Famous producer writes back: read his reply

[BlakeJohnsonCSR]

So I recently wrote a very well known producer/mixing engineer seeking advice on how to make more $ as an aspiring producer myself (myspace.com/blake311johnson) shameless plug...anyways here is what I wrote below and his response...I was shocked he wrote back and am anxious to hear your repsonses to it!!

I'm a friend of Andy *****(Insert band name) I was wondering if you could offer any advice to me being an aspiring mixing engineer and producer. I'm 23 & graduated UCF with a degree in business management 08' and quickly after purchased my own ProTools HD3 rig and some nice pres (wunder, api, neve) and converters to accompany the setup. I'm quickly learning that it is very difficult making money off of local musicians. How did you attract national acts and labels in the beginning? How did you make a NAME for yourself? I have the know how and the ear, great gear but feel like this life might be compared to waiting to cash in on the lottery. If you have a moment my website is myspace.com/blake311johnson
I would be really appreciate any insight or wisdom you could pass along.

Thanks





Hi Blake,

Here's some truth & advice from a guy with 40 years in the 'business' & over 300 MILLION records sold: In a word... DON'T! When I learned, musicians HAD to know how to play their instrument, singers HAD to know how to sing in tune, engineers HAD to know how to record & mix, producers HAD to know music and have at least a modicum of people skills. The computer (and Pro FOOLS in particular) have been a MAJOR force in the demise of the entire music business because NO ONE has to know how to do ANYTHING, because they can be tuned, timed, cut, pasted, slipped, quantized, etc., etc., ad nauseum. People on the production/engineering/mixing side especially LOOK at music instead of LISTENING to it these days. Engineers & mixers learn from Mac Manuals, & producers by stealing (excuse me... "sampling") other peoples work, usually from music 2 or 3 decades preceding them (when people KNEW how to record & mix)!

Engineers (& producers right behind them) will be totally automated OUT OF WORK (not unlike the automobile industry, the printing press, telephone companies, human operators for businesses, etc., etc., etc.) within a very few years. In fact, at the next AES show, the first TOTALLY automated recording & mixing software will be launched and, like a virus, will spread faster than AIDS throughout the entire music community! This is the inevitable answer to the current result of NO MONEY in the business part of music business!

You think it is hard to make money off of 'local musicians'... it is truly NOT much different in the 'big time'. Because of the simple truth that people do not PAY for music anymore, those few artists that do sell have 100 times the number of PROFESSIONAL engineers and producers fighting for the job! FACT: Only 1% of ALL music downloaded is PAID FOR! What??? Only 1% of ALL music downloaded is PAID FOR! There are only 4 Major Labels LEFT in the entire world. In the last 3.5 years over 60% of ALL the recording studios, record (cd's) stores, and the numerous ancillary support businesses on the ENTIRE PLANET are OUT of business. In 2 years or so the only cd's you will see will be blanks in Staples!

Don't get me wrong, MUSIC is not going away... only the ability to make a living off of it has, unless you become an amazing writer and/or get in a world class band and live on the road. Publishing, live performance and merch are just about all that is left and will remain so for years to come.

If you would like to maybe think of having a home, a family, 2.2 cars, 2.2 kids and a reasonably life then RUN, do not walk... away from ANY thought of becoming an engineer or producer in the music business. It is crumbling right under our feet!

I would STRONGLY suggest that you use your business management degree in a business that people will NEVER be able to download for free, i.e. food, death (undertaking) water, clothing, energy, health care, military industrial complex, etc. You get the point? You MUST choose a business that can NOT be converted to zeros & ones EVER!!!! If it can be put on the internet it will NEVER be able to be protected & if it CAN be stolen (like music, film, and ALL information both personal & private) It is the ONLY sure way to INsure an income.

I have assistants that I have worked with for 6 years and are in my experience the fastest Pro Fools operators on the planet who also know how to record, align tape recorders, etc., etc. that I can not afford to hire anymore because of the decline in budgets. People do not want to pay 1971 prices for studio time!! It is BEYOND 'tuff' out here to find a place to learn. I am sorry for that, but it is not my fault that people prefer to steal rather than pay for music.

Hope this Helps!

