Performance Rights Org issues - any suggestions?

[John N]

OK, here's the deal, my wife and I perform regionally as an acoustic act doing almost entirely original material. Like a lot of singer songwriters we have day jobs and are getting to the point where we would like to put more emphasis on our music but the reality is that to gig at all we are dependent on cafes and coffeehouses and smaller listening rooms to make any money with music at all and almost all of our CD sales are at gigs.

So a gig just got cancelled because the owner of this little cafe in a semi-rural area outside of Boston had to suspend (if not permanently cancel) her Friday night music series because she was threatened by a lawsuit by a PRO (not sure which one yet). She is basically being told that she must pay hefty royalty fees on the assumption that covers will be played there. I guess it doesn't matter that this place is small, the musicians just get the hat passed and she can probably ill-afford the fees.

I promised this woman that I would let her know if I come up with any helpful information on how to deal with this so I putting it out there to the GS community.

I have my take on this and frankly I think it sucks for the little guy: the musicians, songwriters and the audience. These venues are going to fold or stop hosting live music making it all the harder to get gigs and sell a few effin CDs. I completely believe in IP and a writers fair share in monies made - I am, after all, a songwriter. But I'm a songwriter who is still trying to build an audience and get heard. This seems like one more example of corporate greed making it harder to get heard.

There's gonna be a lot of us on the other side of the moat and eventually we're gonna get our pitchforks and torches and fight back.

Am I missing something here?

Thanks
JN

[Old Goat]

Was it a real PRO, or just a shakedown? Do other acts do covers?

That really bites, man.

[John N]

from what I understand BMI, ASCAP and SESAC all hit her at the same time.
Someone on our groups email list who used to be in the Biz back in the day said it is not uncommon for these guys/gals to tip each other off, so when one PRO finds you they all do. They're like bill collectors - very aggressive because they get paid on a commission. Don't know if that's true or not but its what someone said.

JN

[BIGT-1]

A good number of venues seem to deal with this by having as their policy, in writing, that you are not allowed to play any covers.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by BIGT-1

A good number of venues seem to deal with this by having as their policy, in writing, that you are not allowed to play any covers.

You think that would stop a clever PRO? They could just sue you for infringing on some slightly similar song in their catalog.

No, the only solution is to perform without opening your mouths or touching your instruments.

[John N]

Joel, while I have enjoyed your wit and humor on many threads I could really use some constructive suggestions here as I fear this is going to be a growing trend. With revenue down in the music biz they are starting to come down hard on those they used to ignore, turning over every turnip looking for gold.
As it is, there are less and less venues for live music.

These kind of tactics do nothing for the little guy - or, I imagine, the mid-sized guys. Like I said originally: I can hear the sound of doors closing.

jn

[toneguru]

This is not a new trend.

Even back when revenue was sky high they shut down a club I was performing at every week. It was cool for us cause we just played at the venue across the street and made more dosh for two years straight.

Still it sucks for the venue owner and the community.

Alas, I know of no solution.

[chrisso]

The simple solution is thais........
Talk to the PRO and get a license.
It isn't a 'hefty royalty fee' at all.

Any bar, cafe or restaurant is benefitting from live music being performed.
As for unfairness? Another unfairness is this particular cafe competing with businesses who do the right thing and pay for a music license.
As people who are involved in music, we should be supporting the venues and promoters who do the right thing, not supporting those who don't, thus giving them a financial advantage over local bars and cafes who do pay the fee.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by John N

I fear this is going to be a growing trend.

I would hope so. Seriously. Hear me out. I'll probably get flamed like I did the last time......but oh well........

Originally Posted by John N

Am I missing something here?

Thanks
JN

John, yes, I think so.

Here's the deal. A song does not have to be a "cover" song in the traditional sense - as in "brittany's or U2's latest hit" - to be considered a "cover" or to be covered in ASCAP, BMI's etc. catalog.

