As some of you guys

[Ruphus]

seem to equal box-office hits with quality just because being a gold, platinum, whatever seller ...
I know, not really actual, but anyway ... as minutes before someone in the neighbourhood cranked up this stupid "Goldfinger" James Bond thingy, the hype about it of years ago just came into my mind.
"Gooooldfingeeeeeeeeeer" ... brrrr grudge

I always found this piece a cheapish, pseudo cabaret stylish piece of sh!t. Absolutely unauthentic and would-be sounding.

I mean I don´t give too much about categories of styles and all that, only care for music itself, but this thing came along like when a naive and untalented composer wanted to imitate style, copied some typical components and ready was the fake.

I think such a product could only be accepted where knowledge of preceded music was sort of under developed.

Ok, you can jump on me now
And say that the composer was an original himself and the song a sparkling unique piece of its class.

But please come with trumpets. Cause my name is James, James Bond.

[e-cue]

I'm not sure I follow your post Ruph... What exactly is it you don't like? A James Bond movie? A character in a James Bond Movie? The score to a James Bond movie?

[Ruphus]

Hi E-que,

you´re right I´m not exactly a fan of this 007 stuff that I couldn´t bend my brain to follow it´s string of nonesense and political demagogy it mostly consisted of. ( Have seen only 1 or two of the old films though, the rest I know from critiques and reports ).

But what I am about is when music ( Here the soundtrack of a James Bond movie called "Goldfinger" ) pretends to be something ( imitates other creatively made, original songs or styles ) while it is made so undemanding and cheapish itself. - And the audience still will follow due to lack of judgement and also simply, because the product is made up impressingly ( here a highly expected movie to be associated with, but it could just also be a famous club or repetition on the radio / TV ... Whatever makes the average individual suppose that a piece is widely accepted will make the product appear rather valuable to him. I say play a dull song on the media all the time or put it in another highly regarded sourrounding and it will be sold and celebrated. Even if its is only something like Goldfinger. )

Greets,

Ruphus

[BevvyB]

Sometimes a take on the present musical climate can go on to represent it.

All films, TV and media has this. It is an imprint of the time, whether it is 'original' or not.

Starsky And Hutch, Streets Of San Fransisco to name but two US TV shows that reflected the time in the music theme but weren't exactly the 'real deal'.

But years later, you hear those things and you get a view into the past.

Sometimes these things become kitsch. Sometimes they become 'cool'.

I wonder how we'll be viewing the soundtrack to The Matrix in a few years. And can you compare using a Garbage track on a Bond film to Shirley Bassey? Well, they both reflected the time, but the Garbage track actually WAS the time.....and you know, I'd have preffered something less obvious, and probably nore naff.

For me, Shirley Bassey's song is indelibly printed on that film and everything it's about. It sums up the nonsense glamour and kitsch over the top cheese, and the oversophistication of Mr Bond. Having Garbage on a later soundtrack reminds me of Garbage. Even Sheena Easton somehow made an imprint on 'For Your Eyes Only'. She was appropriately naff.

'A View To A Kill' by Duran Duran helped in no way whatsoever. In my opinion, you can't have an artist as the title song of a movie which has more identity than the movie itself. It smothers the movie with the taste of someone elses ideas and fashion values. Madonna song as soundtrack to a Bond film? Modonna makes you think of Madonna. Shirley Bassey soundtrack makes me think of James Bond

Film music has had a place all it's own and I quite liked it there.

(Walks offf whistling the theme song to 'Arthur' which is goddamn awful, followed by Celine Donut singing 'Titanic')

[littledog]

Expanding on Bevvy's insightful comments:

I think you have to view soundtrack music (and other types as well) in the historical context of when the film was made, and how it served the function for which it was created.

The James Bond movie genre was always supposed to have a bit of "tongue-in-cheek" campiness to it, and the music reflected it. The soundtracks for dramatic "thriller" movies of that era were strongly influenced by the iconic examples that preceded it - and it was NOT an era of understatement or subtlety. Examples range from the classic Hitchcock "Psycho strings" of the shower scene, to perhaps the ultimate Spy movie theme master - Henry Mancini (think "Peter Gunn" and "Pink Panther".)

Viewed in that light, the James Bond themes were not particularly over the top. If you were old enough (as I am) to actually have grown up in that era, the various 007 recurring thematic material was at least as memorable musically as anything we've seen from John Williams. (And I say that respectfully).

