Alicia Keys...sans the autotune...

[antoniosolo]

I have heard the new single for Alicia Keys new album and am astounded that there is no use of autotune on this song! There is an obvious need, either she is raw-dawgin these days or maybe the motto in her studio is measure twice, cut once. Not that I think it is bad, this is art. I have the greatest respect for her and consider her one of the greater songwriters and performers in R and B. I just don't understand why the lead vocal is as raw as it is! Had I produced this, I would have required the vocals to be in better tune, organically at least..... Or maybe the overuse of this software has opened my ears to every little quiver.....

[coyotekells]

Originally Posted by antoniosolo

I have heard the new single for Alicia Keys new album and am astounded that there is no use of autotune on this song! There is an obvious need, either she is raw-dawgin these days or maybe the motto in her studio is measure twice, cut once. Not that I think it is bad, this is art. I have the greatest respect for her and consider her one of the greater songwriters and performers in R and B. I just don't understand why the lead vocal is as raw as it is! Had I produced this, I would have required the vocals to be in better tune, organically at least..... Or maybe the overuse of this software has opened my ears to every little quiver.....

I think that your last statement is part of the equation. Not all, but part.

The style of tracking and mixing on modern R&B records is quite in your face and thus more revealing of error in performance.

That aside, I agree, why don't they re-cut some of Keys' vocals? Surely some of the pitchiness in her songs didn't go unoticed by her and engineer(s)?

I haven't noticed anything yet though that has grates on me too much, but I definitely notice it sometimes and wonder...

PS. I'm not what the latest single is, which you'd be referring to. But presumably I've heard it.

[Keire]

I saw people complaining about her "pitchy" singing on No One...I thought that was one of the stronger hit songs of last year....definitely as far as performance goes...I felt that she was giving it...and I bought the story she was telling alot more than most songs I hear on the radio.


Some of the keyboard sounds were a little lame actually, and some of the 808 sounds were too masculine for my taste...but overall I really like that tune.

[Dean Roddey]

It's come to the point where an actual human performance is considered uncouth. Well, actually I guess were were there a long time ago. Maybe it's kind of a t-pain thing. Singing out of perfect key is so unusual now that it will be seen as a hip thing. Man, that humanizer effect is SO COOL.

[Sqye]

.

Look - there's out of tune, and then there's slightly and occasionally out of tune.

...And no disrespect to AK, but she sings WAY out of tune.

Pretty much, most of the time (as does MJB).


But whatever, she's got heart and soul, and she's pretty talented.

...Just dang out of tune, is all.

.

[usefullidiot]

I am not a huge Alica Keys fan but I love her album As I am...I think the album is fantastic, I love the old school drum sounds and the players sound killer...

Alica Keys (at least on this album) to me sounds like she is just a bit flat quite often...this is not unusual and actually adds to her flavour/sound IMO

Miles Davis was always a touch flat
Thom Yorke is often flat...its not a big deal to me at all...

part of a musicians quest is to use there strengths and weaknesses to somekind of musical benefit...Alica Keys does this as does these other examples...Autotune is (IMO) actually a barrier to an artist finding a uniqueness that may actually be very beneficial to their sound

[Enlightened Hand]

I've never been impressed with Alicia Keys as a singer or piano player. She has a really fatiguing vocal technique that to my ears always sounds like she's straining to get the note. She seems to pinch her throat off and sing without any comfort at all. On top of that she's apparently not very practiced in singing in key. Overall I'd say that she's average at best as a singer. Then there's her elementary piano playing. Don't let the studio magic fool you, without her backing musicians and auto tune she'd be in hard shape to sound excellent.

But I can say that I like quite a few of her songs, which just confirms that it's not so much about technique or vocal quality as it is about songs that people can get in to.

Liz

[strauss]

Originally Posted by antoniosolo

..... Or maybe the overuse of this software has opened my ears to every little quiver.....

ditto!
listened to some old jackson 5 and suddenly realised there are some pitchy moments which never bothered me back then..

[strauss]

Originally Posted by Enlightened Hand

But I can say that I like quite a few of her songs, which just confirms that it's not so much about technique or vocal quality as it is about songs that people can get in to.

technique is only interesting for singers and producers..the mass just wants to vibe to a feeling.

[Enlightened Hand]

It's true. But I worry about her voice.

[rack gear]

for me, emotion is always more important than pitch. energy is energy. after a gazillion takes, and tuning... well, it's a different game.

gimmie raw pitchy untuned emotional authentic vocals any day...

people forget these are singers not machines - working w/ a vocalist recently who was booked on GMA and the PR people were running her down - finally I had to draw the line - call time for GMA is 4:45am people... seriously, how good are you going to be if you're working 16 hour days and getting 3 hours sleep a night for week and have a 4:45am call time? ... but I digress... real people, real voices, real emotion...

ps: love Alicia Keys too...

