How am I supposed to respond to this...

Riad · 11th November 2005, 08:58 PM

This is the actual text of an e-mail I recieved:

Quote:

Um I was Just wondering if you would have to have the music n stuff
ready to come to your studio. It is like 6 of us. We are
ready to start singing.

2leod · 11th November 2005, 09:16 PM

"Nah, just make sure you have your cash ready and we'll be good to go!"

When did having music ready become an optional thing? I blame the Idol shows...

7 Hz · 11th November 2005, 09:18 PM

If you want the money:

Dear (client name),

Thanks for your interest in (your studio). We can indeed help you get some music together to sing over. Do you have songs you have written yourself, or do you want to do cover versions? We can make tracks for you no problem, please let us know what you require.

Yours sincerely,

An Engineer

--------------------------------------------------
if you don't care:

Dear (client name),

The music and stuff? What do you think this is, a f**king jukebox?

Yours sincerely,

An Engineer

7 Hz · 11th November 2005, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2leod

I blame the Idol shows...

You know what (I was gonna have a moan about this anyway)...

EVERY SECOND ENQUIREY now at the studio is for some singer wanabe wanting to come in "for a couple of hours" to record "some songs". I am serious. And we do it!... well, I'm gonna knock the 2 hour sessions on the head, too much hastle for bugger all money.

Next pet hate after that is bands wanting to do "five songs" in three hours... for god's sake people, does NO ONE know how to produce their music anymore? I never remember it being this bad 10 years ago...

60 Psycho Hum · 11th November 2005, 10:21 PM

You got that right. I hear that all the time. But it's never a problem because "we're really tight, man." Oddly enough, they rarely are. But, hey, I'm practicing to get tracks down and mixed obsenely quickly.

rvwainscott · 11th November 2005, 11:45 PM

I'm always worried that this stuff just happens to me and I'm glad to see otherwise. American Idol has changed the nature of some of the calls i get. They tend to sound something like this:

Me: Full Clip Audio, this is Robert Speaking
Girl: What do you do?
Me: We're a full service recording studio and we do some production. What do YOU do?
Girl: I want to sing.
Me: Oh, I want to dance but everything I do looks like I'm chopping imaginary wood.
Girl: Um, do I sing for you?
Me: That might be a bit strange. What exactly do you want to do with your singing? Do you wish to make a CD and sell it? Are you looking to make a demo to get work in clubs. Is this an audition piece for someone else's project?
Girl: All my friends say I sound like (insert flavor of the week) and I should be a singer.

Anyway, I never really know what to say when I get those calls. These people have no concept whatsoever as to what they want to do. I usually refer these calls to friends of mine with home studios that don't mind taking the extra time to work with someone like that.

Robert V. Wainscott
Full Clip Audio

Riad · 12th November 2005, 12:24 AM

You know what, I'm going to respond to this e-mail, let's see how this goes...

Riad · 12th November 2005, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Greedy

If your getting paid..why worry? Seriously...if your in demand enough not to work with bozzos, then your lucky, talented and blessed. If not...then it's money. It still beats flippin' burgers at McDonald's; and anytime you are on a session you have a chance to practice and/or learn something that will be valuable in the future...in this case, client relations. So...take their money, make them happy and do a great job...whatever it is.

Eric,

I agree with you. But I am fortunate enough not to have to worry about taking anything that walks into the studio.

I've also taken sessions like this before, and the aggrevation far outweighed the knowledged gained.

Rob

simonv · 12th November 2005, 06:40 AM

I would never take a contract like that.

These clients basically want to be taken by the hand, like in TV shows, and become superstars.
They have:
1) no clue of what making a soundtrack means. They don't realize that composing a song and creating a soundtrack is much harder than singing over it.
2) no experience in studio world...

Basically, taking a gig like that not only means that you'll have to explain everything to the client, but most of all you'll have to make them understand that for their cash$ they won't sound like their idols. And since sounding like their idols IS exactly what they want, they're in for a total deception. And you'll have to be more of a psychologist during the session than an engineer.

Funny how people have wrong perceptions of studios. They don't understand that a recording studio is a facility where you record actual sound sources.

I say, respond to them in multiple emails in order to make them realize how ridiculous they are.