The use of Shirley Bassey and her style of singing was, again, evocative of a certain era. Go back and look at all the record album cover artwork from jazzy type records from the late-fifties-early-sixties, and you'll see slinky females in low cut evening gowns on a huge number of them. That was supposed to sell the record as sophisticated and subliminally (or not so subliminally) sexy. This was pre-hippy remember. Back then the mainstream version of hip sophistication meant smoking a pipe (or unfiltered cigarettes), driving a two-seater roadster, using Brylcreem on your hair, drinking martinis, listening to Chet Baker... in other words: Sinatra/Bond/Brando etc.

In evoking that context, Shirley Bassey was actually a perfect choice.

This is not in any way an attempt to convince you to like it or not. More just an attempt to show that perhaps this is yet another example of "You had to be there..."

For me, it's kind of like trying to explain the appeal of Bob Dylan to those who didn't grow up in the late 1960's. (Typical comment: "How can you listen to him? His voice is so AWFUL!!!") Yet, to many, he was THE voice of a whole generation. To me, Dylan is genius, but again, maybe you had to actually live through the anti-war/anti-racism/counterculture movements and events of the time (1960's) to truly appreciate him. Perhaps re-releases of his music should be sold with a mini-cannister of tear gas to get the proper vibe!

[Ruphus]

If you were old enough (as I am) to actually have grown up in that era,

I am old enough.

All that you say about fitting components like choice of a singer that should help the song become sort of authentical, or that 007 is not to be taken serious, is right, but what has it to do about the fact that Goldfinger has become accepted as a piece of music by itself?

Would you put garbage in the showcase just because it fitted so properly in the garbage ton?

I relate to it as what it appears to me as a piece of music and as such it is still an inferior quality fake of a genre. It sounds just rediculous, no matter how well it might be considered to fit to the movie.

What Dylan is concerned, yes he was bound to a unique period and he without question was a great song writing talent. And he is another good example that an imperfect voice can still make an interesting singer. But when it comes to authencity ( right spelled?) as you mentioned, I don´t take him for serious either.

He says it himself that he isn´t interested in politics. Actually he is a rather reactionary type and held weapon industry stockings already in the times when his fans thought him to be a fighter for human rights. For him the revolutionary mood was a fashion on which he had his success. No prob though as his work supported the mentality in those times anyway, - but so far about authentic work.

Goldfinger musically gave me even much less of an authentic feeling, no matter what means or purposes. A work awfully fiddled together.

[littledog]

Originally posted by Ruphus

All that you say about fitting components like choice of a singer that should help the song become sort of authentical, or that 007 is not to be taken serious, is right, but what has it to do about the fact that Goldfinger has become accepted as a piece of music by itself?

Would you put garbage in the showcase just because it fitted so properly in the garbage ton?

I relate to it as what it appears to me as a piece of music and as such it is still an inferior quality fake of a genre. It sounds just rediculous, no matter how well it might be considered to fit to the movie.

If it is being played as a serious piece of music, perhaps it is either an oddity of Germanic culture thing or perhaps you just have an eccentric neighbor. Here in Boston you could probably monitor every radio station for a year and not hear it played even once, unless someone happened to be doing a James Bond theme show. It would almost never be played out of context. No one ever claimed it was Beethoven.

Think of it more like the old Warner Brothers cartoon theme music ("That's All, Folks!") - brilliant in the context of the cartoons, but hardly what most people would listen to out of context.

Originally posted by Ruphus

What Dylan is concerned, yes he was bound to a unique period and he without question was a great song writing talent. And he is another good example that an imperfect voice can still make an interesting singer. But when it comes to authencity ( right spelled?) as you mentioned, I don´t take him for serious either.

He says it himself that he isn´t interested in politics. Actually he is a rather reactionary type and held weapon industry stockings already in the times when his fans thought him to be a fighter for human rights. For him the revolutionary mood was a fashion on which he had his success. No prob though as his work supported the mentality in those times anyway, - but so far about authentic work.

OK - it is conceded that as Dylan aged he lost much of his left wing political credentials. Much as many people do... we're not all Noam Chomsky. I'm not sure that invalidates in any way the artistry (or politics) of his youth. While you may be old enough (in your 50's?), the impact of his music on the whole American counterculture and the politics of left wing American youth was undeniable. The SDS Weathermen (left wing enough for you?) got their very name from a Dylan lyric: "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."

Like what he is now or not, for at least five years he was the leading voice of the anti-Vietnam War movement in the United States. I think it is fair to say that he had as much effect on radicalizing and mobilizing American youth of that time as any other single cultural force. His music was played and sung at every anti-war demonstration and activity of the time.