[Ken Walker]

I remember reading an interview with her in a mag (I think it was Keyboard). AK is no fan of autotune. She said that she likes the raw performance because it better conveys the emotional content of the song.

She might be an above average vocalist at best, and she's really only an ordinary keyboardist, but I have respect for singers who also play and compose. There aren't many around these days. Props to AK. If anyone wants to hear autotuned vocals, you know where to find them.

[Studio Addict]

Originally Posted by antoniosolo

...and consider her one of the greater songwriters and performers in R and B.

Which just goes to show how FAAAAAAR modern R&B has slid down the hill!

[antoniosolo]

...she deserved all of her Grammys and I sang along with NO ONE daily....try to top that! And I don't care how many ivories you tinkle if they weren't derived from your own thought process!

[Toro]

Originally Posted by Enlightened Hand

I've never been impressed with Alicia Keys as a singer or piano player. She has a really fatiguing vocal technique that to my ears always sounds like she's straining to get the note. She seems to pinch her throat off and sing without any comfort at all. On top of that she's apparently not very practiced in singing in key. Overall I'd say that she's average at best as a singer. Then there's her elementary piano playing. Don't let the studio magic fool you, without her backing musicians and auto tune she'd be in hard shape to sound excellent.

But I can say that I like quite a few of her songs, which just confirms that it's not so much about technique or vocal quality as it is about songs that people can get in to.

Liz

Liz you are tripping really hard !!

[RKrizman]

She's consistently flat. Its almost as if it's her style. Not sure I buy it, but she is engaging.

-R

[usefullidiot]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

She's consistently flat. Its almost as if it's her style. Not sure I buy it, but she is engaging.

-R

yep and lots of people are.

Who likes perfection anyway??

[vitreouswindows]

I recall several decades back when I was on a National Endowment for the Humanities grant at the Center for Black Music Research at Columbia College in downtown Chicago, and I was looking at African music's characteristics, and amidst a plethora of differences from the Western European Art Music aesthetic, it was evident that other things are more important than 'perfectly centered pitch' - in fact, the style often precludes it.

Amidst that study I recall reading about an evening when several big bands were sharing the stage. The listener noted that one of the 'white' bands (Benny Goodman? I don't recall - if another remembers this story feel free to correct me) played very well, but when (I think it was) Jimmy Lunceford's band played there were missed notes and intonation inaccuracies, but the vibe and blast of the band made for a far more compelling experience.

Perhaps it's about what one values - not better/worse or right/wrong.

[OneUp Ent]

Originally Posted by Enlightened Hand

I've never been impressed with Alicia Keys as a singer or piano player. She has a really fatiguing vocal technique that to my ears always sounds like she's straining to get the note. She seems to pinch her throat off and sing without any comfort at all. On top of that she's apparently not very practiced in singing in key. Overall I'd say that she's average at best as a singer. Then there's her elementary piano playing. Don't let the studio magic fool you, without her backing musicians and auto tune she'd be in hard shape to sound excellent.

But I can say that I like quite a few of her songs, which just confirms that it's not so much about technique or vocal quality as it is about songs that people can get in to.

Liz

I definitely don't agree. To sing with that much feeling and play is not average. If so there would be tons of artist like her. There are some with better vocal control, but they may not convey the emotion as well, compose their own music, play and sing. When she sing with just her and the piano live without backing, there is no studio magic and it is usually a killer performance.

[balcony]

We probably need more out of tune,out of time, out there,fked up,weirdo stuff. Anyways,she is hott. All be forgiven.

[TSPRW]

Originally Posted by OneUp Ent

I definitely don't agree. To sing with that much feeling and play is not average. If so there would be tons of artist like her. There are some with better vocal control, but they may not convey the emotion as well, compose their own music, play and sing. When she sing with just her and the piano live without backing, there is no studio magic and it is usually a killer performance.

I think you pretty much nailed it on the head. With the advancement of "studio magic", we as engineers increasingly tweak, manipulate, even radically redesign the majority of what we record/mix. In the quest for more pleasing sound, we often run the risk of sterilizing a recording by over processing the elements that humanize a piece. Conversely, if we edit too little then everything just sounds downright sloppy.

In other words, this question of weather or not her voice "sounds better" processed or not is more accurately a debate of, yes, personal taste; but also take into acount the economics behind what a producer feels drives the sales of a particular artist. To some, R&B is all about conveying a specific emotive state; to others it's merely 'evening' music; and to others still it's a paycheck. In Alicia's case, her live show actually does account for a huge portion of her fan base, so (in my unbiased opinion ) it makes sense to add that flavor to her recorded work.

