People who hate pop music (becuase of the name Pop)

[complex]

Hi, now i been on most major music forum and i have noticed that there is a huge hate for music such as Brittney spear, lady gaga, etc and other music which is in the charts. Now what i dont get is the fact it is there is becuase it is:

1. easy to listen to

2. catchy

3. good melodies

4. good structure

5. good engineering

6. really well produced

now surley that is all the things a good song should be. are these people (there on GS as well) i bit Dim? why do they not want to make good songs? now i know that not all songs are in the charts are good and i am aware that alot of it is PR and Image, but surley even the occasional really musical stuff breaks through for what it truley is and shines on the charts aswell, as well as your prefered genre of choice. So i don't get why people have so much beef with it, are they jelouse? or is it becuase it is ascociated with such things as young kids, teen age girls and such things that might not be exactly manly listening to (you dont hear many wrestler listening to Brittney spear or lady gaga) which i have noticed with friends they will not listen to popy stuff(purely on principle with out giving it a chance), they label it crap before they even give the music a chance. I think that a good producer and engineer will listen to all type of music and learn to love it for what it is from lady gaga to ten masked men, from dr dre to hybrid and edvard grieg to pendulum, so why has this stero type come over so many people. is it a domino effect that one (Supposedly cool) person says it crap so all his little followers say it rubbish with out giving it a chance? what your thought on why some many people frown apon pop music ?

[Jordan-O]

I'm with ya brother

[AfterViewer]

To answer that question you must look to the East........

[Chris Lago]

I totally agree! I listen to everything, Rock, pop, electro, rnb, Rap and Hip-Hop, Classical, world music and the list goes on.

The problem with pop:

Too focused on image, hype, promotion (mass media).
Too many obvious repetitions in songs
Lyrics can sometimes be too light, not meaningful, repetitive themes (dancing, partying, relationships etc)
Too predictable (follows similar song structures all the time)
Too many radio spins (kills the song & artist)
Associated with talentless singers (doesn't mean they're all talentless) too much editing in productions in order to give a perfect ideal that does not exist in real live. This is a modern thing.
Too mainstream, duh!
Interviews and scandals can sometimes take over to the experience of the music.

So yeah, just observations, not definite truths.

[bossman]

I think many of the people who claim to hate pop music secretly listen to Lady Gaga and Britney Spears. I really think that some people claim to hate pop because they think it's cool to do so or that it makes them somehow more intellectual. Now that's not to say that there aren't people who just hate it and won't listen to it because they don't like the style. I respect that. But to hate pop just because it's called pop is a little strange to me. To each his own, I guess.

Originally Posted by complex

Hi, now i been on most major music forum and i have noticed that there is a huge hate for music such as Brittney spear, lady gaga, etc and other music which is in the charts. Now what i dont get is the fact it is there is becuase it is:

1. easy to listen to

2. catchy

3. good melodies

4. good structure

5. good engineering

6. really well produced

now surley that is all the things a good song should be. are these people (there on GS as well) i bit Dim? why do they not want to make good songs? now i know that not all songs are in the charts are good and i am aware that alot of it is PR and Image, but surley even the occasional really musical stuff breaks through for what it truley is and shines on the charts aswell, as well as your prefered genre of choice. So i don't get why people have so much beef with it, are they jelouse? or is it becuase it is ascociated with such things as young kids, teen age girls and such things that might not be exactly manly listening to (you dont hear many wrestler listening to Brittney spear or lady gaga) which i have noticed with friends they will not listen to popy stuff(purely on principle with out giving it a chance), they label it crap before they even give the music a chance. I think that a good producer and engineer will listen to all type of music and learn to love it for what it is from lady gaga to ten masked men, from dr dre to hybrid and edvard grieg to pendulum, so why has this stero type come over so many people. is it a domino effect that one (Supposedly cool) person says it crap so all his little followers say it rubbish with out giving it a chance? what your thought on why some many people frown apon pop music ?

