Your friend puts out an album, gives you a copy, and asks your opinion. Honestly?

[lagavulin16]

How do you respond? Assuming you don't think it's one of the best albums you ever heard... I usually start by talking about all the things I like about it and try to leave it there. When pressed for more I try to delicately talk about the points that I think could have maybe been improved. Then all hell usually breaks out.

How do you guys deal with this? What if some elements border on glaring? I think if it's a close friend they deserve my honesty (and wish they'd talked to me before pressing all those copies) whereas if it's a more distant acquaintance I'm more likely to really avoid the negative points.

[joelpatterson]

Don't ever dare to say honestly what you think. That is one lonesome road to walk.

[kafka]

Well, let's talk about how much honesty is happening in this exchange. How much do they really value your opinion? Did they consult with you during the process? Did they ask you for your vision, hoping to incorporate it to the final product? Did they trust you with their ideas before it was complete? Or, did they keep the whole thing out of your sight, and then spring it on you once the entire project was completed? How much of your honesty do they really want?

Look, you may hate the album today, and like it tomorrow. You may be so enamored with your friendship that you're completely blinded by it's flaws, and think it's the greatest thing since Beethoven's 9th. Or, you may harbor a secret lust for you friend's girlfriend, and you just want to run the whole thing down to get with her. Or maybe you're bipolar, and you alternate between the two every other day.

The point is, you don't owe anybody your opinion. You only owe it to people to be honest about factual matters, and there is no fact behind opinion. You can phrase it any way you like, and if they respect you, they'll take your expression as-is. But if they won't, then your honesty is not the thing that is missing from the relationship.

[oscar gamble]

Lie lie lie lie lie lie lie.

thumbsup

[Kris]

"It's great."

[Empty Planet]

The time to ask your friends to give you honest opinions is before it's released. That's not unusual at all. "Please help me identify any flaws I can't see, before it's officially out there and too late to do anything." Friends can be a godsend in that context.



Cheers.

[Nolet]

This is always a though one on multiple levels.

-If a friend doesn’t like it, it doesn’t mean it sucks. Other people might love it.
-If a friend says he loves it, it might mean he really thinks its great.
-If a friend says he loves it, he might have been trying not to hurt your feelings.

[GeorgeHayduke]

I must admit that I try to be as honest as at all possible, but to focus on what CAN be changed. If the guy has a frail tenor, don't say he needs to drink whisky and listen to Tom Waits, he won't get there anyway.

Sometimes people can't take it - their problem. If you're not friends afterwards, you should help them on building their self confidence, and see someone else for the couple of weeks it takes to let it simmer down. They asked for YOUR opinion, and you can only speak for yourself. Tell them that.

I've learned a lot from those of my friends who are honest with me. I really can't use back patting for anything when I ask for critique/another set of ears.

I'm not saying its easy, but you need to be constructively honest

[Glenn Kuras]

I always like to throw it back on the friend.

friend:"Hey man what do you think of this song"
me:"mmmmmmmm seems cool, what do you really think about it? Anything you don't like?"
friend:"I don't know seems cool but could have (fill in blank)
me:"Yea I see that so maybe next time try this (fill in a the blank). But dude over all I think you did a great job and if your proud of it that is really all that matters."

Then again if the friend is just wanting you to stroke his ego then LIE!!

[RockManDan]

When somebody asks my opinion i have to consider a few things. First off is that if they really wanted me to critique and take apart their recording, they would have done so before they sent it off to have a bazillion copies made. Thus, while they may respect my abilities as a mixer/engineer, they really aren't looking for 'the snare could be louder, your guitars are muddy' they are just sharing their accomplishments with me. I, as a musician, want to encourage them and congratulate them on finishing their project.

Also, i know that if they are anything like me, they probably already know about the sonic flaws. I have a problem with endlessly tweaking and adjusting mixes that I 'finished' long ago either because I learn new techniques, get a new toy, or just have the benefit of hindsight. Sometimes getting your music sent off to press is the only way to force yourself to let it go. So if they're anything like me, they most likely already have a list of things they'd change as soon as they listen to it the first time after getting back the master. I dont need to add to that.

I already have a problem of cringing a little bit when I hear a mix I did that has been made permanent that I can't change. I neurotically think about the stuff I would change, and though I would be interested to hear another experienced mixer's opinion, the time right after getting back the copies is NOT the time i want to have any more fuel on that paranoid fire.

Now, if some time has passed. Say they're about to start work on their NEXT album and they ask you how you think their last one sounded, then maybe its time to point out some specifics, becaues they're likely looking to improve in any way they can, and would welcome the criticisms because they've moved past that period. Then its ok to start talking about things youd change, but even then....if I'm not actually working on their project id be hesitant. I would instead of saying negative thigns try to point out positive things that really DO work, and leave them to deduce that what you didn't mention could be better.

