Taking on a production which you know will be nerve-wrecking! Yes/No?

[in the red]

i made a record with a band last year who´s main man is a quiet "intensive" guy. it got to the level where it was very personal, bad vibe all the time, the guy even threatened me on the phone!
it really took all my strength to pull through that production, i always thought any other producer/engineer would have pulled the plug.
anyway, musically/sonically it turned out great, i loved the music, i still do!

today i got a call from him asking if i would produce their next record! i really don´t know what to think about that! on one hand i know it will be nerve-wrecking again, even if there won´t be quarrels or something, the guy just talks way too much! on the other hand i love his music and respect his talents!

so i ask myself: is it worth it? should i pass or just tell myself "hey, it´s business!"?

[Glenn Kuras]

Tough call which only you really can make. For myself if I needed the work I would try to figure out how to work with him (as in you stay in control by understanding the personality you are working with). If I had so much work that they really would not change my yearly income I would pass. Not to many people working have that opportunity though. As is pointed out a lot here on GS this is a people business as much as an art.

edit:When you say "threatened you", do you mean physical threat?

[ivmike]

Raise your price significantly; this way, if he balks, you don't work with him; if he agrees to the higher price, then it might be worth it.

[in the red]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

edit:When you say "threatened you", do you mean physical threat?

yes

[in the red]

Originally Posted by ivmike

Raise your price significantly; this way, if he balks, you don't work with him; if he agrees to the higher price, then it might be worth it.

yeah, thats one thing i thought of...

[chrisdee]

Originally Posted by in the red

i made a record with a band last year who´s main man is a quiet "intensive" guy. it got to the level where it was very personal, bad vibe all the time, the guy even threatened me on the phone!
it really took all my strength to pull through that production, i always thought any other producer/engineer would have pulled the plug.
anyway, musically/sonically it turned out great, i loved the music, i still do!

today i got a call from him asking if i would produce their next record! i really don´t know what to think about that! on one hand i know it will be nerve-wrecking again, even if there won´t be quarrels or something, the guy just talks way too much! on the other hand i love his music and respect his talents!

so i ask myself: is it worth it? should i pass or just tell myself "hey, it´s business!"?

If there was so much friction the first time and he still calls you, then he must think you are really good. Maby it's the friction that made it so good.

On the other hand, maby he's a psycho that's trying to break you down with bad vibes.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by in the red

yeah, thats one thing i thought of...

music, money, people.

2 out of 3 are good, makes the project worth doing.

1 is taken care of, so you need number 2 to make it worth your while.

Also have a clause written in that any threatening behaviour and you walk with 100% of your fee!

[Larry Mal]

If you want to do it, get together with this person and have a good, long talk about why you're having reservations about this (although it seems obvious to anyone). Under no circumstances is that acceptable, and you should make it very clear that it isn't, and you'll cease your part of the job as soon as anything like it happens.

I'd also try and get as much money in advance as you can, and make sure that you have a contract drawn up that gives the the ability to keep it even in the event that you have to stop working on the project at any point.

If this seems harsh and unfair to this character, well, that's why making physical and other threats doesn't work in the real world. Now is as fine a time for him to learn that as any, since he missed it when he should have in fifth grade.

But that's what I would suggest, clear the air, and cover your ass. Nothing is more clear than simply saying, "I'm not putting up with even a second of that, and as soon as it happens I'm taking my advance and calling it a day. Otherwise, you'll have the good employee that you've had in the past, so it's really up to you."


Edit: Or, what I now see that Psycho Monkey has said. I would say if anybody is probably in the know about this sort of thing, it would be someone named "Psycho Monkey". I'd listen to him.

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by in the red

yes

Oh then I am totally with psycho_monkey.

[toneguru]

If you are losing sleep when working with this guy then don't do it.

If you honestly fear for your personal safety when working with him then don't do it.

Otherwise do the gig.

PS. It might not be wise to have a heart to heart with him about what boundaries you need to feel comfortable. It may have you looking weak and possibly not up to the task. You already know that the talk will not work anyway.

[RockManDan]

eh, depends on how you do it. if you lay it out straight up beforehand that you won't take any crap, then you look like the one with the bigger set, and he can take it or leave it.

I say decide upfront that you will only work for x dollars with y amount upfront (hopefully as close as you can get to 100%). You reserve the right to bail at any time if you feel threatened in any way, and that you won't hesitate to bring the law in if you are threatened in body or in property. Get this in writing, signed, and notarized if you want. Make sure you make him understand that you are in charge of the sessions, and that difficult behavior will only make him lose time and money.

Decide these things to yourself upfront, have a stiff drink, then call him and and tell him how it is. He's coming to you, so you have the upper hand. It is now his job to court you for your expertise, so congrats! you are in the best position!

[chrisso]

I disagree about the money thing. It's not as simple as that.
I think it should be a career thing.

Is doing this project going to result in work you are proud of and will advance your career? If so, I would seriously consider doing it despite the pain.