You: I am not too sure that I understand. You have a band and want to record your songs?
Them: No we just want to sing over music.
You: So, do you have your soundtracks?
Them: No, this is exactly why we are calling.
You: Ok, so the songs are composed, you have ruff demos, and want to come in the studio to record them again?
Them: No we dont have anything, don't you have any music for us to sing over?
You: Do you think that songs, arrangements, and sound tracks fall out of the sky?

That's what I'd do

AcousTronic · 12th November 2005, 01:47 PM

Too funny!! Personally, I doubt I would respond at all. Let them get their musical/studio education somewhere else.

Jose Mrochek · 15th November 2005, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rvwainscott

Anyway, I never really know what to say when I get those calls. These people have no concept whatsoever as to what they want to do. I usually refer these calls to friends of mine with home studios that don't mind taking the extra time to work with someone like that.

Robert V. Wainscott
Full Clip Audio

Easy, refer them to a starting producer. Me personaly have been making a few bucks recently doing exactly that (writing/arranging) songs for singers who don´t have a clue but have a passable voice. Rarely a singer knows what they want even more rare is for them to know how a record is done. I´m sure most people out there think that a record is done in exactly 4 minutes or the time it takes a song to start and finish. Mixing ?? what the hell is that ? . etc.. I think it´s very understandable that starting ¨artists¨don´t have a clue about how this works. Don´t want to sound like an ass and I know this is the moan zone but guys, I think you should be happy you are getting ANY calls from anyone.. and if you are to important and feel offended by having these sort of calls have your secretary answer these emails or calls.. sorry.

15th November 2005, 04:33 AM

oh wow. that's priceless.

i love the last line. "we are ready to start singing." *wipes a tear from eyes* man that's great.

mixdude1 · 15th November 2005, 05:43 AM

Here's an email I just got,
Name withheld,

1. Comment = WHAT UP PEEP'S HOW'S LIFE ? I HOPE IT'S ALL GREAT, ME I'M TRYING TO MAINTAIN, I'M INTO THIS HIP HOP THING TRYING TO GO MAINSTREAM, AND I AM SEARCHING FOR A CO TO HELP ME WITH THE PRODUCTION OF MY ALBUM, I'M TRYING TO DO A LITTLE SOMETHING UNDERGROUND FOR THE METROPLEX THEN BACK DOOR WITH A HOT ALBUM, THE NAME SPEAK'S FOR ITSELF, AND I COME EQUIPPED WITH A SENSE OF STYLE SOUND AND EXPRESSION, I AM IN NEED OF A PROFFESIONAL TEAM THAT'S WILLING TO WORK WITH ME... I TAKE THIS MUSIC SERIOUSLY, I'M BILLBOARD MATERIAL AND MULTIPLATINUM STATUS AND I BELEIVE THAT VERY STRONGLY, I'M OPEN MINDED TO IDEAS , I JUST CAN'T SIT BACK AND WATCH MYSELF LET THIS TALENT THAT I POSSES LIKE NO ONE BEFORE ME OR AFTER ME GO TO WAIST.... IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO WORK WITH ME ON A SERIOUS TIP THEN RESPOND BACK, AT LEAST HEAR MY MUSIC OUT, BELEIVE ME YOU WAN'T TO WORK WITH ME, UNTIL THEN IT'S A GRIND I'M LIKE MONEY WITH NO COUNTRY AND THAT QUOTE SPEAK'S FOR ITSELF, I AM COMEING TO POP THE CHARTS' AND SHOCK THE WORLD WITH SUPERSTARDUM, I BEEN FLIRTING WITH IT FOR AWHILE

Kubilay · 15th November 2005, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixdude1

I JUST CAN'T SIT BACK AND WATCH MYSELF LET THIS TALENT THAT I POSSES LIKE NO ONE BEFORE ME OR AFTER ME GO TO WAIST....

With all that talent going to his waist, that must be one seriously obese dude...