Its not about lying. Its about encouraging your friends when they need encouragement. Right after you finish an album and get it pressed is a neurotic time for the best of us, and sometimes since we know we can't change it, we just need someone to say 'dude relax. it sounds great. let it go' and move on.

If you want an example of brutal honesty all the time, watch the show 'House' and you'll see a man who yes is honest, but utterly fails at anything resembling a normal relationship with friends and coworkers.
-Dan

[ivmike]

I don't make it a habit of destroying my friends' dreams with my opinions. After all, I am not the all-knowing arbiter of good taste, so I might absolutely hate someone's recording, but twenty other people might love it.

I try to find some positives in the recording ("Hey, great guitar sound", "I love that studio", "Your engineer is great", etc...).

[DontLetMeDrown]

Well, if the CD is already printed and done, you're going to be a downer if you give a brutally honest review. Tell him which songs are your favorite and leave it at that.

[GGreen]

Depends what he is asking for.

Ask an 'engineer' type or a 'producer' type what they think of X and they often interpret this as an opportunity to analyze the wheres and whats of the technical aspects of the recording IE bass is to quiet or you need less reverb etc.

All I ever want to know when I ask friends is this ...

'Do you like it or not' I don't want to know what THEY would have done because everyone would do it differently. All I wanna know is a yes or no and id rather someone HATED something than felt ambivalent towards it.

Theres nothing worse than that hateful middle ground.

Like or dont like there is no 'ok' (to paraphrase and edit Yoda)

This is the problem with asking technical types they always go for the technical answer when in fact what most people want is a simple affirmation or otherwise that they are at least heading in the right direction.

And to be quiet honest ...... be honest there's nothing worse than hearing some crock of shit from a friend whose afraid to honest.

Don't wanna know the truth? Don't ask in the first place. Simple really.

I am always truthful when asked and me not liking something means nothing more than I dont like it , doesn't make it 'bad' or 'crap'.

'imho'

Cheers

Gareth

[GeorgeHayduke]

Originally Posted by RockManDan

When somebody asks my opinion i have to consider a few things. ...
-Dan

True, I'm perhaps not actually that honest when its a done deal - then its best to just focus on the positive things.

[chris319]

I recently did a project which had nothing to do with music or audio. I wanted some friends to critique it and I told them "I want to know what's wrong with it. You're not doing me any favors by trying to spare my feelings and not telling me what you think is wrong with it."

[Synonym Music]

Originally Posted by ivmike

I don't make it a habit of destroying my friends' dreams with my opinions. After all, I am not the all-knowing arbiter of good taste, so I might absolutely hate someone's recording, but twenty other people might love it.

But people who ask for criticism should know that already. They should know how to filter. If not, that's how their dreams are getting destroyed.

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by Dave Reid

Does my bum look too big in this ?

I was about to say, try being real honest with your gf, see how that pans out. Same with your friend. Just be nice about it really. Say it's not your cup of tea but no doubt that other people would love this music.

[Bubbakron]

Originally Posted by chris319

I recently did a project which had nothing to do with music or audio. I wanted some friends to critique it and I told them "I want to know what's wrong with it. You're not doing me any favors by trying to spare my feelings and not telling me what you think is wrong with it."

what did they say?

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by chris319

I recently did a project which had nothing to do with music or audio. I wanted some friends to critique it and I told them "I want to know what's wrong with it. You're not doing me any favors by trying to spare my feelings and not telling me what you think is wrong with it."

That's fine when the material's at the pre-mix stage. Narcoman will attest I have the harshest critic in the world to bounce stuff off! I'd totally want constructive criticism then.

However, if he's holding the mastered, pressed record in his grubby fist and you tell him it's a bit thin sounding and you think there's some seriously out of tune moments, but his voice is quite nice, he's going to get disheartened. So just pick up on the positive elements and leave the negative elements alone.

[Trancetones]

I recently gave my new album to a friend who said it was a lot better than the last shitty band I was in...WIN!...maybe?

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Trancetones

I recently gave my new album to a friend who said it was a lot better than the last shitty band I was in...WIN!...maybe?

Today I explained the term "damning with faint praise" to my dutch friend.....

I'm sure it's great...either that, or your friend is a master at flattery without actually lying!

[joelpatterson]

And "fainting from damn praise"... that must happen?

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by lagavulin16

How do you respond? Assuming you don't think it's one of the best albums you ever heard... I usually start by talking about all the things I like about it and try to leave it there. When pressed for more I try to delicately talk about the points that I think could have maybe been improved. Then all hell usually breaks out.

How do you guys deal with this? What if some elements border on glaring? I think if it's a close friend they deserve my honesty (and wish they'd talked to me before pressing all those copies) whereas if it's a more distant acquaintance I'm more likely to really avoid the negative points.

