Your friend puts out an album, gives you a copy, and asks your opinion. Honestly?

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Don't ever dare to say honestly what you think. That is one lonesome road to walk.

a maxim for a healthy career. Careful with your "honesty axe".... eugene.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

And "fainting from damn praise"... that must happen?

yes. I could do it if you like..... but you'll need to be in an area of soft furnishings.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

being nice/"PC" when you are evaluating someone does noone any favors.

does the evaluat-ee no favors because he gets false impressions.

does you no favors because you will keep getting stuff that sucks to give your opinion on.

need to let them know EXACTLY where you stand. leave no doubt!

Like I said, I agree if the material is in any way unfinished.

If a FRIEND asks you for your opinion on a finished product, you're not a real friend if you slate it (even if it's terrible). A FRIEND supports their friends even when they're wrong (assuming no-one's going to die from the consequences etc!) and makes them feel better, not worse about something.

If what they've done really does sound awful, find something to praise then offer to give your opinions earlier in the process next time.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by RockManDan

ok im rambling. i guess you have to ask yourself. what is more important? the friendship and demonstrating that you are in their corner? or making sure that everyone knows that YOU are mixer-god and you could have done better? i choose the former. people are more important that fidelity.
-dan

If you rambled dan, you grabbed it back with the last sentence.

If I wanted a constructive destruction of my work, I'd ask a peer.

If I wanted reassurance and support, I'd ask a friend.

[chris319]

Hmmm, I thought I'd posted a reply to this.

Unlike a finished recording, my project is a work in progress, so the cement is still wet. They were very helpful and gave suggestions, many of which will be incorporated into the project. Again, if there's something wrong that I'm not seeing, I want to know about it. The trick is in knowing whose input has validity and whose input is a little misguided if well meant. IMO a real friend is going to call it as he sees it and is not going to tell you something's OK when it isn't. You may not agree with your friend, in which case you simply agree to disagree.

[Happy Musicfan]

Only give a precise, objective, technical critique if the creator specifically asks for it. Otherwise, emphasize the relative positives, relative uniqueness, realtive energy, etc.

[haymedic]

you could tell him it's good and then go on the internet and make fun of it with all your computer buddies.

s

[Teddy Ray]

[QUOTE=psycho_monkey;5197618 A FRIEND supports their friends even when they're wrong .[/QUOTE]


dont agree with you there. in my opinion a friend is much more than a mindless "yes man" piling on the applause and praise.,,if someone tells me a track is good when in their mind it sucks...they arent doing me a favor...as a matter of fact, it isnt a very friendly thing to do.

if something of mine sucks I want to hear it. unedited.

a friend does not support even when the other person is wrong. a *real* friend kicks ass and drags him kicking and screaming into the light. if one wants yes men...strangers are very good at that. friends are there for truthfulness.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

dont agree with you there. in my opinion a friend is much more than a mindless "yes man" piling on the applause and praise.,,if someone tells me a track is good when in their mind it sucks...they arent doing me a favor...as a matter of fact, it isnt a very friendly thing to do.

if something of mine sucks I want to hear it. unedited.

a friend does not support even when the other person is wrong. a *real* friend kicks ass and drags him kicking and screaming into the light. if one wants yes men...strangers are very good at that. friends are there for truthfulness.

I agree with you up to a point. But you have to take this in context. If my friend is going to do something seriously wrong, or even make a poor choice, it's your duty to help and advise them. If they don't listen to your advice, make that mistake and suffer from it, a true friend would help them not say "I told you so". Nothing is more irritating than someone who is so intent on wanting the best for you they won't let you do your own thing, regardless of whether you're making a mistake.

Now, if that same friend came to you with a premix copy of their album and asked for your opinion, I'd say go with it and offer as much constructive criticism as you like. That is your duty as a friend.

If on the other hand, as here it's a finished product, what is you being honest going to achieve? if it is really bad, all you'll do is upset your friend - they can't change it now, they could end up hating their endeavours, and overall will feel worse about something they were previously happy with. That's not friendly behaviour to me - that's called being a bit of a b@stard.

A friend would praise the good things, not mention the bad, and (if possible) offer to help pre-final project next time.

So if you read my post properly, I'm a long way from suggesting being a yes man - merely using tact and sensitivity. In an ideal world we could just be truthful, but whilst you may have a thick skin (I think that's obvious from your .sig) most artists don't, and most people don't want to upset their friends.

[Sqye]

.

i usually ask them which of my many personalities they'd like a response from


just don't ask my wife. she's german, and WILL give her honest opinion! she doesn't give a fukk.

sorry for the stereotype - but it's one of the things i actually LOVE about many germans - none of this 'kiss-kiss, you look mahvaliss' bullshit.

