear orange and cheer for the university of Texas. Right now alot of them have christmas lights up in thier nieghborhoods...

If Wal-Mart had never been there, those thousands of people would still have jobs. They just would have found them elsewhere.

They still would have bought houses and cars in Austin.. and shopped in Austin at Home Depot and go out to eat at Millers BBQ...and send thier kids to the areas dentists and video shops...and buy grocerys from the HEB and Randalls in Austin... and buy Insurance from agents in Austin...
and wear orange and cheer for the university of Texas. and have christmas lights up in thier nieghborhoods

Humans are incredibly adaptive. It's just that many have adapted to excess, mediocrity, and laziness.

In my ideal world we'd celebrate leaders that get us to strive for excellence. We'd celebrate artisans that could show us how to master a task.

Not to say that there aren't some out there. It's just, in my book Wal-Mart isn't one of them. And neither are the producers of these "instruments".

Jalabodu · 29th November 2005, 05:13 AM

Quote:

umm the best soccer players in the world learned to play soccer with no shoes on, and a wrapped up t-shirt on the streets of brazil....

That's a different scenario. You can still kick a wrapped up t-shirt with your bare feet no problem.

It's not as if a kid could make his own makeshift guitar.

pan60 · 29th November 2005, 05:24 AM

i pulled two peace of crap stella guitars out of a dumpster one with a busted body one missing frets.
between the two i got a guitar with very poor action and horrible intonation.
if you want it you will get it.

long live jazz!

AcousTronic · 29th November 2005, 05:57 AM

I agree with Jala, They are not doing any favors by making such crap. America is so concerned with price... I am from the school of "you get what you pay for", and people need to realize that you can't get a decent instrument for the price of a kazoo!

I'm amazed that I stuck with it... My first guitar was not terrible, but my folks bought me a tuning fork instead of a tuner, and I couldn't figure out what the heck to do with that... I was only 8. Luckily I found someone to show me how to tune after about 6 months of it collecting dust. I remember wishing I had gotten a keyboard for that reason.

De chromium cob · 29th November 2005, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodney Gene

As for Walmart...there are about 15 of them (yep 15!! Crazy but true) in my area here in Austin and surrounding areas...They employee 1000's of people here in Austin...those people have bought houses and cars here in Austin..they shop here in Austin at Home Depot and they go out to eat at Millers BBQ...they send thier kids to the areas dentists and video shops...they buy grocerys from the HEB and Randalls here in Austin... The buy Insurance from agents here in Austin...
They wear orange and cheer for the university of Texas. Right now alot of them have christmas lights up in thier nieghborhoods...

Undermining American Culture?

Not in Texas...

Walmart is a part of modern American Culture...

And if I remember correctly, they are the world's largest retailer of music CDs.

I don't have one argument about it in the least...You may be right...you may not, It honestly makes no difference to me. My nieghbor works at Walmart...they have a brilliant kid...Straight A student...they sold us pointsetta's from the school christmas program...they drive Fords and Chevy's.

Anyway I look at it I don't feel victimized...

Cheers..

If ignorance is bliss, you must be happier than a pig in shit.......

Try educating yourself.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html

http://walmartwatch.com/

http://www.walmartmovie.com/

Kestral · 29th November 2005, 06:28 AM

When I was a kid, my parents are total materialists in the sense that they believed that anything that doesn't have financial value has no value at all.

Therefore, music was considered "useless" in their minds.

So I had to steal change from the parental change jar to take keyboard lessons (not even piano). The only time I got to play was when I was doing my lesson. Kind of made it difficult to "practice" so there was no keyboard to practice with. I finally did get them to buy me a keyboard and it was one of those shitty Yamaha PSR series keyboards. So I played on that for a few years and even wrote songs on it.

It wasn't until quite a few years that I got my first "real" keyboard (a Roland U-20).

So to someone like me, even a shitty keyboard was better than none.