P.S. Sell that Pro Fools rig a.s.a.p. They will be instantly obsolete by 2012 (& totally unsupported by three years later) as Digi Design is abandoning the ENTIRE software AND hardware currently in use for their 'next generation' rig.

[antoniosolo]

You're in the ARMY now...drop and give me 40db maggot....lol

Now is the time to use some business acumen, hope everyone has got some, along with Neves of course.

[Waltz Mastering]

Sounds like one part truth, mixed with one part bitterness.

[dbbubba]

Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering

Sounds like one part truth, mixed with one part bitterness.

Who says that you can't be bitter about the truth?

[drp audio]

I'm thinking he'd be a little less bitter if everyone pirated Pro Tools.

I can't argue with him about pirating, closed down a related biz myself a few years ago.

[MikeyMike]

Originally Posted by BlakeJohnsonCSR

So I recently wrote a very well known producer/mixing engineer seeking advice on how to make more $ as an aspiring producer myself (myspace.com/blake311johnson) shameless plug...anyways here is what I wrote below and his response...I was shocked he wrote back and am anxious to hear your repsonses to it!!

I'm a friend of Andy *****(Insert band name) I was wondering if you could offer any advice to me being an aspiring mixing engineer and producer. I'm 23 & graduated UCF with a degree in business management 08' and quickly after purchased my own ProTools HD3 rig and some nice pres (wunder, api, neve) and converters to accompany the setup. I'm quickly learning that it is very difficult making money off of local musicians. How did you attract national acts and labels in the beginning? How did you make a NAME for yourself? I have the know how and the ear, great gear but feel like this life might be compared to waiting to cash in on the lottery. If you have a moment my website is myspace.com/blake311johnson
I would be really appreciate any insight or wisdom you could pass along.

Thanks





Hi Blake,

Here's some truth & advice from a guy with 40 years in the 'business' & over 300 MILLION records sold: In a word... DON'T! When I learned, musicians HAD to know how to play their instrument, singers HAD to know how to sing in tune, engineers HAD to know how to record & mix, producers HAD to know music and have at least a modicum of people skills. The computer (and Pro FOOLS in particular) have been a MAJOR force in the demise of the entire music business because NO ONE has to know how to do ANYTHING, because they can be tuned, timed, cut, pasted, slipped, quantized, etc., etc., ad nauseum. People on the production/engineering/mixing side especially LOOK at music instead of LISTENING to it these days. Engineers & mixers learn from Mac Manuals, & producers by stealing (excuse me... "sampling") other peoples work, usually from music 2 or 3 decades preceding them (when people KNEW how to record & mix)!

Engineers (& producers right behind them) will be totally automated OUT OF WORK (not unlike the automobile industry, the printing press, telephone companies, human operators for businesses, etc., etc., etc.) within a very few years. In fact, at the next AES show, the first TOTALLY automated recording & mixing software will be launched and, like a virus, will spread faster than AIDS throughout the entire music community! This is the inevitable answer to the current result of NO MONEY in the business part of music business!

You think it is hard to make money off of 'local musicians'... it is truly NOT much different in the 'big time'. Because of the simple truth that people do not PAY for music anymore, those few artists that do sell have 100 times the number of PROFESSIONAL engineers and producers fighting for the job! FACT: Only 1% of ALL music downloaded is PAID FOR! What??? Only 1% of ALL music downloaded is PAID FOR! There are only 4 Major Labels LEFT in the entire world. In the last 3.5 years over 60% of ALL the recording studios, record (cd's) stores, and the numerous ancillary support businesses on the ENTIRE PLANET are OUT of business. In 2 years or so the only cd's you will see will be blanks in Staples!

Don't get me wrong, MUSIC is not going away... only the ability to make a living off of it has, unless you become an amazing writer and/or get in a world class band and live on the road. Publishing, live performance and merch are just about all that is left and will remain so for years to come.

If you would like to maybe think of having a home, a family, 2.2 cars, 2.2 kids and a reasonably life then RUN, do not walk... away from ANY thought of becoming an engineer or producer in the music business. It is crumbling right under our feet!

I would STRONGLY suggest that you use your business management degree in a business that people will NEVER be able to download for free, i.e. food, death (undertaking) water, clothing, energy, health care, military industrial complex, etc. You get the point? You MUST choose a business that can NOT be converted to zeros & ones EVER!!!! If it can be put on the internet it will NEVER be able to be protected & if it CAN be stolen (like music, film, and ALL information both personal & private) It is the ONLY sure way to INsure an income.