.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

what is you being honest going to achieve? if it is really bad, all you'll do is upset your friend

well, hopefully it will cause growth and caution in future endeavors.

I like the direct approach. there is no room for interpretation, it is all out there.


feeling bad(or ashamed ) about a project isn't necessarily a bad thing. there is always room for improvement.

[RockManDan]

id like to reiterate my earlier point that everyone here seems to be assuming that there is a cut and dry version of 'good' vs 'bad' when it comes to music. Sure something are pretty much universally considered great and others bad, but a lot of stuff lies in the middle. Therefore, in 90% of situations, just taking the 'truth at all costs' approach is most likely not appropriate because the issue at hand isnt a cut and dry topic. especially with mixing. like i said, i dont have the luxury of having only friends with the same tastes as I. so me mouthing off and saying 'thats wrong' just makes me look like an ass.

i think there will most likely be a direct correlation between people here espousing the 'always be right and be direct' approach and those who have either a) never been married or b) never had to work at a job with other human beings or c) have some sort of God-complex.

so go ahead. be upfront with people's faults all the time. im sure youll have many wonderful relationships, being happy in the knowledge that people know you're GOOD AT MIXING, all other priorities in life be damned.
-dan

[25ghosts]

Originally Posted by lagavulin16

How do you respond? Assuming you don't think it's one of the best albums you ever heard... I usually start by talking about all the things I like about it and try to leave it there. When pressed for more I try to delicately talk about the points that I think could have maybe been improved. Then all hell usually breaks out.

How do you guys deal with this? What if some elements border on glaring? I think if it's a close friend they deserve my honesty (and wish they'd talked to me before pressing all those copies) whereas if it's a more distant acquaintance I'm more likely to really avoid the negative points.

I am always telling the MY truth. That means that I say exactly what I feel. Even though that means that I am hurting someone's feelings. However, what may seem harsh in the beginning will give you respect in the long run. Because your friends will come to love your opinion because they KNOW that you tell the truth. The truth or better yet your truth is of course subjective and not reflecting everyones opinion.

Besides, if your friendship goes back a long time your friend already knows how you react to something that you really like and dont really like. He is going to know and that immediately if your are trying to BS him.

So, spill the beans and be honest choosing objective words. He might get mad with you the first day or two but your friendship (if it ever was one or worth maintaining) will grow from there.

[chris319]

If I'm to maintain our friendship and I hear something I don't like or think could be better, I'm going to find a tactful way to tell him. Frame things in positive terms: "I think it would sound better if you tried this." Your friend may know there's something amiss and is simply looking for confirmation, or he may disagree and think his way is better. At the end of the day you're still friends.

I had to do this just yesterday with a performer who is a professional through and through. I told him what I was looking for and he was receptive, but gave me some feedback on my ideas and I agreed with him. It was a back-and-forth process.

[RockManDan]

yes but that was a work in progress and you were collaborating. way different than the situation we're talking about.

[Synonym Music]

Originally Posted by RockManDan

yes but that was a work in progress and you were collaborating. way different than the situation we're talking about.

But if you have to explain to someone that views are relative, they're not ready for criticism. Come prepared or don't come at all. I mean if you're looking for an automatic pat on the back.. Wow.

Still, the results are subjective. The effort is not. At very least, I do respect the hard work (hopefully) that goes into an album. I'm not the one to ask about songs anyway. I'm far more concerned that people are satisfied with what they've done. Have they tried? Has it made a difference?

Seeking nothing but approval is also a very lonely road, you know...

[Storyville]

Here's a thought.

As soon as they bring it up say "I listen to hours of music everyday. It's like a constant parade going through my head. So know that if I'm going to spend an hour listening to your album and it isn't good, I'm going to ream you a new asshole"

Then, you can give your honest opinion and compared to how you started off everything will sound kind hearted!

...My girlfriend is asleep, and yet somehow digging her nails into my leg.... so unpleasant... do I have the heart to wake her?

Anyway, the other option is - as soon as they ask - hit them.

[RockManDan]

Originally Posted by Synonym Music

But if you have to explain to someone that views are relative, they're not ready for criticism. Come prepared or don't come at all. I mean if you're looking for an automatic pat on the back.. Wow.

well this I agree with, but we're musicians, and as a whole this group isn't known for always being logical and rational. People take things personally all the time. If we were to take the logical, realistic approach, probably none of us would be in this business because on paper, it has little to no chance of financial return, crappy benefits, and extremely low job security. Romance and Passion are what keep us going, so when you have an entire industry predicated on those pillars, a little bit of thin skin and lack of objectivity is kinda par for the course.

Im not saying its right, and certainly when I ask for opinions i always prefer constructive specific analysis of both good and bad. Im just saying that there are all personality types in the musical world. If everyone was logical objective engineer, we'd be out of a job.