Anyways, the worst thing you could do to a kid is to let him sleep over at this guy's house:

Though these dudes are pretty high up on the creepy scale too:

Rodney Gene · 29th November 2005, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by De chromium cob

If ignorance is bliss, you must be happier than a pig in shit.......

Try educating yourself.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html

http://walmartwatch.com/

http://www.walmartmovie.com/

Ignorance is Ignorance...and it has many faces.

Reality is Reality...and it also has many faces.

Bliss...is a state of mind. I doubt you have met many folks in this state.

I encourage you to educate your own self... beyond the mundane predictable propaganda that feeds on your fear, shame and anger...

It is endless and can be had all day everyday in every place...
There is no shortage of 'proof' about the evils in the world...

I also encourage you not to attempt to sum up any situation or person with one tiny perspective...you will always be wrong.
It is impossible to know the whole story unless you know the whole story.

I have my own beliefs...I have no need or desire to defend them so I won't bother and I won't continue this. There is plenty of moaning, wanking and negative world distruction conversation in the off topic section...all day everyday....

octatonic · 29th November 2005, 04:31 PM

If I am not mistaken Frank Zappa had a really shite guitar when he was a kid, and a crap set of drums.
Look at what he accomplished.

Also- Beatles were a skiffle band.

Overcoming adversity is healthy- but I do see your point.
I would rather have my students play good quality guitars than some of the rubbish I see come through my door.

JR

Ruphus · 29th November 2005, 05:34 PM

I think Jalabodu is right.
My own experience was that I digged guitar from very early on and was really excited when one was brought to me the first time at age of 12. However, that one came with rusted strings, and noone having any idea how to tune, or lesser even give further instructions. I tried getting something out of the thing until ears and fingers hurt. No pleasure at all, had to give up on it.

Took years until I came near a usable instrument and started out. ( In a very bad / autodidactical way, besides. A good teacher instead would have been worth a lot.)

The 150-300$ guitars of today are 10 times better axes than those unspeakable, same priced trash pieces of the past, and if one searched a bit and went through the batches he could find some pretty item at chance.

Most of the people should be able to spend such amount for their kid´s instruments. Sure it´s a risk, for many of the kids won´t continue after a first approach, even with acceptable instruments, but one´s children should be worth the trial.

Ruphus

De chromium cob · 29th November 2005, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodney Gene

Ignorance is Ignorance...and it has many faces.

Reality is Reality...and it also has many faces.

Bliss...is a state of mind. I doubt you have met many folks in this state.

I encourage you to educate your own self... beyond the mundane predictable propaganda that feeds on your fear, shame and anger...

It is endless and can be had all day everyday in every place...
There is no shortage of 'proof' about the evils in the world...

I also encourage you not to attempt to sum up any situation or person with one tiny perspective...you will always be wrong.
It is impossible to know the whole story unless you know the whole story.

I have my own beliefs...I have no need or desire to defend them so I won't bother and I won't continue this. There is plenty of moaning, wanking and negative world distruction conversation in the off topic section...all day everyday....

I'm suggesting your 'beliefs' may change once you start to read a little about the subject and go a bit deeper than the simplistic "Walmart's good because their prices are low" mantra. Just because it's not what you want to hear doesn't make it "predictable propaganda"....

rvwainscott · 2nd December 2005, 08:53 AM

Parents are just too lazy to educate themselves on the "toy" that they are buying for their children. I recently made the same mistake when I purchased a sewing maching for my daughter without doing any research first. Yeah, there are a million sewing machines for $150 but they are not very good and my daughter was having a hard time learning because the machine was just not capable of doing what she needed to do plus it always broke or tangled the threads and bunched up the cloth.

I learned from people that actually sew that a good machine can cost $1500 and up and I was able to find one (once I had knowledge) used for $400. It made all the difference and now she can avoid walmart (had to get that one in there) and make her own stuff. She is doing her prom dress right now.

Education begins one person at a time.