I tell him it sucks if it sucks.

why give him a false sense of security?

[chrisdee]

Friends with big egos probably think they are better than what they really are. I would tell the truth in a mild way. If the friend can't take it I guess the friendship isn't that strong.

[Teddy Ray]

being nice/"PC" when you are evaluating someone does noone any favors.

does the evaluat-ee no favors because he gets false impressions.

does you no favors because you will keep getting stuff that sucks to give your opinion on.

need to let them know EXACTLY where you stand. leave no doubt!

[RockManDan]

the problem with this playing hardball attitude is that it presumes that there is a gold standard sliding scale on which all releases are to be measured, with 'crap' on one end and 'perfect' on the other. There isn't. Look at all the differing opinions around here on all sorts of things. Les Paul vs Strat. Pearl vs DW. Analog vs Digital. Cubase vs PT. As much as we are all slutz at heart, this music thing is not an exact science.

I don't know about you guys, but I don't have teh luxury (or curse?) of only having friends with the exact same tastes that I do. I have friends in bands who write music that I would never write, and who probably hate the stuff I write if suggested it during one of their sessions. But we're still friends, and we recognize that we're all different with different tastes. Now this all assumes we're talking about taste questions, not technical things. If my friends put out a jazz record and im not into jazz, Im not going to say 'it sucks' because I dont like jazz. Im going to say positive things like 'you guys played well' or 'the mixer did a good job' (if in fact he did). No one wants to be around the person who is always throwing around opinions as to why everything thats not what he does sucks.

Now if we're talking about technical stuff like mix balance or is it too loud? or too much verb? too dry? that kind of stuff its ok to be honest about, but i stand by my earlier point. If they didnt ask you before they sent it off or while they were working on the project, then they aren't really that interested in your honest opinion. Which isnt necessarily a bad thing. I have friends that i doubt would hire me to produce/engineer/play on their record because they feel that my styles dont mesh with theirs exactly, and thats fine, because I have my preferences and they have theirs, but we can still be good friends and respect each other's talent and vision.

The inadequacies of the english language make it inherently difficult to speak opinionatedly about something without sounding like you are making an objective judgement of its value. Unless the person has specifically asked for my opinion about said product, Im going to avoid spewing out all kinds of know-it-all criticisms because often they really just want to share their art with others, and I want to encourage them. Now if we're REALLY good friends and I think they can do better, i might say 'you know i think you can do better, and Id like to help' so that they know i have their interests at heart, not just wanting to hear myself talk smart.

Its one of those things where everyone is an armchair producer, film critic, child psychologist, political expert, expert on everything. We all want to throw in our 2 cents to sound smart. THis is america (for most of us, but the principle still stands for people in general). we should be embracing differences in taste and process when it comes to art. Not saying there are no absolutes (i believe there are. heck, im a christian and a political conservative!) but in life i really think we as people need to make distinctions between what things we should stand our ground on and what things are just opinion and preference. It is the ultimate arrogance of man to blur those lines and assume that everything WE like is inherently better.

ok im rambling. i guess you have to ask yourself. what is more important? the friendship and demonstrating that you are in their corner? or making sure that everyone knows that YOU are mixer-god and you could have done better? i choose the former. people are more important that fidelity.
-dan

[jeremy.c.]

Originally Posted by RockManDan

the problem with this playing hardball attitude is that it presumes that there is a gold standard sliding scale on which all releases are to be measured, with 'crap' on one end and 'perfect' on the other. There isn't. Look at all the differing opinions around here on all sorts of things. Les Paul vs Strat. Pearl vs DW. Analog vs Digital. Cubase vs PT. As much as we are all slutz at heart, this music thing is not an exact science.

Agreed.
The brutal honesty thing doesn't hold much weight for me either because it assumes the reviewer has a special knowledge and it is some arbiter of taste. I have a friend who is horrible with pitch and has no sense of timing, but he still has a lot of fans of his music and live shows. I am as honest to a point as I believe it is actually helpful and not discouraging. If I think a friend is capable of improving based on my suggestions I will offer them, otherwise I try to be supportive of my friends. If you had played me Nirvana's Bleach album before they blew up I would never have guessed anyone would get into that "subpar" playing... shows what I know!

[The Beatsmith]

it depends if you're the right audience or not

no point in asking me if my buddy asks me if i like some euro trance he's just made - i'm not going to. if i'm not the intended audience, then i'll tell them that i'm not really into <whatever>, even if it's a sub genre of a genre (mm, nice use of language there)

if i am the target audience, then i'll generally be honest.

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by jeremy.c.

If you had played me Nirvana's Bleach album before they blew up I would never have guessed anyone would get into that "subpar" playing... shows what I know!

That's why you're not an A&R

[jeremy.c.]

Originally Posted by Chris Lago

That's why you're not an A&R

That, and I have a soul...


SNAP!