I have assistants that I have worked with for 6 years and are in my experience the fastest Pro Fools operators on the planet who also know how to record, align tape recorders, etc., etc. that I can not afford to hire anymore because of the decline in budgets. People do not want to pay 1971 prices for studio time!! It is BEYOND 'tuff' out here to find a place to learn. I am sorry for that, but it is not my fault that people prefer to steal rather than pay for music.

Hope this Helps!

P.S. Sell that Pro Fools rig a.s.a.p. They will be instantly obsolete by 2012 (& totally unsupported by three years later) as Digi Design is abandoning the ENTIRE software AND hardware currently in use for their 'next generation' rig.

If you become great at engineering and adjust your prices accordingly, you can vary well be in the game. The most respected and appreciated engineers are the ones who really know music and how to create great music. Many engineers these days have become just like the "beetmaker" producers. Just grab anything and work with it. A great engineer does everything from replaying instruments to help producing individual recordings. Not just sit on their ass and eq this and compress that like many today do. Many want you to track out and arrange everything from your home setup and then send the files to them. WTF? This is about the dumbest s**t I ever heard in my life. How is the engineer supposed to know what to do with your tracks and you're not there? Tracking is the most important part of the entire recording process and they want somebody else to do it besides them but still want the big bucks. If you avoid the internet, you'll be fine. There is nothing like engineering music you like for a living and it can be done giving that the price is right. Just establish the right business relationships and you'll be okay. If you're doing music for the money, you already failed before you began.

[rack gear]

youch...so much for piracy being a victimless crime...

[robertshaw]

"profools" didn't someone from GS some up with that name? was it fletch? I remember reading that numerous times on PT bashing threads

what howl. so what does this guy recommend you buy a soundblaster? waaaaaaaa


PTHD does the job well. Music will always be made you just have to have realistic expectations. I know plenty of people who make good money recording just demos and indy stuff. I'm a hack accountant since it was my minor in college back in the day. So I've been doing a lot of returns the last month or so for friends. One of my buds made over 80k last year out of his barn studio. Decent setup. Radar & 2in tape some good outboard but nothing major. He gets all his biz word of mouth. 40 an hour adds up quick for him. Believe me he is well respected in the area but hardly goes out of his way to attract biz.

It is a very tough biz but don't let someone say you can't do something. No matter who they are or how much success they have ..... For me? the only thing I say can't be done is make a good sounding record on a soundblaster. Everything else can and will be done!!!

go for it w/ hard work and persistence anything is possible. You have the degree in biz so you have a solid background just keep at it. At least you have good gear and talent as a start.

[Watersound]

I hate to say it, but he's right. Making money with music in the future will be as challenging as making money paining art. There was a time centuries ago when you could hit it big as a painter. Making music will be left to those who are willing to bleed for it, and that is a good thing actually. Maybe music will be good again...

[AaronBerman]

Originally Posted by BlakeJohnsonCSR

In fact, at the next AES show, the first TOTALLY automated recording & mixing software will be launched and, like a virus, will spread faster than AIDS throughout the entire music community!

Anyone know what he is talking about here?!?!?

[TS-12]

Originally Posted by Watersound

I hate to say it, but he's right. Making money with music in the future will be as challenging as making money paining art. There was a time centuries ago when you could hit it big as a painter. Making music will be left to those who are willing to bleed for it, and that is a good thing actually. Maybe music will be good again...

I was thinking about art and painting when i was reading that first post in this thread... it's gonna happen to music and film... but, I heard sometime ago from a good active band, that virtually the only money they make are from concerts, not selling cds. Maybe music recording/production will die, but not live performance.

[The MPCist]

[QUOTE=AaronBerman;5101172]

Originally Posted by BlakeJohnsonCSR

In fact, at the next AES show, the first TOTALLY automated recording & mixing software will be launched and, like a virus, will spread faster than AIDS throughout the entire music community!

Anyone know what he is talking about here?!?!?

Hmmm... maybe he's talking about the 'plug n play' plugins from Waves (Maserati/Lord Alge/Kramer)....?

[FireMoon]

Originally Posted by AaronBerman

Anyone know what he is talking about here?!?!?