...somebody should tell him that's not talent, that's junk-food!!!!!

rainsinvelvet · 15th November 2005, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixdude1

Here's an email I just got,
Name withheld,

1. Comment = WHAT UP PEEP'S HOW'S LIFE ? I HOPE IT'S ALL GREAT, ME I'M TRYING TO MAINTAIN, I'M INTO THIS HIP HOP THING TRYING TO GO MAINSTREAM, AND I AM SEARCHING FOR A CO TO HELP ME WITH THE PRODUCTION OF MY ALBUM, I'M TRYING TO DO A LITTLE SOMETHING UNDERGROUND FOR THE METROPLEX THEN BACK DOOR WITH A HOT ALBUM, THE NAME SPEAK'S FOR ITSELF, AND I COME EQUIPPED WITH A SENSE OF STYLE SOUND AND EXPRESSION, I AM IN NEED OF A PROFFESIONAL TEAM THAT'S WILLING TO WORK WITH ME... I TAKE THIS MUSIC SERIOUSLY, I'M BILLBOARD MATERIAL AND MULTIPLATINUM STATUS AND I BELEIVE THAT VERY STRONGLY, I'M OPEN MINDED TO IDEAS , I JUST CAN'T SIT BACK AND WATCH MYSELF LET THIS TALENT THAT I POSSES LIKE NO ONE BEFORE ME OR AFTER ME GO TO WAIST.... IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO WORK WITH ME ON A SERIOUS TIP THEN RESPOND BACK, AT LEAST HEAR MY MUSIC OUT, BELEIVE ME YOU WAN'T TO WORK WITH ME, UNTIL THEN IT'S A GRIND I'M LIKE MONEY WITH NO COUNTRY AND THAT QUOTE SPEAK'S FOR ITSELF, I AM COMEING TO POP THE CHARTS' AND SHOCK THE WORLD WITH SUPERSTARDUM, I BEEN FLIRTING WITH IT FOR AWHILE

Man, thats just awsome on so many different levels..!

ERic

ExistanceMusic · 15th November 2005, 12:54 PM

Quote:

IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO WORK WITH ME ON A SERIOUS TIP THEN RESPOND BACK

It's like an R&B Nigerian money scam! He must be sending thousands of these out!

Reggie Love · 15th November 2005, 01:30 PM

I don't think this is a new phenomenon, although it had certainly been exacerbated by Mr Simon "Longtrouser" Cowell and Pop Idol. A while ago when I was still playing seriously I managed to get hired and fired as a guitarist for a band with a newly signed deal with Island records within around 40 hours following an argument and kiss and make up between the band and their former axe man. Any way that's a side issue...

Being at a loose end I placed an ad for other musicians stressing original material and professional attitiude and all the other nonsense that one put in these ads and I got two separate phone calls which went something like this:-

Hey I saw your ad!
Great what do you do?
Well I want to get into music.
Okay, what do you play, or do you sing?
Well I kinda want to write music.
Eeeeerrrrrralright, why not? Got any material I can have a listen to?
Not exactly.
Any music or lyrics I could take a look at?
Well I was kinda hoping you could teach me how to write songs...
Gulp! Do you write poetry or prose?
Not really!

Now there are some people out there who make a living offering creative writing classes including songwriting. There are some things you can teach people, like using active rather passive imagery and phrases lyrically. There are even fine examples of pretty much non-musical lyricists like Bernie Taupin for example. But when all is said and done these people had an idea about how nice it would be to be a "songwriter", rather than what is involved in getting published. What is more I firmly believe the one thing you can't teach about songwriting is the fine art of fly fishing the audience!!! Something you only really know that you've got right when people start bellowing the lyrics out when a song comes on.

Anyway, I just made nice and suggested they'd need to work on some ideas and that maybe a creative writing class would at least give them a taste of the kind of things they'd need to know.

AcousTronic · 15th November 2005, 05:03 PM

"I'M LIKE MONEY WITH NO COUNTRY AND THAT QUOTE SPEAK'S FOR ITSELF" ...Ah, maybe I'm slow or no longer in touch street lingo that seems to change daily, but does this make any sense?

The entire paragraph was simply mesmerizing, but that line took the cake for me.

Riad · 15th November 2005, 05:28 PM

Wow, that was a train wreck.

e.

mitgong · 15th November 2005, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExistanceMusic

It's like an R&B Nigerian money scam!

Oh that's good.