Are your songs "published" on your CD's? In other words, do you have a publishing company yourself? Are the songs registered with BMI, ASCAP, etc? Publishing companies and the PRO's that represent them are not only big fat cats, they are small businesses set up by and for YOU - the songwriter. If you have a publishing company listed on your CD, then you are entitled - BY LAW - to a BMI/ASCAP/etc royalty when your songs are "publicly" performed, and ASCAP/BMI/et al are going to bat for YOU the composer by hitting up the venue(s). Whenever your song is performed - live by you, on radio, via internet streaming, on TV, etc. the PRO's are commissioned by LAW to collect your royalties. That's a BLESSING, not a curse. If your songs are NOT registered with a PRO, then you as a songwriter are loosing out on a significant revenue stream that could make or break you being able to continue to do music for fun or profit.

The only way around this for a venue is to have each and every performer issue the venue a "direct license" that allows the venue to take advantage of not paying the PRO's. I have never seen a venue successfully pull that off as the very mention of a legal document sends most musicians running for cover, and the potential for a slip up is almost 100%. The easiest thing to do is pay the PRO's. But that cuts into their profits, and they don't like that.

But, all that said, direct licenses are legit and legal. Basically, it says you agree to sign away your rights to the venue. So that they can profit off your performance and not pay BMI/ASCAP/etc. for the right to do so.

Generally, publishing companies ask for COMPENSATION UP FRONT for a direct license, but you don't have to if you don't want to.

Again, if none of the songs performed are registered with ASCAP/BMI, then all of this is moot, but SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE, SOMETIME is going to play a song that IS registered, and that's when they will (or in this case were) get popped for illegal performances without a license.

Honestly, the PRO's are aware of the venue and roughly how much venue's of this type pull in from live music. They prorate the licence fee's accordingly. they genenerally are fair in the fee's until the venue gets huffy about "I don't have to pay you ****". That's when they usually bring the hammer down. My guess is that your venue is ignorant of the laws, got popped, and is now crying the blues.

They should pay up and be happy that there's still live musicians that like to frequent their establishment.

I hope I explained it well......

It's the "little guys" that need PRO's the most.


Good luck with your gigs!

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by John N

... some constructive suggestions here ...

I wish I had any. But, as usual, I'm just offering whatever absurdity I catch racing through my brain.

Meanwhile, I am being hounded by ladybugs diving-bombing my head, and that certainly doesn't help my concentration any.

I'd listen to Chris, he's someone who seems to actually know something-- rather than you or me, who are just reacting to what we hear. I see all kinds of live music everywhere, there has to be some means by hook or crook to make it happen?

But-- advice? Career advice? I'd do as much as possible to separate yourselves from the legions of your peers. Find someone who has a camera, and take a series of publicity shots, dressed up as couples from history: Bonnie and Clyde, Antony and Cleopatra, Adolph and Eva, John and Yoko. I'd stage concerts out in the open somewhere, on a sidewalk, in a parking lot. There must be local radio stations, little AM jobs around you? Get on the air, offer a prize for a songwriting contest, "The Best Song Mentioning The Name Of Our Town." Perform in the bed of a pickup truck driving down Main Street, leading a Singer/Songwriter Parade?

You need attention... and if some coffeehouse is unwilling to book you, move on. Don't waste a precious moment fretting about it.

[bigtom]

The problem I have with PROs hitting up the small shops is that they don't pay you if one of your songs are performed. They don't don't keep track of whose songs are covered. They put that money in their own pockets. Why does a small business have to keep the PROs afloat. Why aren't the song writers paying them themselves. The argument always is that they have to take care of the song writer and performer, but they'll never see a dime from these fees.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by bigtom

The argument always is that they have to take care of the song writer and performer, but they'll never see a dime from these fees.

bigtom, I disagree completely. The OP sounds like he's trying to "move up" in the music world. And without publishing intact and working for you, that's akin to going up to bat to see if you can knock one out with 2 strikes against you before you even step up to the plate. He states he's selling CD's. If you're selling CD's and don't have a publishing company with ASCAP/BMI, you are flushing potential revenue streams down the toilet. Especially where there are so many smaller revenue streams for songwriters these days.

That said, I don't know what I'm arguing about. Let all the songwriters NOT join. It's THEIR money that will help pay to get my car fixed or for health insurance.


