A lot of high end posts and threads seem inappropriate

[Ampex 354]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

If a piece of s**t gets reworked into something really great, should it be elevated to the High End column?

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Isn't that sort of thing part of the remit of the 'Geekslutz' forum? (I mean also, there's probably not enough of that activity here to warrant a sub-forum therein strictly for the mega-upgrade set.)

[jjblair]

Teddy: "Irregardless" is not a word. It's "regardless."

AT uses hot melt glue to hold their capsules in place. That's not professional quality. "Prosumer," is more like it.

BTW, I never said good music is not being recorded outside of LA, or $2,000/day studios.

/conversation

[Jim Williams]

Military grade hot glue is very good...

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by jjblair

Teddy: "Irregardless" is not a word. It's "regardless."

[Duardo]

well, to some it is, JJ... and thats the sort of thing(and I don't know if you meant it that way) but I find(and I know others do).. this sort of looking down on others who have lesser amounts of money to spend really, really condescending, off=putting, and arrogant.

It's not about looking down on people who have lesser amounts of money to spend...these specific forums are, after all, about gear...and whether or not $7,500 is a lot of money to you it is not enough money to put a complete high end studio together. It is certainly true that a studio with $7500 in gear an put out a phenomenal-sounding product in the right hands, but that doesn't mean that a forum about high end gear is the place to discuss it.

terms like "high end" --- they just divide and encourage looking down at others.

How does it encourage looking down at others?

Telling someone they should be posting in a different forum isn't necessarily "looking down" at them (although it could be, depending on how it is handled).

a more helpful categorization would be to organize headers based on type of music recorded(like with the rap.hip hop forum), or organizing based on MERIT (professional credentials, number of years in the business, etc(pro vs novice, etc)..because we all know that there are a LOT of new guys running around with expensive stuff....because of that, it pollutes the integrity of the forum..

It's been said already, but I agree...this would be much more divisive than categorizing things based on gear.

i posted it in high end because i expected those guys to have experience tracking and mixing through those consoles (toft being upwards of $7000+).

I don't recall anyone in that thread taking issue with you posting about the Toft board in there?

Having said that, if you were to ask most people what a "high end" console was I think most would think of something like an SSL, Neve or API console before a Toft...

so...if someone was discussing Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska, Bon Iver's album, Sufjan's illinoise.... they, according to your "caste system" rules could not discuss those albums here...because they were made on normal, real world stuff. How silly is that?

Well, when it comes down to the gear used to record those albums no, I wouldn't expect them to be discussed in the High End forum...because they weren't recorded with high end gear (although, if I recall correctly, "Nebraska" at least was mixed through a high-end console, was it not?).

[Teddy Ray]

Categories based on "money" are meaningless...that is to say...

they don't do any real good..in terms of forum output. Because anyone with money can own these "pro" (that you use when a career is on the line)things and talk about them, no matter how green/wet behind the ears/uninformed they are. It dilutes..

A hierarchy based on experience/stripes is valuable. The social stratification we see here ((wherein the only requirement is that you have enough money to buy XXX..)), man..i just dont see how it does any good (in terms of advancing the knowledge/the recording arts) How many posts do we see complaining about the quality of information ??There are a lot of folks who consider this place a farce, pure comedy...and this is one of the reasons why.. there are so many bright, insanely talented folks here but it is hard to see that through the fog)

Meritocracy establishment..yes, divisive!..... as it should be. this is much better than a "wealth" division. you dont get to have all those credits by being a hack...there are, however, plenty of hacks with money.


anyway. the forum could be a lot better, the quality of information could be greatly improved if we had classifications that were meaningful.

I guess where I am steering wrong...considering this more of a "recording knowledge" forum..wanting to look deeper, find deeper meaning..trying to make it that in my mind, when at the heart of it it seems to be purely material. anyway.. I think as time goes on, as technology advances, the gear will be less and less important (it isn't even important now, really) and these categories as they stand will be even less relevant.