Durv · 23rd November 2005, 07:37 PM

ANY update??
i'd love to see how/IF they responded!
i get emails like that all the time...i TRY to deal with it as best i can!
keep us posted!
Durv

Riad · 23rd November 2005, 09:57 PM

Hello,

What kind of music are you looking to record? Are you a group of 6
singers? Do you need music, or musicians?

Robert

Quote:

Hi
I am looking to record like hiphop music n stuff like that. We are a
group of 6 singers looking for a place and time to start our
singing career and become famous celebrities. We got some of the music
like the words, but not like the beats n stuff. We
also have a group name but it doesn't sound all that great and poppin.
Do you think you can help us like find a good good
name like destiny's child. We have a producer already but not a manager
n choreographer n stuff like that. And no we don't
a musician.

You will need to find someone to create the beats first, I don't
provide that service. Once you have the beats, then I can work with
your producer to record your songs.

Thanks,
Rob

Quote:

Ok but is that the producers job to create the beats?

Well in the hip-hop world it usually does mean the producer creates
the beats. In a more traditional sense the producer would have say in
how the entire record sounds, depends on what type of producer you are
looking for.

Quote:

What exactly do you mean about different types of producers?.Well my
producer is my uncle and he got like everything
so i'll ask him

And that's pretty much how that conversation ended.

60 Psycho Hum · 23rd November 2005, 11:54 PM

I love Uncle Producer.

Durv · 24th November 2005, 02:10 AM

Quote:

I love Uncle Producer.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!
that is so ****ing funny!!
hahahah
Please keep us posted!
Durv

Finalmix56 · 24th November 2005, 10:40 AM

Yeah, I have to say that there is a higher percentage of people calling that have absolutely no idea what the recording process entails. We are thinking about offering free clinics once a month for people in the area to educate them about the process, what to expect, what not to expect ect... I know it's quite easy to pass the buck on certain callers, and i know all too well that some people make it VERY difficult to work with them, but I usually think there are some benefits with these sessions. I try to keep in mind that everybody starts somewhere, and that if they find someone that can provide a positive experience with them they might keep coming back, usually better. And that they might refer someone else with more experience/talent. But then, I usually give those sessions to my interns!
Oh, and try raising rates, it usually weeds out 'undesireable' clientle, you can always give a break to groups that you really want to work with.

just my 2c

cheers!

Riad · 20th January 2006, 06:42 PM

Here's the latest:

Quote:

Hi!
My name is Martyna and I'm from Poland.
Can you tell me how can I be a singer beacouse I wanna sing.
Did you have any tests or something??
please help me
thank you very much

Now what kind of test should I have her take?

rickrock305 · 20th January 2006, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riad

Here's the latest:

Now what kind of test should I have her take?

oooo, just imagine the possibilities.

This could be good!

De chromium cob · 20th January 2006, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 60 Psycho Hum

I love Uncle Producer.

Isn't that from the movie "Anchorman- The Legend of Ron Burgundy"?

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11th November 2005, 09:16 PM	#2
2leod Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: A big Canadian island in the Pacific, but my citizenship is otherworldly... Posts: 938	"Nah, just make sure you have your cash ready and we'll be good to go!" When did having music ready become an optional thing? I blame the Idol shows... __________________ Doug

11th November 2005, 09:18 PM	#3
7 Hz Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 900	If you want the money: Dear (client name), Thanks for your interest in (your studio). We can indeed help you get some music together to sing over. Do you have songs you have written yourself, or do you want to do cover versions? We can make tracks for you no problem, please let us know what you require. Yours sincerely, An Engineer -------------------------------------------------- if you don't care: Dear (client name), The music and stuff? What do you think this is, a f**king jukebox? Yours sincerely, An Engineer __________________ "You're going to AMPLIFY this crap?!?!?"