[complex]

Originally Posted by isotopesnyc

I think many of the people who claim to hate pop music secretly listen to Lady Gaga and Britney Spears. I really think that some people claim to hate pop because they think it's cool to do so or that it makes them somehow more intellectual. Now that's not to say that there aren't people who just hate it and won't listen to it because they don't like the style. I respect that. But to hate pop just because it's called pop is a little strange to me. To each his own, I guess.

yeah ok, i said that a bit wrong maybe if i phrase it as people dont agree with the image that come with pop, such as you can have bad singer go through a auto tune and make a hit record and then get lots of PR to make the song huge, now i think majority of people (a guess here) dont agree with that hence why hey dont listen to it, but then agian there missing the point of music by paying too much attention to using there eyes by watching the PR poster and ad campaigns and the super expensive video rather than actually listening to the music.

[complex]

Originally Posted by isotopesnyc

Now that's not to say that there aren't people who just hate it and won't listen to it because they don't like the style

that the beutiful term of pop music it has no fixed style its anything and evreything hence why i like it so much, beg to ask the question is it a technically a genre, because all it is a mixture of other genres!

[bossman]

Originally Posted by complex

yeah ok, i said that a bit wrong maybe if i phrase it as people dont agree with the image that come with pop, such as you can have bad singer go through a auto tune and make a hit record and then get lots of PR to make the song huge, now i think majority of people (a guess here) dont agree with that hence why hey dont listen to it, but then agian there missing the point of music by paying too much attention to using there eyes by watching the PR poster and ad campaigns and the super expensive video rather than actually listening to the music.

that the beutiful term of pop music it has no fixed style its anything and evreything hence why i like it so much, beg to ask the question is it a technically a genre, because all it is a mixture of other genres!

of course there are people who hate it for those reasons. but i guess there has always been a hatred towards the popular music of the times. in the 70's people hated disco, in the 80's people hated new wave, in the 90's people hated grunge, and... you get my point. there are always people who dislike new ideas because they go against the grain.

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by isotopesnyc

of course there are people who hate it for those reasons. but i guess there has always been a hatred towards the popular music of the times. in the 70's people hated disco, in the 80's people hated new wave, in the 90's people hated grunge, and... you get my point. there are always people who dislike new ideas because they go against the grain.

But also because it is in the mainstream.

[Joe Porto]

I love pop music, although what I listen to was popular 25 to 50 years ago.

[riteup3]

Trying to write pop music and failing miserably has been a very humbling experience for me!
I mean I could write a wicked jazz theme and some even more wicked harmonies underneath .........yet I can't come up with something as "easy" (right!) as Tik Tok.
Yes I once was one of those music snobs with his nose up in the air

[Batchainpuller78]

I'm not saying pop is easy, making a succesful pop song isn't (however if you have the means to shove it down peoples throat 24/7 I'm pretty much sure people can be conditioned to like anything)
I'll take a whole day listening to that Jazz stuff instead of that Tiktok stuff I just can't feel it, but heck I can't dance to 1,2,3,4 either, apparently whole clubs full of people don't have a problem with that, but I do, give me some Jazz or Afro funk and then my foot will start tapping to the beat and I feel urges to move all other parts of my body as well. But not with bonk bonk bonk bonk, it's just to simple to entice me.

[chrisdee]

I don't hate poop music.

[badmark]

Rihanna's Umbrella = great pop

Cheryl Cole's Parachute = festering poop

[OldSkool]

I'm with Batchainpuller and JoePorto here - and if you really want me to say why you're going to get an earfiul. lt's just that to me, and I've been obsessed with music for almost 40 years and played multiple instruments and sung for over 30, the $hit you're talking about sounds like only 11-year old girls could possibly like it, and that it was designed, and I use that term very literally, from the ground up, to appeal to 11-year old girls.