I know that the idea of categorizing based on credentials is daunting, terrifying, and humbling... but I would ***love**** to see that. to see folks judged according to their merit as an engineer rather than the pieces of metal they own.


and yeah, I do feel a need to stand up for those that don't have silver spoons planted in their 3rd points of contact.. It sucks to hear "you aren't high end enough" coming from some no-talent hack(and that was a general statement so please dont think I am talking about anyone in particular)...who can say that only because of some monetary advantage.. and it ***really*** i mean **really** chaps my hide to have some dude say "well, a real pro wouldnt reach for that if his salary were on the line" -- because beside being uninformed(such a statement assumes that all "pros" think alike and that all "pros" use the same equipment, that they all dislike/wont use certain equipment), it is off-putting/misleading(someone , maybe a newer guy/gal will think, mistakenly, "Hey, I own this so Ill never get a good result with it...i need to upgrade")... and just plain RUDE.

anyway, im pissing in the wind here, so to speak, but ive always had a problem with condescension(growing up on a farm, in an Agrarian community), with systems that encourage Class Divisions based on circumstances that individuals have no control over.


The signal to noise ratio would go way, way WAY down(probably dip below audibility threshold) If a "merit" hierarchy were in place. (you see that somewhat with the mastering webboard. no nonsense, minimal gear talk(no you gotta own this) or just good information. Too bad the forum layout is clunky and dated.


I hope I am making sense. It does to me. .truly the last post in this particular thread...ive said what I needed to say .

oh yeah.... the guys that were run off (we all miss them...the *real* professionals)..i bet theyd return if the SNR were better.



anyway, off to bed. signing out of this thread for good. I am trying to get a handle on my "internet mouth" so chaste I must be.


EOM

NOTHING FOLLOWS

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[Sinocelt]

Originally Posted by Via Ferria

Perhaps the HIgh End forum could be moved down the list, so that it's not the first place to naturally go to and the Low End forum could be renamed to Gear or something to get rid of the negative connotations of it's current name. . I'm new here anyway. That would solve all the problems though.

Sounds like a good idea to me. Worth trying, at the very least. It is true that "low end" can be off-putting for many.

That, or better guidelines should be provided, because, as this very thread shows, nobody currently agrees about what constitutes the "high" and "low" ends. Money? Experience? How much money? How much experience?

[Jim Williams]

How about a forum for people that bought expensive gear on recommendations here and then ended up putting it into the classifieds 6 months later?

It could be called the "P.T. Barnum" forum?

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Via Ferria]

Originally Posted by Sinocelt

nobody currently agrees about what constitutes the "high" and "low" ends. Money? Experience? How much money? How much experience?

Whether ithe gear in question is mass produced on the factory floor or manufactured in a workshop?

It's not ideal but it works..

[Sinocelt]

Originally Posted by Via Ferria

Whether ithe gear in question is mass produced on the factory floor or manufactured in a workshop?

It's not ideal but it works..

I fear not. To begin with, every piece of audio equipment is made by machines and human beings, so there's no clear distinction between a workshop and a factory -- you'll have your definition, I'm sure, but each company will have another, so even asking them directly won't help, even if such systematic inquiries weren't awfully impractical.

And if you want to make the time spent by a human being on a given piece of equipment the determining factor, even if it were possible to estimate that, then more than a few modded mics would be just as high end as the most expensive Neumanns.

[joeq]

If I buy an expensive piece of s**t, should that be in the low end forum? If I buy a piece for 10 cents on the dollar, should that be in the low end even if it was very expensive new?

My 224XL would usually be in the High End column, but I got it for free, so is that now low end?

If a piece of s**t gets reworked into something really great, should it be elevated to the High End column?

nobody currently agrees about what constitutes the "high" and "low" ends. Money? Experience? How much money? How much experience?

If a $150,000 console is noisier, lowered bandwidth, phasy and full of THD with limited crosstalk than a $15,000 console, which is "qualified" as high end?

if someone was discussing Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska...

BTW..as Jim pointed out..How do you knwo what is what is not appropriate for 'High-End'?

silly. Any categorization system will have exceptions. We can all sit here and dream up category-busters: Is the most expensive scribble-strip masking tape "high end" ?? What if Davie Bowie used a Behringer V-verb on one song, is that High End?

Yeah that's the problem here, all those Bruce Springsteen Nebraska posts getting unfairly moved to the general forum.

Any competent Civil Rights attorney can devise a 'test-case' post that can be used in a class action suit against the moderators of the High-End forum. In practical every day terms, however, we all know what High-End is, and more to the point, we all know what it is not.

If some odd post straddles the fence and the mods move it, boo-hoo, call the ACLU. I am sure if some other criteria were used, the "lawyers" here would find exceptions to that. If discographies were the criteria, for example, they would say "what about this guy who does great sounding mixes, but doesn't have a hit record? What about that guy who works with the Big Names but his mixes are harsh and overcompressed?"

