Am I in the wrong here?

[fakiekid]

So about 4 months ago I had to get a band in for a training session at the new studio I started working at. I asked a mate of mine (whos a live engineer) if his band would come along and play cos they're alright! BIG MISTAKE.

They had an extra day tracking (so I got in trouble with my boss) and I've been back and forth between their bassist and me over mixes (done about 10 versions). The rest of the band cant tell the difference and have been happy since day 1! I gave up with it as I was in the middle of the worst part of my degree and life had started taking over. I said to their bassist that he could come up and fix any issues he had as I was washing my hands of it.

Time passes, no bassist and I still have these darn files on my desktop. Boredom sets in so I started to tingle.

Sent them new mixes (attached) hundred times better tonally than before, rest of the band once again, like it, he pipes up, more and more adjustments (some of which now I agree with after having a day away to listen.). So I'm very pissed off,

and why might that be?

COS IT WAS FREE

they havnt paid a penny, all of this work and for absolutely nothing, I cannot believe the nerve of this guy!

Now, am I in the wrong? Should I fix it or let him come sort this for nothing? Am I in the wrong to tell him I want paying for any use of my stuff?

[toneguru]

You may not be wrong but you don's seem to be right either.

[joeydego]

I think it would be wrong to ask for money at this point. Being you kinda used them to learn from if I understand you correctly. You should pretty much settle on "this is the best I can do, heres the sessions. Get someone else if you like". Put it in a nicer way if you have to.

[joeydego]

BTW, the file sounds decent. I hate the toms, but like the vox and guitars. Id be happy if I were them considering what they paid

[tengu]

Stop being such a push over.

Give the dude the files and tell him to make the adjustments himself.

People never stand up for themselve anymore.

[maxpidge]

Originally Posted by tengu

Stop being such a push over.

Give the dude the files and tell him to make the adjustments himself.

People never stand up for themselve anymore.

[fakiekid]

Originally Posted by tengu

Stop being such a push over.

Give the dude the files and tell him to make the adjustments himself.

People never stand up for themselve anymore.

this is what I thought,

the guys got some adjustments to make, I've told him to give me some cash and come over to sort it with him in the room. I feel I should stand my ground and that this might be a common problem amongst home studio owners.

Here's the second song. We initially did three but the band scrapped the last one.

[kafka]

Well, what does he want changed? Does he want the bass louder? Does he wish he had a different tone? Is it not synced well enough with the rest of the group? Is it out of tune? Are there incorrect notes? Did you capture a DI, or did you just have a mic'd amp? Do you have the ability to re-record it DI outside the studio? Depending on how you recorded it, these are all solvable problems.

You're saying the rest of the band should be (and are) grateful they got a free demo. But that's not the standard your paying clients will hold you to. The people who pay you are more likely to be like your bassist. So, he's the one you can learn something from, not the rest of the band. They're offering you nothing constructive at all.

It's a training session. I assume that means you did it for your own benefit. You owe them nothing. Don't do anymore if you don't want to. But if there's still something to be learned from it, try to figure out what he's wants, and then do it.

[fakiekid]

Originally Posted by joeydego

BTW, the file sounds decent. I hate the toms, but like the vox and guitars. Id be happy if I were them considering what they paid

The toms, I will never use 421's again, shocking! It was an OCDP kit with smooth emperors on, gaffa'd up to the eyeballs (slappy yuk!). I got nothing but bleed from the 421's, had to cut all of the hits out as gating couldn't do it good enough. Have a look at it here

http://www.stablehousestudios.co.uk/IMG_1179.JPG

I think the mix needs some more guitar now listening back.

[fakiekid]

Originally Posted by kafka

Well, what does he want changed? Does he want the bass louder? Does he wish he had a different tone? Is it not synced well enough with the rest of the group? Is it out of tune? Are there incorrect notes? Did you capture a DI, or did you just have a mic'd amp? Do you have the ability to re-record it DI outside the studio? Depending on how you recorded it, these are all solvable problems.

You're saying the rest of the band should be (and are) grateful they got a free demo. But that's not the standard your paying clients will hold you to. The people who pay you are more likely to be like your bassist. So, he's the one you can learn something from, not the rest of the band. They're offering you nothing constructive at all.

It's a training session. I assume that means you did it for your own benefit. You owe them nothing. Don't do anymore if you don't want to. But if there's still something to be learned from it, try to figure out what he's wants, and then do it.

this had crossed my mind in the last month or so, that's why I opened the mixes back up. The training part was for me to learn the studio, wiring, patching, Soundscape at the time!, what mics were like and general usage of the Audient console.

He wants more 60hz on the kick, more 100hz on the bass, less compression and a tad more level on one of the vocalists, if I remember his last message, if he was paying me I would make sure this went out perfect (well, to the best of my ability and with them all being happy), but I have no gumption to delve back into these bloody mixes!

I think the real problem I have here is that it's a decent quality DEMO and he's just got no respect for the fact that it was free and the rest of the band have shown me that they appreciate it. All I get from him is some new problem and no focus on anything that is good.

Ahh well.....