It is stupid, robotic, involves no actual musicians or compositional/arrangement skills, and lacks syncopation so is rhythmically dull as dishwater, which for dance music is pathetic. Dance music used to be so engaging that you could listen to it for hours on end, whether or not you were dancing, but that has been stomped on and killed by "producers" who have no feel for rhythm and use machines to create their beats - beats a little kid could learn to program in minutes.

You suggest some of us might not listen to this infantile boring dreck because we think it's cool. Music is my f*cking RELIGION, man, and what I think is that if you listen to everything under the sun - classical, bubblegum, and world beats - it's because you do not have a discriminating ear and an emotional connection to music. Maybe it's all just a background roar to you, the soundtrack to your morning drive or your morning dump.

If this attitude makes me a "dinosaur", an "old lady" as some dumbasses tend to characterize it, all I can say is I am one proud and happy dinosaur.

[bossman]

Originally Posted by OldSkool

You suggest some of us might not listen to this infantile boring dreck because we think it's cool. Music is my f*cking RELIGION, man, and what I think is that if you listen to everything under the sun - classical, bubblegum, and world beats - it's because you do not have a discriminating ear and an emotional connection to music. Maybe it's all just a background roar to you, the soundtrack to your morning drive or your morning dump.

If this attitude make me a "dinosaur", an "old lady" as some dumbasses tend to characterize it, all I can say is I am one proud and happy dinosaur.

I actually do listen to everything under the sun. I grew up on The Beatles, Classical music, Jazz, Blues, Soul, etc. I can listen to anything, no matter what genre, how it was made, who played or sang what... whatever. As long as the song is good, to me, it's GOOD.

And music is my religion, too, by the way.

[OldSkool]

Originally Posted by isotopesnyc

I actually do listen to everything under the sun. I grew up on The Beatles, Classical music, Jazz, Blues, Soul, etc. I can listen to anything, no matter what genre, how it was made, who played or sang what... whatever. As long as the song is good, to me, it's GOOD.

And music is my religion, too, by the way.

I notice you didn't mention Britney or Gaga.

[bossman]

Originally Posted by riteup3

Trying to write pop music and failing miserably has been a very humbling experience for me!
I mean I could write a wicked jazz theme and some even more wicked harmonies underneath .........yet I can't come up with something as "easy" (right!) as Tik Tok.
Yes I once was one of those music snobs with his nose up in the air

This is a great point and one of the reasons I was converted to appreciate pop. I'm mainly a songwriter and when I started to move into a pop direction it was kind of a head-scratcher. The simplicity of the music is sometimes a paradox to a songwriter who has been writing complex music for years. Good point!

[bossman]

Originally Posted by OldSkool

I notice you didn't mention Britney or Gaga.

Well, if I grew around this time I probably would!

But more than Britney and GaGa, I respect the songwriters and producers who make their tracks. Max Martin and RedOne, specifically.

EDIT: by the way, if you look closely at my avatar, you'll see who my main inspiration is to this day. :-)))

[OldSkool]

One last thought: you notice my post was vehement, forceful, passionate. That ought to tell you everything you know about me and what music means to me. And if it isn't about passion, it can all go down the toilet as far as I'm concerned. I guess a lot (millions) of people aren't passionate about music but still need some noise in their lives to fill up the echoing emptiness in their souls - why boom stereos sell so well - so let 'em have it. But for Christ's sake don't you dare tell me there's anything else worthwhile about it besides a way to get money in the bank.

isotopesnyc, you have good roots obviously, but I'll never know what producers you're referring to. Life is brief and there's only so much time you can spend actually listening. Mortality is as good a reason as any to be choosy.