But like I said, maybe you had to be there.

Would I have preferred he didn't become a born-again Christian, etc.? Sure!
I also would have preferred that Bobby Fischer didn't turn out to be a raving paranoid rightwing nutcase. Doesn't invalidate the chess accomplishments of his youth though...

[Ruphus]

I´m on the early way to my fiftiest.

As I said about Dylan´s work: "No prob though as his work supported the mentality in those times anyway," you can see that I appreciate the effect.

That Goldfinger thingy at times isn´t played on the radio too much here either ( ... at least I estimate so, - am very rarely listening to radio, since the times it became crammed with hihop and techno monotonisms ), but it was for quite a while in the years after that film and it still pops up from time to time here and there.

[Meriphew]

I'm wondering why Bjork never did a Bond theme song. She would be fantastic.

[Ruphus]

The idea sounds really interesting. If the producers came to such an imagination ...

... and maybe a new approach to skript as well ...

"May name is James, James Smart."

[littledog]

Originally posted by mdbeh
About soundtracks... it's true that they don't tend to hold up well outside the movie, but that's ok--that's what they were made for.

Nino Rota's stuff (Fellini) might be the exception...

[BevvyB]

Listen, actually, nothing is as bad as David Arnold's bond theme he did with Sheryl Crowe - 'Tomorrow Never Dies'....

...it's an imitation of the bad stuff that Ruphus doesn't like! 2nd hand useless....

Makes Goldfinger sound lke a work of undisputed genius in every way conceivable.

[littledog]

Originally posted by mdbeh
I've heard that music and enjoyed it while watching the movies, but I've never really sat down and listened to it. Are there any CDs you'd recommend?

I do seem to remember someone coming out with either a CD anthology of his music, or perhaps a fresh interpretation of his themes a while back. I can't really remember. Obviously I don't own it myself...

Maybe do a Nino Rota search on Amazon?

[Ruphus]

Originally posted by BevvyB
Listen, actually, nothing is as bad as David Arnold's bond theme he did with Sheryl Crowe - 'Tomorrow Never Dies'....

...it's an imitation of the bad stuff that Ruphus doesn't like! 2nd hand useless....

Makes Goldfinger sound lke a work of undisputed genius in every way conceivable.

Just like much of the fromer crap of the old times like some of the disco stuff ( Gloria Gaynor etc.) today gains much more of my respect, less because of nostalgy, but simply because there was so much quality of composing, playing, inventing even with the "low level" stuff compared to most of what is in todays charts.

But for fairness sake I think I should mention that especially in regard of originality times were easier ( apart of an absolutely unique accumulation of talent around 60s/seventies ) in my opinion. In my view musical diversity isn´t endlessly possible and after predecessors like Mozart, Beatles, Zep, Stones etc.pp. it has become almost undoable to compose something completely distinguished from what there has been before. One can still be in some way original and show personality, but inventions are much more of a challenge. Good sounding ones even more.

The Beatles were not only fantastic musicians, but they also lived in a paradise of undiscovered fields.
Now with every single note if you look closer at it you find a copyright stamp on it.

[Burt]

my recommendations would be:

Rocco & His Brothers
La Dolce Vita
Juliet of the Spirits

I have lots of other fave Rota tracks from individual albums but these soundtracks are good all the way thru IMO.



Burt

[BevvyB]

The Argument Clinic




A reception desk in a sort of office building.




Receptionist: Yes, sir?




Man: I'd like to have an argument please.




Receptionist: Certainly, sir, have you been here before...?




Man: No, this is my first time.




Receptionist: I see. Do you want to have the full argument, or were you thinking of taking a course?




Man: Well, what would be the cost?




Receptionist: Yes, it's one pound for a five-minute argument, but only eight pounds for a course of ten.




Man: Well, I think it's probably best of I start with the one and see how it goes from there. OK?




Receptionist: Fine. I'll see who's free at the moment... Mr. Du-Bakey's free, but he's a little bit concilliatory... Yes, try Mr. Barnard -- Room 12.




Man: Thank you.




[...] The man knocks on the door.




Mr Vibrating:(from within) Come in.




The man enters the room. Mr Vibrating is sitting at a desk.




Man: Is this the right room for an argument?




Mr Vibrating: I've told you once.




Man: No you haven't.




Mr Vibrating: Yes I have.




Man: When?




Mr Vibrating: Just now!




Man: No you didn't.




Mr Vibrating: Yes I did!




Man: Didn't.




Mr Vibrating: Did.




Man: Didn't.




Mr Vibrating: I'm telling you I did!