I guess it all depends on if they're asking me as a friend, a fellow musician, or an engineer. 3 very differnt hats.

[Synonym Music]

Originally Posted by RockManDan

well this I agree with, but we're musicians, and as a whole this group isn't known for always being logical and rational. People take things personally all the time. If we were to take the logical, realistic approach, probably none of us would be in this business because on paper, it has little to no chance of financial return, crappy benefits, and extremely low job security. Romance and Passion are what keep us going, so when you have an entire industry predicated on those pillars, a little bit of thin skin and lack of objectivity is kinda par for the course.

Im not saying its right, and certainly when I ask for opinions i always prefer constructive specific analysis of both good and bad. Im just saying that there are all personality types in the musical world. If everyone was logical objective engineer, we'd be out of a job.

I guess it all depends on if they're asking me as a friend, a fellow musician, or an engineer. 3 very differnt hats.

I only buy all that if it gets you good results. If it doesn't, you look like a jackass.

I can bear any brunt of criticism because I know what's useful and what's hogwash. I can step back. I can look at what I've done. It's not that difficult - because my insecurities about my work only seep in when I'm not truly satisfied with it. That's why I'm more concerned with others' satisfaction in their work.

You have a responsibility to listen if you ask for input. Use it, don't use it, doesn't matter. But it's not all about you, or the song, or how you created it. You asked. Own up to it.

[RockManDan]

I totally agree with that. I think that those of us who really consider ourselves driven artists are always about finding ways to improve and are craving to hear what things about our music work for people and what things fall flat.

But we are not like most poeple, which is what I believe the OP was getting at. We all know people who despite being our friends, may not be the most objective or experienced in the industry, and thus might not be in the mood for complete and brutal honesty. Yes they will need to wake up at some point, but growth and learning is a process, not a switch.

[bossman]

This is a tricky subject. I like honesty in people and tend to surround myself with a couple of trusty folks that I know are not "yes" people. Because they are great musicians/writers/producers, I listen to their advice and criticism. Sometimes I don't agree and sometimes I do, but I always respect the honesty because when they say they think it's good, I KNOW they mean it.

In terms of friends and family, I am trying to put an end to this practice. It's just too difficult to get an impartial opinion from them. For example, I gave my latest release a good friend and was flipping out about how much he loved it. However, I just can't be excited by that because he's a good friend that I know wouldn't be able to say "I don't like it."

The most annoying thing, even worse than hearing negative feedback, is no feedback at all. I've sent my tunes to a couple of friends and family members and they don't even find it necessary to respond! Now that pisses me off to no end!

In response to the OP, I say always be honest when you can be, but don't offer technical advice when you're not asked for it. Also, it really depends on what kind of personality your friend has. I know people that would never speak to me again if I dared to criticize them.

[therealbigd]

there's no point telling them what you think, they'll only blindly argue their case until you can't be bothered anymore.

'the guitar sounds rubbish' 'no it doesn't' 'no... it really, actually does' 'it so doesn't! we spent £2000 on that record' 'so?' 'so, it must be awesome'

[AwwDeOhh]

Originally Posted by haymedic

you could tell him it's good and then go on the internet and make fun of it with all your computer buddies.

s

lol

Touche!

[monads]

What’s funny is I did just what the subject matter of this thread is about! LOL I didn’t press them for feedback. I set up the website with a blog requesting feedback on the album, what they liked and didn’t. It’s not going to offend me, the CD is pressed. Tell me the truth. I know they’re not going to like every song, but if you do like some stuff give me some reviews on iTunes/CD Baby, etc.

You also need to be aware of your target audience like Beatsmith mentioned. If I’m making a pure ‘Rock’ album, I’m not going to give a copy to my rap buddy and ask him for feedback. He’s probably not going to like or listen to it.

To Isotopesnyc, I feel you on giving CDs out to friends/family and getting no feedback. I had a small local get together at a friend’s house (free food, alcohol, snacks, etc.) for about 30 peeps. EVERYONE got a CD. I’ve gotten like 3 feedbacks!? I guess they didn’t like the album? Tell me on my blog then, or call me up. I don’t think a review is too much to ask after I just fed your swanky ass, made cocktails for ya, drank my beer, and took a bottle of water for the ride home. Don’t think I’ll have another one of these

[toneguru]

Point out the positive stuff...

Wow, you did all that on a budget of only $40k?

I love the name of the band.

Cool CD art... really cool.

Wow, the corners on the CD are really sharp.

Wow, the shrinkwrap fits so tightly over the CD case.

Wow, you did all that on a budget of only $40k?

[ddageek]

YOU LIE ! and Then YOU LIE SOME MORE!

Of course if I ever told you your stuff was great I was telling the truth, see I only suggest lying to others!

SEE ITS THAT EASY!