I believe, it might be a reference to some software that is being developed for, initially, the PS3.

[uncle duncan]

There is still a market for vanity projects - people with money who fancy themselves as songwriters or singers. In defense of their egos, they don't want to go to some dude's bedroom to record their crappy music, they want to go to a real studio. Of course, this is many notches below the level of the producer in the first post, but for the time being, the $30 and $40 per hour studios can still get work if their prestige level is high enough.

Another aspect of the local market is the fact that fans still buy CD's at live shows - or at least fans older than 30. That's bound to change as their preference moves from CD's to downloads, but there are still people (over 30) who believe in supporting the arts. I'm just glad I'm not a young'un coming up right now, because the future does appear to be as bleak as the Pro Fools producer says it is.

[strauss]

Originally Posted by TS-12

I was thinking about art and painting when i was reading that first post in this thread... it's gonna happen to music and film... but, I heard sometime ago from a good active band, that virtually the only money they make are from concerts, not selling cds. Maybe music recording/production will die, but not live performance.

Lots of artist are loosing money from touring.
There's traveling costs, costs of a FOH engineer, monitor mixer, tour-manager, light man, musicians, etc, etc,

[cavern]

good..im glad..
if you can only make money playing live in the future, then self proclaimed musicians will have to learn how to play their instrument again. ha!! full circle. he he ha ha ha .

[Dean Roddey]

Originally Posted by cavern

good..im glad..
if you can only make money playing live in the future, then self proclaimed musicians will have to learn how to play their instrument again. ha!! full circle. he he ha ha ha .

The problem with that position is that far fewer people will want to be involved in anything other than a hobbyist level. Also, what kind of music makes the most money playing around your home town? It's usually probably not challenging and innovative original tunes. Who givse a crap if people get really good at playing cover tunes? I'd rather have the guy in the bedroom with a computer who has a reasonable chance at making a living from actually selling the music he makes (and therefore can reach a viable market that can support him.) When all you have is people in pubs in your area, that's much different from having the ability to sell music to the (possibly very widely spread) people who like your particular type of music around the world.

So it's hardly going to be good for music, IMO. It won't foster innovation, and it will significantly discourage people from getting into the business, because there won't be any business.

[drp audio]

Soon waiters, waitresses, and bartenders will be saying, "Don't forget to tip your artists ..."

[strauss]

Originally Posted by cavern

good..im glad..
if you can only make money playing live in the future, then self proclaimed musicians will have to learn how to play their instrument again. ha!! full circle. he he ha ha ha .

You can fake a lot on stage

[carllock]

I have to agree and disagree.

I made the shift from music only about 10 years ago. I started a thread a few days ago about getting some of my (missing/lost) old Gold and Platinum plaques replaced because they are now of value because NOBODY is selling crap right now. When I was really active on the music side during the late 1980's till the early 2000's (I did Radio, Promotions, Marketing, Management, and a Production or two) gold and platinum awards were everywhere, because a lot of people were selling.... Now, if you are lucky to be a part of some "digital download" project they are giving out these ugly as hell black and white digital download plaques.

Now back on topic;

Fast forward to my personal transition, there is still money on publishing, movies, commercials/advertising and video game soundtracks. What I have found is as long as there are people paying their cable bill, TV audio is going to be one of the last safe havens left. Same with video Games (but that is getting pirated more and more) Movies, people still like the theatre experience, heck Avatar sold in the Billion$, imagine if you had a little diddy or music piece on that film.

But on the Pop music side sad to say he is right, all but dead unless you get on one of the few projects that raises above the crowd.

He is bitter but he is also being honest. Don't take was he said as 100% truth.

But there IS still money out there in Pop Music, you just have to believe in the quality of what you are doing and raise above the crowd, just remember that 80%-90% of your potential income WILL BE STOLEN!...So instead of making $100 Million on your smash record or two or three, you'll make $10 Million...I'll take that!....and invest it in one of those needed industries he stated.

How can all this mess be ended? Make digital theft a first degree felony...problem gone overnight!

[cavern]

Originally Posted by strauss

You can fake a lot on stage

that's true but people won't put up with that very long cause they'll be there to complaint. it will be interactive.
it won't be ,let's just do whatever we want, and cram it down their throats a few months later and you won't be able to do 10 takes one note at a time..you'll at least have to get it right the first time and that's a step in the right direction.i.m.o.