11th November 2005, 11:45 PM	#6
rvwainscott Gear nut Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Phoenix Posts: 120	How wonderful I'm always worried that this stuff just happens to me and I'm glad to see otherwise. American Idol has changed the nature of some of the calls i get. They tend to sound something like this: Me: Full Clip Audio, this is Robert Speaking Girl: What do you do? Me: We're a full service recording studio and we do some production. What do YOU do? Girl: I want to sing. Me: Oh, I want to dance but everything I do looks like I'm chopping imaginary wood. Girl: Um, do I sing for you? Me: That might be a bit strange. What exactly do you want to do with your singing? Do you wish to make a CD and sell it? Are you looking to make a demo to get work in clubs. Is this an audition piece for someone else's project? Girl: All my friends say I sound like (insert flavor of the week) and I should be a singer. Anyway, I never really know what to say when I get those calls. These people have no concept whatsoever as to what they want to do. I usually refer these calls to friends of mine with home studios that don't mind taking the extra time to work with someone like that. Robert V. Wainscott Full Clip Audio

12th November 2005, 12:24 AM	#7
Riad Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Monroe, NY Posts: 1,082	You know what, I'm going to respond to this e-mail, let's see how this goes... __________________ www.carvelstudios.com "I like my women the way I like my scotch, 20 years old and mix up in coke."

11th November 2005, 10:21 PM	#5
60 Psycho Hum Gear interested Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Medford OR Posts: 17	You got that right. I hear that all the time. But it's never a problem because "we're really tight, man." Oddly enough, they rarely are. But, hey, I'm practicing to get tracks down and mixed obsenely quickly.

12th November 2005, 06:40 AM	#9
simonv Gear addict Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Montreal Posts: 477	I would never take a contract like that. These clients basically want to be taken by the hand, like in TV shows, and become superstars. They have: 1) no clue of what making a soundtrack means. They don't realize that composing a song and creating a soundtrack is much harder than singing over it. 2) no experience in studio world... Basically, taking a gig like that not only means that you'll have to explain everything to the client, but most of all you'll have to make them understand that for their cash$ they won't sound like their idols. And since sounding like their idols IS exactly what they want, they're in for a total deception. And you'll have to be more of a psychologist during the session than an engineer. Funny how people have wrong perceptions of studios. They don't understand that a recording studio is a facility where you record actual sound sources. I say, respond to them in multiple emails in order to make them realize how ridiculous they are. You: I am not too sure that I understand. You have a band and want to record your songs? Them: No we just want to sing over music. You: So, do you have your soundtracks? Them: No, this is exactly why we are calling. You: Ok, so the songs are composed, you have ruff demos, and want to come in the studio to record them again? Them: No we dont have anything, don't you have any music for us to sing over? You: Do you think that songs, arrangements, and sound tracks fall out of the sky? That's what I'd do __________________ -- www.allamps.com www.myspace.com/simonvezina

12th November 2005, 01:47 PM	#10
AcousTronic Gear nut Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 110	Too funny!! Personally, I doubt I would respond at all. Let them get their musical/studio education somewhere else.

15th November 2005, 04:33 AM	#12
jordan19 Guest Posts: n/a	oh wow. that's priceless. i love the last line. "we are ready to start singing." wipes a tear from eyes man that's great.

15th November 2005, 05:43 AM	#13
mixdude1 Gear Head Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Dallas Posts: 60	Here's an email I just got, Name withheld, 1. Comment = WHAT UP PEEP'S HOW'S LIFE ? I HOPE IT'S ALL GREAT, ME I'M TRYING TO MAINTAIN, I'M INTO THIS HIP HOP THING TRYING TO GO MAINSTREAM, AND I AM SEARCHING FOR A CO TO HELP ME WITH THE PRODUCTION OF MY ALBUM, I'M TRYING TO DO A LITTLE SOMETHING UNDERGROUND FOR THE METROPLEX THEN BACK DOOR WITH A HOT ALBUM, THE NAME SPEAK'S FOR ITSELF, AND I COME EQUIPPED WITH A SENSE OF STYLE SOUND AND EXPRESSION, I AM IN NEED OF A PROFFESIONAL TEAM THAT'S WILLING TO WORK WITH ME... I TAKE THIS MUSIC SERIOUSLY, I'M BILLBOARD MATERIAL AND MULTIPLATINUM STATUS AND I BELEIVE THAT VERY STRONGLY, I'M OPEN MINDED TO IDEAS , I JUST CAN'T SIT BACK AND WATCH MYSELF LET THIS TALENT THAT I POSSES LIKE NO ONE BEFORE ME OR AFTER ME GO TO WAIST.... IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO WORK WITH ME ON A SERIOUS TIP THEN RESPOND BACK, AT LEAST HEAR MY MUSIC OUT, BELEIVE ME YOU WAN'T TO WORK WITH ME, UNTIL THEN IT'S A GRIND I'M LIKE MONEY WITH NO COUNTRY AND THAT QUOTE SPEAK'S FOR ITSELF, I AM COMEING TO POP THE CHARTS' AND SHOCK THE WORLD WITH SUPERSTARDUM, I BEEN FLIRTING WITH IT FOR AWHILE __________________ Steve www.eastdallasdigital.com