Man: You did not!




Mr Vibrating: I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half-hour?




Man: Oh, just a five minute one.




Mr Vibrating: Fine. (makes a note of it; the man sits down) Thank you. Anyway I did.




Man: You most certainly did not.




Mr Vibrating: Now, let's get one thing quite clear... I most definitely told you!




Man: You did not.




Mr Vibrating: Yes I did.




Man: You did not.




Mr Vibrating: Yes I did.




Man: Didn't.




Mr Vibrating: Yes I did.




Man: Didn't.




Mr Vibrating: Yes I did!!




Man: Look this isn't an argument.




Mr Vibrating: Yes it is.




Man: No it isn't, it's just contradiction.




Mr Vibrating: No it isn't.




Man: Yes it is.




Mr Vibrating: It is not.




Man: It is. You just contradicted me.




Mr Vibrating: No I didn't.




Man: Ooh, you did!




Mr Vibrating: No, no, no, no, no.




Man: You did, just then.




Mr Vibrating: No, nonsense!




Man: Oh, look this is futile.




Mr Vibrating: No it isn't.




Man: I came here for a good argument.




Mr Vibrating: No you didn't, you came here for an argument.




Man: Well, an argument's not the same as contradiction.




Mr Vibrating: It can be.




Man: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a definite proposition.




Mr Vibrating: No it isn't.




Man: Yes it is. It isn't just contradiction.




Mr Vibrating: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.




Man: But it isn't just saying "No it isn't".




Mr Vibrating: Yes it is.




Man: No it isn't, an argument is an intellectual process... contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.




Mr Vibrating: No it isn't.




Man: Yes it is.




Mr Vibrating: Not at all.




Man: Now look!




Mr Vibrating:(pressing the bell on his desk) Thank you, good morning.




Man: What?




Mr Vibrating: That's it. Good morning.




Man: But I was just getting interested.




Mr Vibrating: Sorry the five minutes is up.




Man: That was never five minutes just now!




Mr Vibrating: I'm afraid it was.




Man: No it wasn't.




Mr Vibrating: I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to argue any more.




Man: What!?




Mr Vibrating: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.




Man: But that was never five minutes just now... oh come on! (Vibrating looks round as though man was not there) This is ridiculous.




Mr Vibrating: I'm very sorry, but I told you I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid.




Man: Oh. All right. (pays) There you are.




Mr Vibrating: Thank you.




Man: Well?




Mr Vibrating: Well what?




Man: That was never five minutes just now.




Mr Vibrating: I told you I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid.




Man: I've just paid.




Mr Vibrating: No you didn't.




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Mr Vibrating: No you didn't.




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Mr Vibrating: Well I'm very sorry but you didn't pay.




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Mr Vibrating: No you haven't.




Man: Yes I have... if you're arguing I must have paid.




Mr Vibrating: Not necessarily. I could be arguing in my spare time.




Man: I've had enough of this.




Mr Vibrating: No you haven't.

[Ruphus]

BEVVY!!
Where have you got this from? I just can´t stop laughing my ass off.
Sounds a bit like Monty Python.

[BevvyB]

It is.
I was going to change all the names to Burt and Ruphus but couldn't be bothered.

(BTW, if you haven't seen this sketch than go out now and buy all the videos - this is my all time favourite next to the 'silly walk' sketch)

[Ruphus]

Then you must have certainly seen the one where they get a media award of some sort. I thought I would be dying when I saw that one. Am surely getting me their collection one day.

BTW; I found "The life of Brian" somewhat dissapointing. Think they missed plenty of opportunities with that one.

Nevertheless, priceless artists!

Thanks for giving me the scetch words above.


Ruphus

[BevvyB]

Thank me one day

_http://homepage.mac.com/bevvyb/

I LIKE Life of Brian

But i'm not getting into an argument about it

[tommyd]

Yes you are.
I LOVE Monty Python!
Thanks for the morning chuckle!

[Burt]

damn... sorry wrong room...

I was looking for the Wind Up Clinic

Burt

ps. Ruphus do you think The Beatles would be doing Hip Hop if they were still around?

[Ruphus]

NEVER EVER!!

... Except of McCartney maybe, who would be trying to appear more individual as the other individuals of the band by approaching the mainstream.

[Ruphus]

And Bevvy, thanks for the file, I´m at downloading.
You got an flying connection there, over 90 kb/s phew!

Now, I am under the table already.
Hihihihi, whoohooo!

I love how you can hear the bill switch the owner. Real stereo!
"h-hm h-m, h-hm h-m"