Sometimes the loudness war makes me feel ill, literally

[Silver Sonya]

I suppose this is a topic that's been discussed at length many times, but... I gotta say... music that has been ground into a fine paste, y'know, that zero db dynamic range, squared-off thing that everyone loves so much these days apparently, well, sometimes it actually makes me nauseous.

I don't mean this figuratively. I mean it literally.

If forced to listen to it loud, I get a little tiny bit of vertigo and an immediate headache. I'm constantly astounded how bad really expensively produced records sound these days. It's ironic how much better lower-budget music often sounds than higher-budget music. Freaks me out sometimes. Listen to the first album by the band The Sea And Cake. Warm, unforced, detailed, inviting, interesting, hi-fi. Fun to play really loud on your stereo. And probably not all that expensive to make!

The first Absurdly Limited record that I heard --- I mean, ABSURD --- was an Andrew WK disc that someone put on at the end of a session as a joke. I was transfixed by the sound. It was a total brick wall. I couldn't believe it. Super loud, supershrill, no life whatsoever. I actually thought it was funny. I thought there was a sense of humour to it and, to be honest with you, at the level of comedy I thought it was quite a great piece of art. Like every beer commercial you've ever heard rushing at you like a fascist, undifferentiated sine wave. Ha ha. A riot.

The thing is I thought for sure: well, that's the loudest, most crushed damned thing I've ever heard. Nothing will ever touch that. Wrong! I started hearing more and more records that were like this, with less of the sense of tongue-in-cheek over-the-topness. And then I realized I may have been wrong about crediting the Andrew WK(tm) people with a sense of humour. Like, y'know, maybe people think this sound really ROKS!

And now I have to worry when I buy a record if it's going to have this sound, which pretty much renders the music useless to me as a listener.

And now we're in a world where people want to talk about the fine and subtle qualities of 1073's blah blah blah, but then ultimately crush the living snot out of their music for the end user. And it's really conspicuous, it's not subtle, how totally ABSURD the whole thing is. It's really weird, this age.

Y'know, I guess that's all I wanted to say. This age that we're living in... it's really f***in' weird.

That's all I wanted to say. Carry on.

- Chad

[superburtm]

I hear you man..I just got the new stones record and it's smashed as hell sounding too.

[elfy]

I know what you mean man, im edging my way into mastering, did a tune the other day, got the levels to the point i thought it needed to be without degrading the songs integrity, rms levels about -12.5, the guy says its good, but id like the rms to be around -9,

I just thought, **** me. Even -12.5 is pushing, i would have gone around -14, but what do you do.
Dont they here the degredation or what.

[ExistanceMusic]

Many new records, I often get the feeling my head is being squashed, like when you squeeze your palms to your temples. Kinda like the the feeling when two things are little out of phase, but different.


What a weird game we're in.

[The dman]

To me it's like somebody's in your face screaming at you.

[rvwainscott]

I dont get it. I mean, damn, it isn't like there is a shortage of wattage or anything. Just listen to most cars when you are at a red light and you cant help but hear the insane levels of volume coming through the windshield and tickling your spleen.

Given that most end users can make the recording as loud as they want, why do we ruin the recording with so much compression? Well, I know why we do. It is to make the client happy but we should refuse or something. Maybe go on strike.

I agree with the earlier post. -14rms is acceptable.

Robert V. Wainscott

[Riccardo]

This age that we're living in... it's really f****in' weird.

That's all I wanted to say. Carry on.

- Chad[/QUOTE]

Pretty much explains it all.

Sad.

[MASSIVE Master]

Hey... There's an idea... It makes someone ill...

"Mr. Congressman? Yes, this is Mr. Gearslut. Could we pass a little law that makes mastering above a certain RMS level illegal? It makes certain people feel ill, and makes otherwise wonderful sounding music sound like it's going through a cheese grater. Unless you want a bunch of lawsuits on your hands... Uh... Yes, I'll hold..."

[BJohnston]

OverMastering is a serious problem. I was listening to the Smashing Pumpkins-Gish record the other day. It's one of many records I love, the mastering is really just the icing. You can feel the record breathe. You can sit down and listen to the mixs without exausting your ears. We're moving backwards instead of forwards, IMO.

[Jonboy79]

I know a lot of people are in love with rick rubin on this board but I think the song Duality is a perfect example of shit being WAY TOO LOUD! Its a great song thats just plain irretating to listen too due to the fact it sounds like every instrument has been squashed together in a 3x3 room and recorded with the gain knobs maxed. Stuff like this is unacceptable especially from pros. I'm glad I don't get "can we make it louder" in my studio very often.