[bossman]

Originally Posted by OldSkool

One last thought: you notice my post was vehement, forceful, passionate. That ought to tell you everything you know about me and what music means to me. And if it isn't about passion, it can all go down the toilet as far as I'm concerned. I guess a lot (millions) of people aren't passionate about music but still need some noise in their lives to fill up the echoing emptiness in their souls - why boom stereos sell so well - so let 'em have it. But for Christ's sake don't you dare tell me there's anything else worthwhile about it besides a way to get money in the bank.

isotopesnyc, you have good roots obviously, but I'll never know what producers you're referring to. Life is brief and there's only so much time you can spend actually listening. Mortality is as good a reason as any to be choosy.

To each his or her own. I never try to force my musical tastes and beliefs on anyone. Music is personal. thumbsup

[randyundercaste]

Originally Posted by OldSkool

I'm with Batchainpuller and JoePorto here - and if you really want me to say why you're going to get an earfiul. lt's just that to me, and I've been obsessed with music for almost 40 years and played multiple instruments and sung for over 30, the $hit you're talking about sounds like only 11-year old girls could possibly like it, and that it was designed, and I use that term very literally, from the ground up, to appeal to 11-year old girls.

It is stupid, robotic, involves no actual musicians or compositional/arrangement skills, and lacks syncopation so is rhythmically dull as dishwater, which for dance music is pathetic. Dance music used to be so engaging that you could listen to it for hours on end, whether or not you were dancing, but that has been stomped on and killed by "producers" who have no feel for rhythm and use machines to create their beats - beats a little kid could learn to program in minutes.

You suggest some of us might not listen to this infantile boring dreck because we think it's cool. Music is my f*cking RELIGION, man, and what I think is that if you listen to everything under the sun - classical, bubblegum, and world beats - it's because you do not have a discriminating ear and an emotional connection to music. Maybe it's all just a background roar to you, the soundtrack to your morning drive or your morning dump.

If this attitude makes me a "dinosaur", an "old lady" as some dumbasses tend to characterize it, all I can say is I am one proud and happy dinosaur.

I understand your point about listening to everything under the sun but thats not what hes talking about. i know those people your talking about...ya know the "shallow listeners". What hes saying is you as a musician should be able to at least try to understand why peaple like that kind of music and no im not talking about the obvious tired lame ass "its for teen girls" reason. you have to really listen to it and figure out why they made what they made. A little kid could not make those beats sorry to say. In fact i would be surprised if you could make a good pop song (not trying to start shit)

I personally cant staaand country music and just because they have live musicians with a non 4 on the floor groove dosent mean i should like it. That wont stop me from appreciating what they do and pick out melodies or other things i like and learn from it as a musician. If someone is listening to country in their car and im in the back seat i wont think "oh god not this stupid booring shit". Ill actually listen to it knowing its not my thing but will try to enjoy it any way i can. Open minded comes to mind. Why should pop music be any different?

As a musician/engineer im glad to be open to other kinds of music and it actually helps mine as well.

Did i mention tic toc is a song i just hate with a passion. HATE!!!!! Other pop songs are usually not as bad.

[OldSkool]

Howe much you wanna bet I could teach my 7-year old to use piano roll or a pad device like trigger finger to do the beats part of any modern dance-pop tunes? I am amazed you find that part implausible...check out this little guy: YouTube - Jacob Armen drum solo, seven years old!!. Maybe you don't have any kids.

That said, I am not trying to start shit either; what I say is based on a lifetime of observation, and no exaggeration, complete dumbfoundment (is there such a word?). Believe me, I`ve tried to understand why people would listen to stuff like Spears or Gaga (or Terry Jacks or America) and I just come up empty. Maybe they have dicky hearts and can`t take any stimulation over watching-flies-crawl-up-drapes level. I dunno. BTW most new country does stink. It`s the homogenization process again, just a different genre. Nice and safe and dull, more pop-rock than country really. Good soundtrack for robbing convenience stores I guess.