Robert V. Wainscott
Full Clip Audio

Fletcher · 4th December 2005, 04:28 PM

My 12 yr. old is learning drums... she has a REMO practice pad kit I got for $50- on eBay for her for X-mas last year. She's come a long way in just slightly under a year... but she's still not ready to sit behind a real kit [I run into the "artist relations" guys from Zildjian all the time... so she has very nice cymbals].

When she was trying to learn piano she got to play the 5' baby grand my dad parked at my house [which is just about to move to the studio due to the wife refurnishing... but I digress]... she gave up on the piano, but from time to time does sit down at the little toy keyboard in her room. It has about 9000 sounds a 4 octave keyboard and an internal speaker [total cost $65 USD]. She can't play for shit, but that unit is good enough for her purposes.

If she sticks with the drums for a couple of years then, and only then will I even remotely consider getting her a kit... until then if she can't do with the $50- practice pads then she can't do at all.

joeq · 4th December 2005, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletcher

My 12 yr. old is learning drums... she has a REMO practice pad kit I got for $50- on eBay for her for X-mas last year. She's come a long way in just slightly under a year... but she's still not ready to sit behind a real kit

If she sticks with the drums for a couple of years then, and only then will I even remotely consider getting her a kit... until then if she can't do with the $50- practice pads then she can't do at all.

I teach drums and many of my students are young children. Many parents take the approach that Fletcher takes- start off on the pads and graduate to a drum set after the student demonstrates the self-discipline and interest over a period of time. For some students it seems to be the best way.

Children are fickle creatures, and they are all different, and the conditions for indugence/encouragement/discipline/reward can only be set by their parents. I wouldn't have it any other way. I don't have any kids myself, but I know enough people who do to understand that the balancing act goes way deeper than my involvment in their Music Education.

I also understand that many children are attracted to the drums for non-musical reasons, such as the opportunity to be very loud and very obnoxious.

Nevertheless, as a drummer and a teacher, I am saddened by the 'special' place that drums seem to occupy in the lesson/instrument debate. What other instrument even gives this option?

The difference between practice pads and even a crappy beginner guitar, is that the guitar makes a guitar sound. The pads give rebound but they do not make a drum sound. People rarely get their child a Fender Rhodes and hold back the amp until they prove themselves. Nobody gets a child a mouthpiece and then later the horn if they stick with it.

(sigh) Drums- the Rodney Dangerfield of musical instruments.

Jose Mrochek · 4th December 2005, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeq

I also understand that many children are attracted to the drums for non-musical reasons, such as the opportunity to be very loud and very obnoxious.

I know many grown up adults who are still loud and obnoxious : )

brucegel · 5th December 2005, 05:48 PM

As a drummer for forty years now...gulp...I agree with joe, at least get a snare for the kid fletcher.

Jalabodu · 5th December 2005, 07:19 PM

Quote:

The difference between practice pads and even a crappy beginner guitar, is that the guitar makes a guitar sound.

If it really can make even a crappy guitar sound, then great, as long as you can tune it. The P.O.S.'s at some of these retailers can be likened to a piano, on which all of the keys only play four notes.

Thanks all for your opinions.

norman_nomad · 6th December 2005, 11:47 PM

I think some people are missing Jala's point... those Walmart guitars are not functional instruments...

There's a big difference between playing a crappy guitar and a mess of balsa wood and fishing line.

Even a practice pad is satisfying. You can practice your paradiddles!

Kids/humans do need a reward system to encourage progress (in fact our brain releases dopamine any time a goal is met with satisfaction, and without this chemical release, we are less likely to be resilient in our efforts).

My heart sinks when I see parents take the cheap route when their kids express musical interests... $20 for a guitar? common...