[max cooper]

Yeah, the problem is that it's not just Limp Bizquik albums, it's every damn thing. Smashed all to heck. I'm becoming one with my collection of '60's and '70's LP's.

[BJohnston]

PHP Code:

Smashed all to heck. I'm becoming one with my collection of '60's and '70's LP's. 


Absolutely an amazing time in recording history. That's when a record could breathe. We need to look back to realign ourselves in some way.

B

[kevinc]

The great thing about it is a makes absolutely, positvely no ****ing sense whatsoever in any way shape or form.

There is no reason for it.

If one song is at a different level than another song they can RAISE THE ****ING VOLUME of the other song at the radio station to match the first.

It`s that simple. Radio stations figured out how to do that 60 years ago.

Do these morons think the same uneducated listener who can`t tell the smashed stuff sounds like shit can pick up minute overall volume differences from a track which is less compressed than another on the radio ?

Complete bullshit.

Stupid morons.

[picksail]

I have to give Chad props for his remastering of Thirteen Songs by Fugazi. Really, really, great job!!!

[themaidsroom]

it's totally weird..............

harsh sound.............

effectively, it could be argued that all of us gearslutz should go to south america and do
the jim jones kool aid thing in that 70 % of music is now consumed in mp3 format......
in other words......so much of what we do is meaningless to 70% of the world
and everybody's o.k. with that........
8,000 songs !!

i freaked a friend of mine out today with a piece of vinyl........
someone who has spent the last three or four years with digital..........
people forget what is possible spatially........that plane is very
limited inside the box.......i think people start lifting faders,
compressing and maximizing to find that corporal, dimensional sense........
translated as volume........
something like an ice pick to the ear
develops.........
and then it
is all painfully surreal...........


and outside
we have
"the greatest terror alert since 9/11"

slash medicaid
keep the taxcut
that person who's our president for 8 years

weird



sorry for the tangents
be well

- jack

[ctmartin]

Maybe I'm being a bit too anaytical, but I wonder if this uber-limiting isn't a sort-of universal sickness, psychologically speaking. Of course there are many "practical" reasons... But as far as the music I hear this being applied to, maybe there's an actual inability to withstand any sort of emotion -- dynamics... it could be a "chicken & egg" thing (which came first, the inability? or the feeding of consumers with music having no dynamic swing?), but...

Indeed, I think it is a product of our society, and a shaper of it at the same time.

[juicemaster1500]

nobody makes really good records any more,

it doesn't matter cos people are making really loud records instead.

why didn't John Lennon think of that? nobody wants a good melody.. they just want a record that's really loud.

[kevinc]

Yeah.

It`s like in this time when the level of musicianship has declined so much the engineers and record label people have to put their own personal suck stamp on the music as well.

BD, autotune, and smashy smashy !

We`ll butcher this allready crappy performance into something virtually souless and robotic as possible which makes it radio worthy in this generation.

[Falken]

just found this thread. y'know, the context is a huge part of it.

for instance, I can't stand cake's last album. its not overly smashed at all, but the tone that the computer imparts onto the album is so bad I can't listen to more than the first couple songs.

compare that to System of a Down, who is loud as all ****, smashed to -6 db RMS, but it actually sounds good to me.

the new green day album at -6 db RMS sounds like horseshit. they were always at about -6 but never sounded *quite* that bad... so I guess it all depends on WHAT you're smashing and how was it played and produced.

[toolskid]

Well the last album I had produced - I specified that I didnt care about the loudness at mastering (top the delight of the engineer) at all, by far the most pleasure I've had listening back to stuff recently!

[s-boogie]

[QUOTE=Silver Sonya]I suppose this is a topic that's been discussed at length many times, but... I gotta say... music that has been ground into a fine paste, y'know, that zero db dynamic range, squared-off thing that everyone loves so much these days apparently, well, sometimes it actually makes me nauseous.

I don't mean this figuratively. I mean it literally.


great thread....
we should name this weird world "the zero db dynamic lounge".
everybody´s welcome to just damage their ears.