[bossman]

Originally Posted by randyundercaste

I understand your point about listening to everything under the sun but thats not what hes talking about. i know those people your talking about...ya know the "shallow listeners". What hes saying is you as a musician should be able to at least try to understand why peaple like that kind of music and no im not talking about the obvious tired lame ass "its for teen girls" reason. you have to really listen to it and figure out why they made what they made. A little kid could not make those beats sorry to say. In fact i would be surprised if you could make a good pop song (not trying to start shit)

I personally cant staaand country music and just because they have live musicians with a non 4 on the floor groove dosent mean i should like it. That wont stop me from appreciating what they do and pick out melodies or other things i like and learn from it as a musician. If someone is listening to country in their car and im in the back seat i wont think "oh god not this stupid booring shit". Ill actually listen to it knowing its not my thing but will try to enjoy it any way i can. Open minded comes to mind. Why should pop music be any different?

As a musician/engineer im glad to be open to other kinds of music and it actually helps mine as well.

Did i mention tic toc is a song i just hate with a passion. HATE!!!!! Other pop songs are usually not as bad.

Yep, that is exactly what I mean.

[bossman]

Originally Posted by OldSkool

Howe much you wanna bet I could teach my 7-year old to use piano roll or a pad device like trigger finger to do the beats part of any modern dance-pop tunes? I am amazed you find that part implausible...check out this little guy: YouTube - Jacob Armen drum solo, seven years old!!. Maybe you don't have any kids.

That's not really the point. There are 7 years olds who can play any Rachmaninov concerto with relative ease. But how many 7 year olds (let alone 17, 27 or 37 year olds) can write a song that millions of people enjoy listening to? Not many. Maybe that doesn't mean anything to you, but to us songwriters who want to have our songs heard by as many people as we can, it means a lot. As a songwriter, that's what I'm fascinated by, the formula behind a hit song. Production techniques are a whole other animal and they interest me as well. But I feel there are more great producers than there are great songwriters.

[Batchainpuller78]

I'm sorry but some of the real 'hot' stuff today, the things that's on TV 24/7 on main station radio's all of them, under commercials, on the internet, have countless ads running for them, it's really more product placement and a form of entertainment but it's not really music anymore, music is a part of the item being shoved down your throat but it's not the product music like it was for hundred of years, and frankly the last years it really has become something very weird and plastic sounding, popular and mainstream music always existed but in general one could say the bar has been lowered quite a bit and at the same time raised to different standards.
Although very ingenious forms of production take place often showcasing the latest possible somehow it's not as rich in musical form (I'm being mild here) and it kinda appeals to very very basic instincts of mankind, and doesn't challenge anything in consuming it. And it is designed for just that, consuming it.
And the last 10 or so years the variety on mainstream channels has shrunk immensely they used to offer everything even older music on the channels (but I guess since they can't sell cd's or their older catalogues anymore because that music is so easily available there's no point in pushing it to the people anymore)
Something did change over the last decade and there have been some really strange trends going on, but hey it's okay I shut it out, I hardly watch any TV, don't put on the radio, discover the music to talking about music with people and check out stuff what I might like.

Hmm also noticed something strange today my whole city (little place in Belgium) has new commercial boards in the streets, around bus stops and on the market places, and they are all by clearchannel.

[Chris Lago]

I try to listen to the songs before anyone puts any hype to it, and when I say that a song is going to hit it big, I'm usually not far off!

Songs I heard before the hype:

David Guetta feat. Akon- Sexy Bitch
Holy crap, I was in my car, heading to the gym and when they played it on the radio, I thought wow this is an incredible song, it's going to be huge! Lo and Behold, it did.

Lady Gaga- Just Dance (I had heard the song and the CD a long long time before it became huge) I knew with the synth preset at the beginning that it would be a big seller, especially since it would possibly sell as a ringtone. First time I heard Just Dance was at the Miss World pageants, when Lady Gaga performed it on tv. The singing was not the best, but I could tell by the arrangements that the song was about to become huge.

JT- SexyBack... Nothing to say about this one, right song with the right artist at the right time

Deadmau5 ft Kaskade- Move for Me. This is one of those club songs with the catchiest of synths and the catchiest vocal tone, that was bound to be a winner.