And think about how many copies of Tony Hawk @ $44.95 were sold in the last 5 years...

jim demetri · 19th December 2005, 01:06 AM

i agree that the instrument should be at least playable . but i can remeber the thime i started off playing bass as a kid . i went into a music shop and bought a fender precision copy . not because it sounded good or it played well but i like the look of it . ok it was an absolute dog to play but i dident know that at the time i though that was it . i had it for a few years playing in my bedroom on an old crapy guitar amp someone gave me . trying to play tripplets or anything clever was really really hard as the guitar just dident want to responed . but some how i managed it . one day i came into some money and i thought its time to buy a decent guitar . i bought a music man damm it was like sooooo easy to play and because i had to try hard on my last instrument it made me both very fast and very confident on the more responsive music man . everything was like a big wieght has been taken off my shoulders . now im not saying this is a good thing for most people , but i do think that anyone who wants to learn anything has to go though a period of having it not so easy and those that stick it out are normaly the ones that become good at what they do .

joeq · 19th December 2005, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim demetri

... i had it for a few years playing in my bedroom on an old crapy guitar amp someone gave me .......

... but i do think that anyone who wants to learn anything has to go though a period of having it not so easy and those that stick it out are normaly the ones that become good at what they do .

ah but you HAD an amp. Your bass, POS that it was, made a bass sound of some kind. How long a 'period of having it not so easy' with just your bass and NO AMP do you think you could have managed before you lost interest?

I still maintain that drums are put into a special cat

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29th November 2005, 03:27 AM	#1
Jalabodu Gear addict Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 361	The worst thing you could do to a kid. rant This is really grating on my nerves. You've probably seen guitars, basses, and drums at Wal-Mart by now. Best Buy has like an entire section of "musical instruments". I even saw a $19.99 classical type guitar at Bed Bath & Beyond. I'm an accomplished guitarist of over 30 years. I've spent a little time in a few of these stores trying to tune these guitars and play them. It can't be done, at least without a basic knowledge of making various adjustments to the neck and bridge (many can't be adjusted). All of these "instruments" are obviously aimed at beginners. The problem is, any kid who gets one of these pieces of shit is doomed to failure! I was lucky. My parents bought me real guitars to play. I truly believe that if I was given one of these Wal-Mart specials, I wouldn't have a successful career in the music industry. It's a case of commercialism undermining culture. Wal-Mart represents everything that's wrong with this country. Sure "we've got guitars" but they're totally unplayable. "Just give us your $70 so we smash your dreams and fill up landfills." /rant __________________ You know you're a Gearslut when: When your wife is yelling at you for the new gear you just bought and all you can think about is what mic and pre would be the best for her anoying tone. Markk Pronounced "Hal a ba DU"

29th November 2005, 03:47 AM	#2
Jose Mrochek Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 3,852	i understand your rant but I think it´s still better if a parent gives a 20buck guitar to a kid than a different kind of toy. the ¨tuning¨will not frustrate them, it will only make them want a better guitar if they are really into it. __________________ www.thejoti.com www.myspace.com/thejoti http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR116su2Uuo ¨But, then again, I'm British and think you Yanks with your fancy pre for each track are a bunch of weirdos¨ Mark

29th November 2005, 05:24 AM	#9
pan60 500 series nutjob Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: 500 series Guru SKANK! ; ) Posts: 6,453	i pulled two peace of crap stella guitars out of a dumpster one with a busted body one missing frets. between the two i got a guitar with very poor action and horrible intonation. if you want it you will get it. long live jazz! __________________ www.pan60.com A CHARTER MEMBER OF THE LA, MAFIA where is LA? IF YOU ARE NOT INTO THE 500 FORMAT, THEN YOU'RE JUST JEALOUS! quote: your secret identity is safe with me superman! Peter Montessi it is easy to sound as though one was endowed with great intelligence, whilst speaking amongst a crowd of total morons

29th November 2005, 04:31 PM	#14
octatonic Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: London Posts: 4,800	If I am not mistaken Frank Zappa had a really shite guitar when he was a kid, and a crap set of drums. Look at what he accomplished. Also- Beatles were a skiffle band. Overcoming adversity is healthy- but I do see your point. I would rather have my students play good quality guitars than some of the rubbish I see come through my door. JR __________________ Regards, Jim Richmond "I don't go to mythical places with strange men." Douglas Adams

29th November 2005, 04:06 AM	#3
jordan19 Guest Posts: n/a	if the kid gets their dreams shattered and gives up immediately after playing a cheap instrument, then it's just as well, because they'll certainly not have the kind of infinite patience that music requires even when you're playing the most beautiful instrument or using the greatest gear. if the kid is really motivated though, cheap or not, the temporary quality of the instrument they're playing won't deter them from realizing their goal. and not every parent can afford an expensive instrument. that shouldn't prevent them from helping their kid get started on the instrument they're interested in.