I've worked on very difficult projects. Sometimes I had to sit in a toilet booth at the studio feeling like I needed to throw up.
At the end of it, if the music sucks I would deeply regret being involved. For the most part I have to admit these situations often resulted in work i was extremely proud of, work I've been congratulated on for years since, and work that most definitely furthered my career.

My experience is if you only accept work for the 'right' money, and work that is completely enjoyable, it's far less likely you'll find yourself working on important recordings, if nothing else your personal development is slowed.
Caveat: I would never let my personal safety be compromised.

[toneguru]

Originally Posted by RockManDan

eh, depends on how you do it. if you lay it out straight up beforehand that you won't take any crap, then you look like the one with the bigger set, and he can take it or leave it.

I say decide upfront that you will only work for x dollars with y amount upfront (hopefully as close as you can get to 100%). You reserve the right to bail at any time if you feel threatened in any way, and that you won't hesitate to bring the law in if you are threatened in body or in property. Get this in writing, signed, and notarized if you want. Make sure you make him understand that you are in charge of the sessions, and that difficult behavior will only make him lose time and money.

Decide these things to yourself upfront, have a stiff drink, then call him and and tell him how it is. He's coming to you, so you have the upper hand. It is now his job to court you for your expertise, so congrats! you are in the best position!

I cannot say that the above is entirely correct.

For one thing "giving crap" is not a black and white issue.

For another, he may be coming back to you for the fact that you can take his shit without getting bent. That is a very big thing in this industry. If you can keep your ego out of it and carry on, it is noticed and appreciated by all. They may not utter a word of gratitude to you but it is huge.

Also, over the years the artists that have tested me the most are the ones that have helped me to grow the most. Think of working with testy types as a zen polishing. Be more concerned and aware of how you react (or better yet respond) to his abrasive nature. Be less concerned about his emotional outbursts.

I am not saying that it is easy but the older and wiser one gets the more your uptight clients kind of rubbish rolls off the back.

Try to approach him as a friend and an easy guy to work with and try to never flinch or change your pace. He will silently respect you for this.

Working with him can be good for you.

PS. Save the stiff drink for after the session (I recommend Kettle One on the rocks).

[chris319]

Perhaps the reason he wants to work with you again is that no one else wants to? IOW perhaps he has burned all his bridges except the one to you (not inconceivable if he makes physical threats).

How about 50% up front nonrefundable? If there are any verbal physical threats he can kiss the 50% goodbye, give him his recordings and that's the end of it. If he follows through on his physical threats, it's time to get law enforcement involved. Set a rate which compensates you for your grief. Get it all in writing, signed by both parties. If you have a friend who is a lawyer and will look over the contract for you, so much the better.

[-silent-sam-]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

music, money, people.

2 out of 3 are good, makes the project worth doing.

1 is taken care of, so you need number 2 to make it worth your while.

Also have a clause written in that any threatening behaviour and you walk with 100% of your fee!

I agree..... and good idea about the "threatening behavior" clause.

If that STILL doesn't make you feel better and you are still considering not taking on the project, then I would be straight up with him and tell him exactly what you told us and let him decide.

"on one hand i know it will be nerve-wrecking again, even if there won´t be quarrels or something, the guy just talks way too much! on the other hand i love his music and respect his talents"

If you are already considering not taking on the project then what's the worst that could happen? He will call you an asshole and go work with someone else.... if you are already considering turning down the project, then you really have nothing to lose.

Best case scenario he will appreciate that you "love his music and respect his talents" and in return he will respect you, by not acting like a jerk-off.

[oscar gamble]

I'd definitely reconsider jacking your price exclusively for them.

Unless you plan to stick to that new rate for a majority of your future sessions, word would get back that you were charging more than your normal rate depending on how small of a music community you work in.

Plus, asking for more money would only give the jerk in the band something to brood further upon and heave extra pressure on you to 'deliver' since they're paying you more money now.

Dumb people are easy to work with. Mean, dumb people are not.

[Elevteros]

For what it is worth, see my punch line.
I wouldn't do it.

Critical, fine. Intense, fine. Hard to please, fine.
But I have never ever accepted to work with/for anybody who made me feel uneasy.
And I have never regretted it. BTW anybody who would threaten me would be out the door in 5 seconds flat.
Trust your instinct, and better safe than sorry.
Money and career are only 2 of the many components of a "good" life.

[area51recording]

Difficult clients are one thing, physical threats are something else entirely. This tool is taking the "troubled artist" thing to a new level when he does that. Don't take that sh*t from anyone, no matter how good the music might be. If it were me I'd make it clear that stuff like that will get a ball bat shoved up his hole...

[toneguru]

I would not get in a pissing contest with this guy or anyone about what or who's boundaries are set.