15th November 2005, 01:30 PM	#17
Reggie Love Gear addict Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Knebworth Posts: 323	I don't think this is a new phenomenon, although it had certainly been exacerbated by Mr Simon "Longtrouser" Cowell and Pop Idol. A while ago when I was still playing seriously I managed to get hired and fired as a guitarist for a band with a newly signed deal with Island records within around 40 hours following an argument and kiss and make up between the band and their former axe man. Any way that's a side issue... Being at a loose end I placed an ad for other musicians stressing original material and professional attitiude and all the other nonsense that one put in these ads and I got two separate phone calls which went something like this:- Hey I saw your ad! Great what do you do? Well I want to get into music. Okay, what do you play, or do you sing? Well I kinda want to write music. Eeeeerrrrrralright, why not? Got any material I can have a listen to? Not exactly. Any music or lyrics I could take a look at? Well I was kinda hoping you could teach me how to write songs... Gulp! Do you write poetry or prose? Not really! Now there are some people out there who make a living offering creative writing classes including songwriting. There are some things you can teach people, like using active rather passive imagery and phrases lyrically. There are even fine examples of pretty much non-musical lyricists like Bernie Taupin for example. But when all is said and done these people had an idea about how nice it would be to be a "songwriter", rather than what is involved in getting published. What is more I firmly believe the one thing you can't teach about songwriting is the fine art of fly fishing the audience!!! Something you only really know that you've got right when people start bellowing the lyrics out when a song comes on. Anyway, I just made nice and suggested they'd need to work on some ideas and that maybe a creative writing class would at least give them a taste of the kind of things they'd need to know. __________________ Patience, n. A minor form of despair, disguised as a virtue.

15th November 2005, 05:03 PM	#18
AcousTronic Gear nut Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 110	"I'M LIKE MONEY WITH NO COUNTRY AND THAT QUOTE SPEAK'S FOR ITSELF" ...Ah, maybe I'm slow or no longer in touch street lingo that seems to change daily, but does this make any sense? The entire paragraph was simply mesmerizing, but that line took the cake for me.

15th November 2005, 05:28 PM	#19
Riad Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Monroe, NY Posts: 1,082	Wow, that was a train wreck. e. __________________ www.carvelstudios.com "I like my women the way I like my scotch, 20 years old and mix up in coke."

23rd November 2005, 07:37 PM	#21
Durv Gear addict Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore MD Posts: 403	ANY update?? i'd love to see how/IF they responded! i get emails like that all the time...i TRY to deal with it as best i can! keep us posted! Durv

23rd November 2005, 11:54 PM	#23
60 Psycho Hum Gear interested Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Medford OR Posts: 17	I love Uncle Producer.

24th November 2005, 10:40 AM	#25
Finalmix56 Gear interested Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: San Jose Posts: 17	Yeah, I have to say that there is a higher percentage of people calling that have absolutely no idea what the recording process entails. We are thinking about offering free clinics once a month for people in the area to educate them about the process, what to expect, what not to expect ect... I know it's quite easy to pass the buck on certain callers, and i know all too well that some people make it VERY difficult to work with them, but I usually think there are some benefits with these sessions. I try to keep in mind that everybody starts somewhere, and that if they find someone that can provide a positive experience with them they might keep coming back, usually better. And that they might refer someone else with more experience/talent. But then, I usually give those sessions to my interns! Oh, and try raising rates, it usually weeds out 'undesireable' clientle, you can always give a break to groups that you really want to work with. just my 2c cheers! __________________ Professional button pusher.