PS - they really don't hit small shops very hard as you suggest. It's when they find flagrant abuse, and a devil may care attitude that they go to town and play hardball. There's nothing in it for them when they stop a venue from playing music only to have them go out of business. That's no good for anyone.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by bigtom

The problem I have with PROs hitting up the small shops is that they don't pay you if one of your songs are performed. They don't don't keep track of whose songs are covered. They put that money in their own pockets.

PRO's are all non-profit.

Secondly John mentioned in his other thread the fee discussed was $1200 per year.
that seems very little for a whole year of live music (potentially) plus the right to legally play recorded music in the coffee shop.
I'd think a weeks worth of coffee grounds to make the brew would come to more than that.

Bottom line......
It's unfair to promote live music at your venue without a license while competing venues are doing the right thing and paying for a license.
In the end, if those doing the right thing resort to dodging the license under financial pressure brought on by other venues..... musicians will be the ones to suffer.

[John N]

Originally Posted by drBill

bigtom, I disagree completely. The OP sounds like he's trying to "move up" in the music world. And without publishing intact and working for you, that's akin to going up to bat to see if you can knock one out with 2 strikes against you before you even step up to the plate. He states he's selling CD's. If you're selling CD's and don't have a publishing company with ASCAP/BMI, you are flushing potential revenue streams down the toilet. Especially where there are so many smaller revenue streams for songwriters these days.

That said, I don't know what I'm arguing about. Let all the songwriters NOT join. It's THEIR money that will help pay to get my car fixed or for health insurance.


PS - they really don't hit small shops very hard as you suggest. It's when they find flagrant abuse, and a devil may care attitude that they go to town and play hardball. There's nothing in it for them when they stop a venue from playing music only to have them go out of business. That's no good for anyone.

OP here... I am affiliated with BMI and our CD and its songs are registered works. I have a somewhat pessimistic feeling that, as bigtom said, I will never see a dime from any royalties collected from small venues like this.
Maybe other streams, but that hasn't happened yet, so we'll see. It may be too early to tell since the CD was just released in Oct. We may still be babes in the woods and have a lot to learn about the business end even in late middle age. There may be some things we haven't done that we should have to insure some of these mythical streams of income - what are they? We are self-published but technically we have not set up a publishing 'company'.

[bigtom]

Originally Posted by John N

OP here... I am affiliated with BMI and our CD and its songs are registered works. I have a somewhat pessimistic feeling that, as bigtom said, I will never see a dime from any royalties collected from small venues like this.

And you won't. People could play nothing but your songs in the same club 365 nights a year and you won't see a dime. You only get paid from the sale of your music not from some one else performing it live. So why does any club have to pay for a license if the PROs are not paying out for it. Where does that license fee go.

In the PROs pocket, thats where.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by John N

OP here... I am affiliated with BMI and our CD and its songs are registered works. I have a somewhat pessimistic feeling that, as bigtom said, I will never see a dime from any royalties collected from small venues like this.
Maybe other streams, but that hasn't happened yet, so we'll see. It may be too early to tell since the CD was just released in Oct. We may still be babes in the woods and have a lot to learn about the business end even in late middle age. There may be some things we haven't done that we should have to insure some of these mythical streams of income - what are they? We are self-published but technically we have not set up a publishing 'company'.

John. You signed a contract with BMI. One would hope that before signing, you understood what they do, and why they do it. But it sounds like you didn't.

BMI is probably your #1 source for how to get noticed. They are set up to help young songwriters and performers. There are also many websites that are devoted to helping composers / songwriters.

Today, as in never before, the opportunities in TV and smaller films are ABUNDANT. Maybe not a lot of up front, but often, the smaller films generate MUCH more BMI money from TV plays than larger films. Internet streaming. Youtube. Music Libraries. There are opportunities all over the place if you step outside the box and think creative.

You did good to register. Now, figure out what they do for you, why they do it, and how you can capitolize on it. You will probably never get rich, but the opportunities are available. All that's missing is you taking advantage of them. An established manager could certainly help you if you can find one to take you on.

Or do it yourself.

There's a new organization designed to collect on streaming internet music. There was a big article in the LA Times about all the musicians that have checks sitting there in their name, but won't check in to collect because they are suspicious of "the man" and "big business" and "the big fat cats" in the music biz.