[strauss]

Actually the artists that make the most money here are the dance dj's/producers. They have very low overhead costs..either on stage or in the studio..

[cavern]

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

The problem with that position is that far fewer people will want to be involved in anything other than a hobbyist level. Also, what kind of music makes the most money playing around your home town? It's usually probably not challenging and innovative original tunes. Who givse a crap if people get really good at playing cover tunes? I'd rather have the guy in the bedroom with a computer who has a reasonable chance at making a living from actually selling the music he makes (and therefore can reach a viable market that can support him.) When all you have is people in pubs in your area, that's much different from having the ability to sell music to the (possibly very widely spread) people who like your particular type of music around the world.

So it's hardly going to be good for music, IMO. It won't foster innovation, and it will significantly discourage people from getting into the business, because there won't be any business.

there will still be recordings going on.you'll still have to put it on some type of medium for people who liked what they heard live and want to listen to it in their cars or homes whatever that medium is gonna be..but if the bigger chunk of the payoff was live, you'd have to be able to play proficiently or the rest of your income would not materialize and that's only fair.i also think it would add value to the art and maybe even drive the payoffs higher like pro sport..these guys make a lot of money but they can play for real in real time..

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by strauss

You can fake a lot on stage

Not really. When was the last time you did 3 or 4 45 minute sets in one evening?

[skills]

Originally Posted by AaronBerman

Anyone know what he is talking about here?!?!?

Waves Vocal Rider.

Part One of the completely automatic mix system...

[strauss]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

Not really. When was the last time you did 3 or 4 45 minute sets in one evening?

Sometimes some stuff people hear 'live' from stage is played back.
I have done a couple of jobs where I had to make stems that had to sound like it was played live..

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by strauss

Sometimes some stuff people hear 'live' from stage is played back.
I have done a couple of jobs where I had to make stems that had to sound like it was played live..

Yes. That's called "faking it" or "cheating". Artists that do that don't generally go over very well when people find out. I refer you to Milli Vanilli...... Of Britney Spears recent Aussie tour, for that matter - the fans were PISSED when the news came out that she was syncing.....

The thing is, if you're paying attention you can tell the difference. And trying to pull off lip sync at local bar gigs is damn near impossible.

[wwittman]

Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering

Sounds like one part truth, mixed with one part bitterness.

one part truth, 4 parts bitterness

is he a currently BUSY producer?


I might agree with the conclusion at least to some degree, but the tone is obnoxious.

and apparently he actually thinks saying "pro fools" is "clever", which is a bit worrying...

[Igotsoul4u]

Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering

Sounds like one part truth, mixed with one part bitterness.

Sometimes the truth is awfully bitter. I agree with everything the guy said. If you want to live in poverty for long stretches and have no sense of security in your life, go for it. Family, house, and fun may be the cost. The bottom line is the music biz can end up ruining your life if you don't go in prepared with a bail out plan. Not having a good plan is an excellent way to come out with debt and no options but retail. That's the problem with music/studio skills; they are only useful in 3 industries and the one we are mostly interested in has completely failed. It's a bummer but totally true.

[basskater87]

this thread makes me sad.


This sounds like a guy that's giving up to me. I hate the not knowing who it is though, it could be my grandma. Not trying to discredit the original poster, just saying, to me, this business is all PEOPLE.


The more friends/talk/gossip you have about you and your business, the better. You don't have to be a Lord-Alge to do this, and you don't have to be Bill Gates to create software. It takes networking like crazy, taking jobs on the side, and just doing it. If you love it enough, you CAN make it happen and make an okay living doing it. When I used to assist my old boss made $35 an hour from his clients. I thought it was crazy at the time, he wasn't even that good mixing! But the thing was, he acted professional, knew what he was doing (and pretended he did or asked me when he didn't) and worked hard.

There will always be people with money to spend on stuff that is their passion. Music will always be a passion for somebody. The problem isn't that piracy is killing everything (although it doesn't help), it's that there's no huge new innovation with music, the labels won't change their business plan even though they know it's not working, and people aren't learning to play instruments like they used to.

Don't complain. Don't worry.

Work hard, have fun!