Generally the best thing to do when a physical threat is sent your way is to smile and lightly laugh as if you have not a worry in the world. Now of course if you are in a dark alley and shit don't seem right I would suggest a back up plan but in most cases a gentle smile is a great way to gain the villains respect. This has worked for me on more than one occasion.

If he scares the crap out of you too much then just decline the gig but if not just take the gig and laugh off his emotional outbursts.

Good Luck.

[jonnathaniel]

I recently did that. At first I didn't realize what the project was going to be ( taking too much time and nerves ), than realized it, than raised my price, suffered for a week than bought a mixer for the money I earned
I probably would not do it again. Well, maybe for good money

[Igotsoul4u]

Originally Posted by ivmike

Raise your price significantly; this way, if he balks, you don't work with him; if he agrees to the higher price, then it might be worth it.

I agree with this. If they work with someone else they will either be happy but most likely they will wish they had some familiarity. People don't like to change and unless the next guy is just way better then you, they will pay a little more for a sure thing.

[25ghosts]

Originally Posted by in the red

i made a record with a band last year who´s main man is a quiet "intensive" guy. it got to the level where it was very personal, bad vibe all the time, the guy even threatened me on the phone!
it really took all my strength to pull through that production, i always thought any other producer/engineer would have pulled the plug.
anyway, musically/sonically it turned out great, i loved the music, i still do!

today i got a call from him asking if i would produce their next record! i really don´t know what to think about that! on one hand i know it will be nerve-wrecking again, even if there won´t be quarrels or something, the guy just talks way too much! on the other hand i love his music and respect his talents!

so i ask myself: is it worth it? should i pass or just tell myself "hey, it´s business!"?

Take it....

You have one big advantage over the last production. You KNOW how that guy ticks and if you paid attention you know where the problems are.

Same goes for him.

So if both of you enter the session with that knowledge it can only get better. It might be a chance for both yous to evolve

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by ivmike

Raise your price significantly; this way, if he balks, you don't work with him; if he agrees to the higher price, then it might be worth it.

Took the words right out of my mouth... double would be about right.

[chrisso]

All I can add is that if I walked away from difficult projects (or in effect did so by doubling my price) I would have very little of worth on my resume.

Physical threats I wont tolerate, but I've had someone threaten to throw my drums out of the window (several stories up) if I didn't play the way they wanted me too.
That album is still loved by many and I often receive compliments on my performance.

[Plush]

No, I would not do the new project. Not from what you wrote about the first one.

The main reason I would take a pass on it is that I could then pursue another first class opportunity with other playas. The second reason I would pass is that money will not cure the bad situation.

The person you are working with is an insect and a toxic individual. You don't have time for him.

[GearBit]

Originally Posted by chrisso

All I can add is that if I walked away from difficult projects (or in effect did so by doubling my price) I would have very little of worth on my resume.

Physical threats I wont tolerate, but I've had someone threaten to throw my drums out of the window (several stories up) if I didn't play the way they wanted me too.

Curious, now that you have the cred, would you take some of the shit that was thrown at you in the past?
I think "difficult people" have been easier for me to take when I was young and hungry but as I have gotten older and developed a rep. I find it less worthwhile. Plus, there really are a lot of amazingly talented "good people" out there to work with.

That album is still loved by many and I often receive compliments on my performance.

LOL.
Cmon spill.
It was a shuffle beat wasn't it?

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by GearBit

Curious, now that you have the cred, would you take some of the shit that was thrown at you in the past?

All the time.
It happens to me regularly. I know other drummers more successful than me deal with crap.

Part of it is about drums which are in one way the most important building block the entire production is built on, but secondly completely subjective to pick apart.
You can have Steve Gadd in their grooving like a mutha and the artist can turn round and say it sucks and the drummer is a dick**ad.
I've worked on lots of difficult projects from the beginning of my career to recent times.
I've felt a complete no one, with zero talent and possessing of no tools to give my collaborator what they want, but I have to say very rarely do I look back and think the music was rubbish and my pain was wasted.
Most often I find I'm proud of what I've achieved and in a little way glad I was put through the mill and pushed out of my comfort zone, however hard it was at the time.

And yes, I've never been very good with shuffles.

[Makinithappen]

Originally Posted by toneguru

For another, he may be coming back to you for the fact that you can take his shit without getting bent. That is a very big thing in this industry. If you can keep your ego out of it and carry on, it is noticed and appreciated by all. They may not utter a word of gratitude to you but it is huge.

Also, over the years the artists that have tested me the most are the ones that have helped me to grow the most. Think of working with testy types as a zen polishing. Be more concerned and aware of how you react (or better yet respond) to his abrasive nature. Be less concerned about his emotional outbursts.

Very good post... I've never thought about it quite like that but I certainly agree....

I can say with certainty that is all the awful, tedious, stressful sessions I have had to endure that have prepared me to be able to walk into a room full of demanding clients and immediately take control.

And as far as the OT goes.... as has been covered... Perhaps bump the rates up a bit so that if things get particularly rough, you have a light at the end to think about