Check it out:

Take your royalty checks, SoundExchange begs - Los Angeles Times

: streaming royalties : Broadcast Law Blog


there are organizations like soundscan and bmi out there to help you. Get educated and use them to leverage your resources, talents, and opportunities.

Guaranteed, some little shop owner is not going to take your best interest at heart, no matter how much they love your music.

Good luck. thumbsup

bp

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by bigtom

In the PROs pocket, thats where.

Like I said... they are all not for profit.

Check out your facts and update your views.

While you're at it...
The money the regional cafe made on the Friday night music sessions...... where did that go?

[drBill]

Originally Posted by bigtom

And you won't. People could play nothing but your songs in the same club 365 nights a year and you won't see a dime. You only get paid from the sale of your music not from some one else performing it live. So why does any club have to pay for a license if the PROs are not paying out for it. Where does that license fee go.

In the PROs pocket, thats where.

Sounds like sour grapes big tom. After expenses, all PRO collections go to WRITERS. What percentages go where.......well, that's open to debate.

But I can tell you one thing. When I took the reins in my own hands and quit WAITING for royalties to pour in, when I got out and took advantage of the opportunities, THAT's when it all started flowing. I was a ghostwriter for 10-15 years and saw little.

Then, I pulled the plug on that and started promoting ME and MY music, and it's paying off. Enough that after 5 years or so of VERY hard work, I will be able to pretty much live off royalties.

the PRO's are paying out for it. Trust me. I'm getting it, my buddies are getting it. If you're not, I think the question would be why. Squeeky wheel gets the grease......

[bigtom]

Who pays their salaries? Do members of PROs pay them? No, they get their salaries from the fees that they collect. If these fees were divided up amongst all BMI/ASCAP members that would be one thing, but that doesn't happen. Not For Profit doesn't mean they don't get paid.

[drBill]

Hey John, I know you probably don't do "urban" music, but this is typical of the type of "help UNSIGNED songwriters" approach that BMI puts into play :

https://app.e2ma.net/app/view:Campai...ce561723f30ec5

You can see below, they have something coming up for Rock writers....

[drBill]

Originally Posted by bigtom

Who pays their salaries? Do members of PROs pay them? No, they get their salaries from the fees that they collect. If these fees were divided up amongst all BMI/ASCAP members that would be one thing, but that doesn't happen. Not For Profit doesn't mean they don't get paid.

No. Not for profit, means not for profit. It doesn't mean the people that work there don't get paid.

You need to do some research on that. How are you going to divide up fees collected if there's no one to collect them?

I for one am HAPPY to pay their salaries, as without them I'd get ZIP. IT"S HAPPENING!!! Not just for me, but in a greater or lesser degree, with everyone I work with that's a writer. With BMI working for me, I have a fighting chance at making a living in the music biz. If I'd only pursued that avenue 10-15 years earlier, it would be smooth sailing right now..... Without BMI, I'm dead in the water. End of career. Story over.

Get your "facts" straight.

[bigtom]

Dr Bill, I understand exactly what not for profit means. I understand that without the PROs their is no one to collect your cut. I understand that you deserve your cut. I understand that you make your living from that cut.

What I don't understand is how you yourself or anybody for that matter, get paid from the fees that get collected from small venues or large venues for that matter.

[ivmike]

Originally Posted by bigtom

And you won't. People could play nothing but your songs in the same club 365 nights a year and you won't see a dime. You only get paid from the sale of your music not from some one else performing it live. So why does any club have to pay for a license if the PROs are not paying out for it. Where does that license fee go.

In the PROs pocket, thats where.

The quoted post is 100% wrong.

All PROs are non-profit.

In order to receive your royalties from live performances, or to enable artists that you've covered to receive their royalties, you must submit your set list to your PRO for every show.

I receive royalty payments from my PRO; some songs are on the radio, some are in movies, some are in commercials and yes, some were performed live by either me or someone else.

[ivmike]

And before I forget; I also book part-time for a club in my city; I sat down with our PRO and paid for a license so that we could continue to have live music at our venue. The cost was negligible. Also, we use Satellite Radio which now has a built-in PRO fee in the monthly membership.

I have little sympathy for club owners that don't pay their fair share of PRO fees.