29th November 2005, 04:37 AM	#5
eyesore Gear addict Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 302	Interesting, because I was just thinking about how sad it is that the bulk of what is sold at music stores is designed to not sound very good. Incompatibilities between human nature and capitalism do not confine this phenomenon only to music either. I guess it's just being taken a step further as music products begin to proliferate in non-music stores as you decribe. Most of the music gear I have owned was sub par. I will say that, contrary to popular opinion, once you cross a certain line, the gear can make an incredible difference. I very well might have given up on playing guitar if I hadn't had the opportunity to play a nice one(classical guitar in this case), and realized hey maybe I can play after all.... If I could do it again, I'd buy a couple nice sounding pieces of gear in place of all the junk I've wasted my money on. Rather than trying to record a Zoom 505 pedal into a computer soundcard, I'd go turn the TV on to a channel I can't pick up and record the snow that way. I might have actually come to understand guitar tone, etc. if I'd been able to play through real amps. You only know what you've been exposed to. Thanks.

29th November 2005, 05:57 AM	#10
AcousTronic Gear nut Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 110	I agree with Jala, They are not doing any favors by making such crap. America is so concerned with price... I am from the school of "you get what you pay for", and people need to realize that you can't get a decent instrument for the price of a kazoo! I'm amazed that I stuck with it... My first guitar was not terrible, but my folks bought me a tuning fork instead of a tuner, and I couldn't figure out what the heck to do with that... I was only 8. Luckily I found someone to show me how to tune after about 6 months of it collecting dust. I remember wishing I had gotten a keyboard for that reason.

29th November 2005, 06:28 AM	#12
Kestral Lives for gear Join Date: May 2004 Location: Toronto Ontario Canada Posts: 1,516	When I was a kid, my parents are total materialists in the sense that they believed that anything that doesn't have financial value has no value at all. Therefore, music was considered "useless" in their minds. So I had to steal change from the parental change jar to take keyboard lessons (not even piano). The only time I got to play was when I was doing my lesson. Kind of made it difficult to "practice" so there was no keyboard to practice with. I finally did get them to buy me a keyboard and it was one of those shitty Yamaha PSR series keyboards. So I played on that for a few years and even wrote songs on it. It wasn't until quite a few years that I got my first "real" keyboard (a Roland U-20). So to someone like me, even a shitty keyboard was better than none. Anyways, the worst thing you could do to a kid is to let him sleep over at this guy's house: Though these dudes are pretty high up on the creepy scale too:

29th November 2005, 05:34 PM	#15
Ruphus Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Berlin / Germany Posts: 5,108	I think Jalabodu is right. My own experience was that I digged guitar from very early on and was really excited when one was brought to me the first time at age of 12. However, that one came with rusted strings, and noone having any idea how to tune, or lesser even give further instructions. I tried getting something out of the thing until ears and fingers hurt. No pleasure at all, had to give up on it. Took years until I came near a usable instrument and started out. ( In a very bad / autodidactical way, besides. A good teacher instead would have been worth a lot.) The 150-300$ guitars of today are 10 times better axes than those unspeakable, same priced trash pieces of the past, and if one searched a bit and went through the batches he could find some pretty item at chance. Most of the people should be able to spend such amount for their kid´s instruments. Sure it´s a risk, for many of the kids won´t continue after a first approach, even with acceptable instruments, but one´s children should be worth the trial. Ruphus __________________ "Am I the only one that tires of this "everything is subjective" watered-down-pop-culture-pseudo-philosophy bullshit?" Bravin Neff Wolgang Burr, former office leader of the German Chancellor before committee of inquiry: "You would not believe what unusual happens daily." "Patience, young Skywalker - let the object of your desires come to you." JTR "All thinking men are atheists." Ernest Hemingway