Take as another example form a different genre entirely the solo work of Jon Foreman (lead singer from Switchfoot). He sings each EP entirely out of key, but I guarantee you that you'll feel something emotionally. (if nothing else you may suddenly yern for defness).

All this to say that people should sound like people even when recorded and not robots. :-P

[ripper]

a bit out of the genre but i think my fav ever guitar note is that hubert sumlin clanger in howling wolf's spoonful.
it's simply the wrong note in the main guitar part...

a big oops, a shrug and an i-dont-give-a-f*ck-take-that! all in one bung note. makes me smile every time.... i wait for it in anticipation when i hear the song and i go "yeah" every time he hits it, or rather MISSES it! gimme more of THAT and less of this jangle an eighth note repetitively that's been so in vogue over the last years with "guitarists"
that said, i think audiences are more aware of vocal mistakes than guitar clangers...

[bcgood]

Originally Posted by vitreouswindows

I recall several decades back when I was on a National Endowment for the Humanities grant at the Center for Black Music Research at Columbia College in downtown Chicago, and I was looking at African music's characteristics, and amidst a plethora of differences from the Western European Art Music aesthetic, it was evident that other things are more important than 'perfectly centered pitch' - in fact, the style often precludes it.

Amidst that study I recall reading about an evening when several big bands were sharing the stage. The listener noted that one of the 'white' bands (Benny Goodman? I don't recall - if another remembers this story feel free to correct me) played very well, but when (I think it was) Jimmy Lunceford's band played there were missed notes and intonation inaccuracies, but the vibe and blast of the band made for a far more compelling experience.

Perhaps it's about what one values - not better/worse or right/wrong.

Yes, that is well put and I agree. I'll take a real human performance with imperfections over an overproduced robot vocal any day, (unless that is the intention aka Daft Punk etc).

[Dean Roddey]

We're heading in the other direction, I believe. And I suck like a fox. I'm just biding my time, playing the angles and the timing, so that I'll be right there at the right place when sucking really bad comes back into style. Groupies to your starting positions, please.

[Friedemann]

It´s funny how people constantly complain about how "unmusical" autotune is and that it is so overused and stuff. Then there comes a singer that is not using it, gives a decent performance and leaves its pitchy points here and there - and people start complaining again.

[Peter Stengaard]

Originally Posted by Friedemann

It´s funny how people constantly complain about how "unmusical" autotune is and that it is so overused and stuff. Then there comes a singer that is not using it, gives a decent performance and leaves its pitchy points here and there - and people start complaining again.

- I think she's a good enough singer that she could have nailed it better even without autotune...I don't get either why it's so pitchy. I get not wanting to tune it...but then get to work and start punching in !!!

- listen to the old Bryan Adams records - not autotune and the guy is spot on...I'm not saying he didn't get mutt-****ed but at least he earned his 100+ mill record sales...

[HookedOnHardware]

I like AK, especially her first two albums. Some of the songs are very well produced and I like the vibe on both (live instruments always give me much more pleasure than 808's etc).

On the other hand, I've hated 'No one' since the day it came out. What an annoying song! There is no build-up, it's just this constant "No one, no one, noooo oneeee" crap. I hate the beginning too. However, I'm not too familiar with her more recent work so perhaps I should do my home work. [/RANT]

I'll conclude with the following; she has a Duality. She's cool in my book .

[TexWinamp]

Good vocals and perfectly in-tune vocals are not in any way interchangeable concepts or necessary components of the other. Period.

For certain genres it may be more important than others, but popular music? Hell no. Rythm and BLUES? You've got to be kidding me.

I'd say, as popular music is concerned, perfectly in tune vocals are the exception rather than the rule. I'd say some talented artists and producers chooses to autotune because it produces a certain effect. And a lot of, at most, mediocre artists and producers (and I'm not ashamed to admit I myself belong to this latter category), use it, either because it is the only way to make the tracks work at all, or because they lack the confidence to keep it raw.

[Karloff70]

Alicia Keys seems to have a wee problem singing to full backing. Tends to be her tone that goes off in that battle more than her pitch to me (bit of both), although that can be at least as disturbing. Very, to me when she does it. However, she sounds amazing when singing with only piano.....so hey.....seems an unconquered head thing of competing with 'the bigger sound' perhaps........not a problem for me, as to my mind the records don't hold any magic (unlike her sitting at a piano!), so I don't listen to them out of own choice.

[solo-bration]

Originally Posted by Sqye

.
(as does MJB).

Gotta agree here. I never understood why she was put on such a pedestal. Always sounded kinda of shreiky to my ears.