[DP40oz]

I agree with alot of whats being said but as someone who mixes mostly hard rock music I think this is one genre that benifits greatly from squashed mixes. Louder, more aggressive, in your face, relentless etc.. all of this adds to the vibe of a sound that strives to have this naturally. I won't speak for other genres of music but all you loudness haters please realize your not gonna convince a client that motley crue's Dr. Feelgood (Although a great sounding album) sounds better then modern day hard rock mixes even if you play them at the same volume. I put rap in a similar catagory. Go back and read every word used in this thread to describe why you hate loudness and those words can all be used to describe what Hard Rock and Rap (sometimes) want to have.

[auralsex?]

I started getting into 5.1 mixes on SACD and DVDA so I could hear something dynamic for a change. Unfortunatly surround mixes still are not main stream and mostly just big budget artists producing them.

[docformat]

you know its not just on cds and radio that its totally out-of-control but at the cinema too - and you can't get away from it there either. man i remember when i saw the first kill bill film - it was like torture especially as it was such a music-heavy soundtrack. my head was split in half when i came out.

[justicetones]

Originally Posted by MASSIVE Master

Hey... There's an idea... It makes someone ill...

"Mr. Congressman? Yes, this is Mr. Gearslut. Could we pass a little law that makes mastering above a certain RMS level illegal? It makes certain people feel ill, and makes otherwise wonderful sounding music sound like it's going through a cheese grater. Unless you want a bunch of lawsuits on your hands... Uh... Yes, I'll hold..."

You got My vote. I am thinking that between this and the fact that autotune is now expected leaving singers to be lazy are two of the many reasons why I think the music industry has gone downhill.

[A LaMere]

This is one of the best posts I've read on this website in my opinion....

don't you have a website somewhere?? I've seen your ads in tape op....
OK... I'm checking it out. I'd prefer that someone with this mindset master our next disc...

[espasonico]

The best thing will be to return to the record store those squashed albums saying that they sound like shit. If most of the people did that, it will be possible to change it, but nobody except us mind about this, so...

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by espasonico

The best thing will be to return to the record store those squashed albums saying that they sound like shit. If most of the people did that, it will be possible to change it, but nobody except us mind about this, so...

Funny I think this is exactly what is happening.... Not necessarily taking them back, the general public is just not buying them in the first place. If you want proof look at the whining the majors have been doing about sales then look at the development of the loudness wars, the time line between the two is more than just a coincidence.

Part of that is the lack of quality music for sure but I feel the other part is people don't connect to new music like they did before. I think this is (partly) due to the fact that the smashed CD is just too hard to listen to. Even though they don't know why, most people know that there is something wrong when they listen to a new CD. They can't put their finger on it but it is just missing something.

I had this conversation with a group of 20 somethings a little while ago and they all said that they just could not listen to music for a whole CD. They knew I was a recording engineer so they asked me why that might be…. funny huh?

[lucey]

One word:

Insecurity.





That's all it is. And that's what it is.






(A note to mixers, if you dont want your record loud, just ask for what you want. Any ME is happy to hear you say "not too limited". Of course most people who say they dont want it too loud then want it "just a little louder" once they hear it at -13 RMS ... it's just the world we're in.

I had a mix come in from a Euro label, mixed by a very successful LA guy that was L2d in mixing ... the producer wanted it much louder ... I had a hard time listening through the mix with the L2 sheen and Pro Tools/SSL combo, and my master was as good as possible, but it was not "loud enough".

To help me see what he wanted he sent over their last project, same mixer, mastered by Sterling ... all the peaks were chopped off. "This is what I want", he said. I suggested he return to Sterling and pay them $475/hr. to do that "special" service. Call me unprofessional but I have no interest in an L2d mix that needs to end up clipped on every kick and snare to be loud enough.)

[imnickb]

i know you guys arent going to value my opinion based on what im about to say, but i like the sound of squashed recordings. it totally depends on the genre, instrumentation, arrangement and a bunch of other things, but in the right situation, a good, loud track is good. everybody talks about how they miss the dynamic range of songs now, but in my mind a lot of songs dont need much dynamic range and probably sound better with less. rock stuff mostly i guess. how much dynamics are there coming out of a mesa rectifier? not a whole lot, and if there is its probably because somebody screwed somthing up. the same thing with drums. when i hear a steady backbeat on a rock track and out of nowhere the guy hits the snare a little bit harder or a little bit softer than he did the measure before and its not really in context i think, man somebody should have sound replacered that hit. yeah, there are a lot of times when stuff shouldnt be squashed but im just saying there are times when it should be too. and its not that i cant hear the difference either. im just saying if you can get more consistent, louder levels that dont make the track sound totally like garbage i think its worth it.