[kafka]

Originally Posted by fakiekid

I think the real problem I have here is that it's a decent quality DEMO and he's just got no respect for the fact that it was free and the rest of the band have shown me that they appreciate it. All I get from him is some new problem and no focus on anything that is good.

Yeah, but people are a**holes. Nobody ever really appreciates anything. So, you need to look at every situation in terms of what you're going to get out of it. If dealing with a jerk takes you to the next level, then you're better off, because there's just a bigger jerk waiting for you when you get there.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by fakiekid

The toms, I will never use 421's again, shocking! It was an OCDP kit with smooth emperors on, gaffa'd up to the eyeballs (slappy yuk!). I got nothing but bleed from the 421's, had to cut all of the hits out as gating couldn't do it good enough. Have a look at it here

http://www.stablehousestudios.co.uk/IMG_1179.JPG

I think the mix needs some more guitar now listening back.

Haven't listened to the files mate, but if you can't get decent tom sounds with 421s...the problem is in the drums or the room!

the fact that you mention it's gaffered up is a good indication it's the kit. Cutting out/automating tom bleed is very usual too, and different mics won't get rid of that - if anything alternatives like 414s will capture more cymbals!

[The MPCist]

I'd just tell him 'hey, it's free. Here are the files so you can mix them if you want. If you like what I do, I could do a deal for you for future songs but the free trial period is over and thanks for helping me as well!'

[fakiekid]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Haven't listened to the files mate, but if you can't get decent tom sounds with 421s...the problem is in the drums or the room!

the fact that you mention it's gaffered up is a good indication it's the kit. Cutting out/automating tom bleed is very usual too, and different mics won't get rid of that - if anything alternatives like 414s will capture more cymbals!

never have issues with my usual D2/D4 combo, but I had to use the studios stuff to find out what its like. I actually think that the 421's their are broken! One for sure has the HPF in! I rarely use them now.

[fakiekid]

Originally Posted by The MPCist

I'd just tell him 'hey, it's free. Here are the files so you can mix them if you want. If you like what I do, I could do a deal for you for future songs but the free trial period is over and thanks for helping me as well!'

Multiple times I have offered to give them the tracks and do with them what they will, but they just say no.

[fakiekid]

Originally Posted by kafka

Yeah, but people are a**holes. Nobody ever really appreciates anything. So, you need to look at every situation in terms of what you're going to get out of it. If dealing with a jerk takes you to the next level, then you're better off, because there's just a bigger jerk waiting for you when you get there.

well I agree, I'm still new to this game really, but this has just left me feeling really useless and bad at what I wanna do. Not really good for the old ambition.

[kafka]

Just stick with it. One of problems with the music business is the totally unrealistic expectations of so many participants. People show up at sessions with worn out drum heads, unable to tune their instruments, no arrangements, and sometimes drunk or stoned. And they still expect you to make them look like a star. And if you don't, then you're the one who ripped them off.

Technical stuff is easy. It's the human part of any job that makes it hard. Besides, you're not in the "glory" side of the business. If you do a great job, the best you can expect is that they'll grumble and complain that it sounds good, but you were too expensive - and still come back. That's success.

[fakiekid]

what are peoples actual opinions on the mix? Do you think the drums might be too loud?

[joeydego]

is there a defined transient on the tom tracks? You can sample replace them. I think the overall track is better than some earlier stuff I've messed with. It sounds like a halfway decent demo (which I think is what it is supposed to be). It isnt horrible if thats what you're looking to hear, and you're not wasting your time. The drums are a bit off balance due to the toms. Id go for sample replacement if I were you. BTW, am I the only one who leaves tom bleed in?

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by fakiekid

never have issues with my usual D2/D4 combo, but I had to use the studios stuff to find out what its like. I actually think that the 421's their are broken! One for sure has the HPF in! I rarely use them now.

Of course there are other options...but things are rarely the "go to" standard without reason.

It's always a good idea to be able to work with the usual suspects, even if you prefer your own choices - the engineers people generally don't respect are those with the "if I can't use XX I can't do it" attitude.

[fakiekid]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Of course there are other options...but things are rarely the "go to" standard without reason.

It's always a good idea to be able to work with the usual suspects, even if you prefer your own choices - the engineers people generally don't respect are those with the "if I can't use XX I can't do it" attitude.

421's will work for me if they have to, but we also have a couple of 414's and 3 ATM25's that I would go to first. If I have to use the 421's (which we got from our old live sound guy when he gave up) I'll audition the 6 we have and find the best ones.

[Kris]

I think the mix sounds very nice...

What the bassist is asking for is a proper mastering job.

I'd give him the pre-mastered stereo mix and some references to some great mastering engineers and call it a day.

[-silent-sam-]

Originally Posted by fakiekid

So about 4 months ago I had to get a band in for a training session at the new studio I started working at. I asked a mate of mine (whos a live engineer) if his band would come along and play cos they're alright! BIG MISTAKE.

They had an extra day tracking (so I got in trouble with my boss) and I've been back and forth between their bassist and me over mixes (done about 10 versions). The rest of the band cant tell the difference and have been happy since day 1! I gave up with it as I was in the middle of the worst part of my degree and life had started taking over. I said to their bassist that he could come up and fix any issues he had as I was washing my hands of it.