50 Cent, In The Club. The Beat is off the hooks.

Hinder- Lips of an Angel. Possibly some of the catchiest Rock songwriting in a long time. Very strong pre chorus. Pretty sure that Chad Kroeger and Brian Howes wrote this song.

Seether- Fine Again. I really don't know how well this song did in the charts, but I had heard of this band a long time before they got signed, and I knew they'd get signed and release a hit album.

There are plenty more, but I find that I have a good ear when it comes to knowing what will sell or not (no, it doesn't mean it's artistically over the charts). Maybe I should be an A&R

[OldSkool]

Originally Posted by isotopesnyc

That's not really the point. There are 7 years olds who can play any Rachmaninov concerto with relative ease. But how many 7 year olds (let alone 17, 27 or 37 year olds) can write a song that millions of people enjoy listening to? Not many. Maybe that doesn't mean anything to you, but to us songwriters who want to have our songs heard by as many people as we can, it means a lot. As a songwriter, that's what I'm fascinated by, the formula behind a hit song. Production techniques are a whole other animal and they interest me as well. But I feel there are more great producers than there are great songwriters.

I wasn't addressing songwriting skills, I was addressing beatmaking, which I thought was what you were questioning.

The formula for making a hit song I think is really fairly straightforward:

1) make it sound like all the other mung out there - use Autotune and vocoder until it makes the singer sound like an alien zombie. All instrumental sound must come from either synths (as cold and cliched sounding as possible, heavy layers of saw waves) or samplers. Ideally, samples of synths and samplers. Best would be samples of samples of synths and samplers.

2) marketing, marketing, marketing. For variety - more marketing.

I think songwriting skill of the sort you seem to be referring to is not all that important if you really want to be heard by millions.

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by OldSkool

I wasn't addressing songwriting skills, I was addressing beatmaking, which I thought was what you were questioning.

The formula for making a hit song I think is really fairly straightforward:

1) make it sound like all the other mung out there - use Autotune and vocoder until it makes the singer sound like an alien zombie. All instrumental sound must come from either synths (as cold and cliched sounding as possible, heavy layers of saw waves) or samplers. Ideally, samples of synths and samplers. Best would be samples of samples of synths and samplers.

2) marketing, marketing, marketing. For variety - more marketing.

I think songwriting skill of the sort you seem to be referring to is not all that important if you really want to be heard by millions.

Make a hit pop song, then we'll talk. It's not that easy. Your name says it all... Why would an Old School guy like the new-school music out there? They don't even market the music at you anyway. I know that if you go through the process of writing a pop song, producing, arranging, mixing, mastering etc etc. You'll see that it's not a walk in the park, because it's easy to create dead spots. If you have any dead spots in a pop song, you're cooked.

[Silver Sonya]

Chris, your profile photo projects your aesthetic. It is unsurprising to me that you feel the way you do. You like mainstream stuff. This much we know.

Everyone else: don't take the bait with threads like this. It's pointless.

It's like being a film lover arguing with someone who says "'Transformers 2' was a great movie! I mean... do you realize how much money it made? I mean, that's a GREAT MOVIE! If it wasn't, it wouldn't have sold so many tickets!"

And what's your answer to that? "Well, it's crap."

And yes, it is crap. But that's not a very good argument, is it?

Why can't you come up with a better argument? Because it's all subjective.

There's no scientific measure for the merit of art. And there's a certain beauty to that.

Why does Rothko's work tower over a thousand other similar artists? Well, it just does. That's why. And if you can't see why, nobody can help you.

People who love mainstream stuff are always suspicious that the only reason anyone doesn't like it is 'cause they're jealous or they're snobs or whatever. And, really, what can you say to that?

Pointless discussion. Everybody, move on. Don't waste your energy.

You can't argue someone into having better taste.

- c