2nd December 2005, 08:53 AM	#17
rvwainscott Gear nut Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Phoenix Posts: 120	Parents are just lazy Parents are just too lazy to educate themselves on the "toy" that they are buying for their children. I recently made the same mistake when I purchased a sewing maching for my daughter without doing any research first. Yeah, there are a million sewing machines for $150 but they are not very good and my daughter was having a hard time learning because the machine was just not capable of doing what she needed to do plus it always broke or tangled the threads and bunched up the cloth. I learned from people that actually sew that a good machine can cost $1500 and up and I was able to find one (once I had knowledge) used for $400. It made all the difference and now she can avoid walmart (had to get that one in there) and make her own stuff. She is doing her prom dress right now. Education begins one person at a time. Robert V. Wainscott Full Clip Audio

4th December 2005, 04:28 PM	#18
Fletcher member no 666 Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Foxboro, MA USA Posts: 5,806	My 12 yr. old is learning drums... she has a REMO practice pad kit I got for $50- on eBay for her for X-mas last year. She's come a long way in just slightly under a year... but she's still not ready to sit behind a real kit [I run into the "artist relations" guys from Zildjian all the time... so she has very nice cymbals]. When she was trying to learn piano she got to play the 5' baby grand my dad parked at my house [which is just about to move to the studio due to the wife refurnishing... but I digress]... she gave up on the piano, but from time to time does sit down at the little toy keyboard in her room. It has about 9000 sounds a 4 octave keyboard and an internal speaker [total cost $65 USD]. She can't play for shit, but that unit is good enough for her purposes. If she sticks with the drums for a couple of years then, and only then will I even remotely consider getting her a kit... until then if she can't do with the $50- practice pads then she can't do at all. __________________ Fletcher If you have a question please email me at Fletcher@mercenary.com instead of using the PM system... I very rarely check that system and it could take a while to get a response. I can also be found at either address below: R/E/P the Recording Engineer and Producer forums Mercenary Audio mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33 We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid Roscoe Ambel once said: Pro-Tools is to audio what fluorescent is to light

5th December 2005, 05:48 PM	#21
brucegel Gear addict Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 362	right you are joe As a drummer for forty years now...gulp...I agree with joe, at least get a snare for the kid fletcher.

6th December 2005, 11:47 PM	#23
norman_nomad Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 2,002	I think some people are missing Jala's point... those Walmart guitars are not functional instruments... There's a big difference between playing a crappy guitar and a mess of balsa wood and fishing line. Even a practice pad is satisfying. You can practice your paradiddles! Kids/humans do need a reward system to encourage progress (in fact our brain releases dopamine any time a goal is met with satisfaction, and without this chemical release, we are less likely to be resilient in our efforts). My heart sinks when I see parents take the cheap route when their kids express musical interests... $20 for a guitar? common... And think about how many copies of Tony Hawk @ $44.95 were sold in the last 5 years...

19th December 2005, 01:06 AM	#24
jim demetri Gear Head Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 58	i agree that the instrument should be at least playable . but i can remeber the thime i started off playing bass as a kid . i went into a music shop and bought a fender precision copy . not because it sounded good or it played well but i like the look of it . ok it was an absolute dog to play but i dident know that at the time i though that was it . i had it for a few years playing in my bedroom on an old crapy guitar amp someone gave me . trying to play tripplets or anything clever was really really hard as the guitar just dident want to responed . but some how i managed it . one day i came into some money and i thought its time to buy a decent guitar . i bought a music man damm it was like sooooo easy to play and because i had to try hard on my last instrument it made me both very fast and very confident on the more responsive music man . everything was like a big wieght has been taken off my shoulders . now im not saying this is a good thing for most people , but i do think that anyone who wants to learn anything has to go though a period of having it not so easy and those that stick it out are normaly the ones that become good at what they do .