Time passes, no bassist and I still have these darn files on my desktop. Boredom sets in so I started to tingle.

Sent them new mixes (attached) hundred times better tonally than before, rest of the band once again, like it, he pipes up, more and more adjustments (some of which now I agree with after having a day away to listen.). So I'm very pissed off,

and why might that be?

COS IT WAS FREE

they havnt paid a penny, all of this work and for absolutely nothing, I cannot believe the nerve of this guy!

Now, am I in the wrong? Should I fix it or let him come sort this for nothing? Am I in the wrong to tell him I want paying for any use of my stuff?

Tell him you are starving to death and you will gladly make any more changes for $x amount of money.

Otherwise you are moving on to the next project because you need to make some money to eat...

[narcoman]

unfortunately you set a precedent in your relationship with them by entertaining changes in the first place. Tell him the truth - speak to the bassist and tel him you are unwilling to do any more work on it.

I had clients like this earlier in my career.... just part of "it" I guess

[code 10]

This bass player sounds like a right tool, I'd just say, look me old china, I've done you a huge favour so far, you're taking the piss now, you have two choices, you either pay for my time as I'm fed up with all this messing about and eating my time up or I'll put your files on a DVD and you can do what you like with them.

I've had similar problems myself and along similar lines, recently I did some folks a big favour, I won't go into all the details but it was a total nightmare, pissed up musicians get very annoying whilst you're trying to mix their hash of a song, one of my best pals ended up recording them after I threw the towel in only after my first and last session with them, my pal who's a very calm guy nearly strangled the guitar player in the band at one point, suffice to say, he'll never ever record them again.

[fakiekid]

Originally Posted by Tony-->

This bass player sounds like a right tool, I'd just say, look me old china, I've done you a huge favour so far, you're taking the piss now, you have two choices, you either pay for my time as I'm fed up with all this messing about and eating my time up or I'll put your files on a DVD and you can do what you like with them.

I've had similar problems myself and along similar lines, recently I did some folks a big favour, I won't go into all the details but it was a total nightmare, pissed up musicians get very annoying whilst you're trying to mix their hash of a song, one of my best pals ended up recording them after I threw the towel in only after my first and last session with them, my pal who's a very calm guy nearly strangled the guitar player in the band at one point, suffice to say, he'll never ever record them again.

with some research, the last guy who recorded their stuff also gave up, the bassist sat and mixed it with him.

you can hear that stuff here

US vs. Them **NEW VIDEO** on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos

the problem is, the bassist is one heck of a live sound guy! wouldn't put it past him!

[code 10]

Originally Posted by fakiekid

with some research, the last guy who recorded their stuff also gave up, the bassist sat and mixed it with him.

you can hear that stuff here

US vs. Them **NEW VIDEO** on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos

the problem is, the bassist is one heck of a live sound guy! wouldn't put it past him!

I'm not a very good politician, I'd flick him in the head and say 'son, ya giving me the ump now sunshine, do one'

Some people, you give them an inch and they take a mile, its a shame that this bass player doesn't realise that he's taking the pee, maybe, like others have said, pull him to one side and just be honest with him, tell him how you're feeling about the whole thing and take it from there, I hope it works out for you, I really do.

I'm more than up for giving people a helping hand, but once I feel they're taking liberties then I have to say something :-)

[fakiekid]

Originally Posted by Tony-->

I'm not a very good politician, I'd flick him in the head and say 'son, ya giving me the ump now sunshine, do one'

Some people, you give them an inch and they take a mile, its a shame that this bass player doesn't realise that he's taking the pee, maybe, like others have said, pull him to one side and just be honest with him, tell him how you're feeling about the whole thing and take it from there, I hope it works out for you, I really do.

I'm more than up for giving people a helping hand, but once I feel they're taking liberties then I have to say something :-)

haha! your from london but speak exactly as we do here in the east midlands (missing h's etc!). That or your taking the michael! That is basically what I have done!

I've told him to come over Tuesday, 5er an hour (minimum wage ish), sort it on his time. He can do the lot seeing as he knows better than me.

[PhilR]

Ho ho I KNEW I recognised that drumkit! (we recorded Of All Things aaaaaaaages ago) When you see Chris again tell him that Phil says hello. :D

Funny thing about those Orange County kits, I knew how expensive they are and expected it to sound amazing but it simply didn't. Chris is a great drummer (even if he does royally bum Travis Barker) but those OCDP kits are seriously overrated. Our current Gretsch kit sounds better.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by fakiekid

with some research, the last guy who recorded their stuff also gave up, the bassist sat and mixed it with him.

you can hear that stuff here

US vs. Them **NEW VIDEO** on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos

the problem is, the bassist is one heck of a live sound guy! wouldn't put it past him!

that certainly doesn't qualify him to be any more "excellent" on a studio mix. Still tell him.... I personally think he's full of it. A little 100hz off the bass and 60hz on the kick my fekkin balls... I heard your mix. It's fine.

Rock City? Used to live in that place!!