And what about that mystery man who is really a big shot, but wants to be able to post without betraying his client's confidence? He's gone because he can't use his credits to "get in".


That the High End forum is frequently clogged with truly inappropriate threads is beyond dispute. Mostly from impatient newbies who want free advice from the 'real professionals' and feel like their question will get more exposure to those people if they put it here, never considering that they are driving those very people away.

Selfishness is killing the goose that gave the golden advice.

If people want to propose another forum where the posters are "rated" on some on some scale of "knowledge" "experience" or "credits" - propose away. Good luck with that, too.

I fail to see any reason why this proposed new forum has to be built OVER TOP of the High End forum. It's so obviously sour grapes and chip-on-the-shoulder. If it wasn't, there would be no tie-in. Why is it: "let's get rid of the High End forum and replace it with..." ???

There is nothing wrong with the HEF that a more vigorous removal of low-end threads wouldn't fix.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by joeq

That the High End forum is frequently clogged with truly inappropriate threads is beyond dispute. Mostly from impatient newbies who want free advice from the 'real professionals' and feel like their question will get more exposure to those people if they put it here, never considering that they are driving those very people away.

you need to let go of some of that anger, killer. that must be a hard way to live. I totally agree with you about your point above..too many new guys asking silly questions.

It's so obviously sour grapes and chip-on-the-shoulder. If it wasn't, there would be no tie-in. Why is it: "let's get rid of the High End forum and replace it with..." ???

no sour grapes, Joe. I just think a shake-up/better organization would be more beneficial to everyone. The vague categorizations and hacks mixed in amongst the "in the knows" (on the basis that they own the same stuff) *does* taint the quality of the output, destroys the credibility of the advice..and yeah, it is free, but cmon... there is always room for an improvement..and there is nothing wrong with a forum critique. I am not alone in my thoughts. I know that beyond any shred of doubt. I think that a forum admin would do well to listen to his "congregation"..

There is nothing wrong with the HEF that a more vigorous removal of low-end threads wouldn't fix.

that a more vigorous removal of *dumb* threads wouldnt fix.. the problem posts often have *expensive* gear as part of the scenario....

[joeq]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

you need to let go of some of that anger, killer. that must be a hard way to live.

angry? no me.

you are mistaking eloquence for passion. It's easy to write pointedly when I know I am right.

While I wish more irrelevant stuff would be moved out, I happen to like the High End forum the way it was intended. If someone has what they feel is a better idea, I don't see why that idea NEEDS to built on the smoking ruins of a forum I like.

I totally agree with you about your point above..too many new guys asking silly questions.

I believe there are no dumb questions, only dumb places to post them.

the problem posts often have *expensive* gear as part of the scenario....

Part of the scenario. You mean like: "How does my ART Tube MP compare to a DW Fearn" We all know that's not really a high end question, we don't need to have a binding legal definition of High End to move such a thread to the general forum.

If people are going to get their panties in a bunch because their thread was moved, imagine how they are going to react when they are told their lack of Merit/Credentials/Experience keeps them out of the forum altogether!

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by joeq

angry? no me.

you are mistaking eloquence for passion. It's easy to write pointedly when I know I am right.

Oh, its cool man, I have the same problem.

lack of Merit/Credentials/Experience keeps them out of the forum altogether!

yeah, but they can change that...that is less a caste system and more a "meritocracy" where everyone has the same chance...that aint the case with money

tell me this though...don't you think this would improve the SNR here? I know it would. By several orders of magnitude.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

tell me this though...don't you think this would improve the SNR here?

all you have to do to improve the SNR here, is to have the mods move the N threads and keep the S ones.

Now as to your proposed NEW "meritocracy" forum, which in no way replaces the High End forum, but is an idea for a completely new forum, the best of luck to you. While such a forum would probably have a very high SNR, it will never actually come to be. I wonder if you have thought it through.

I still don't even get how you are going to decide who has "Merit"? It's just another Caste system unless there is a fair test applied to everyone equally. I am curious to see the list of specifics. A written exam? A questionnaire? Maybe you could draw up a checklist for us to see, or maybe a preliminary list of who is probably already "in"?

Are the kind of 'Top' people you want to have in this forum really going to want to join it that bad - that they will sit for a snobby test or send in resumés?

Only the Merited Pros get to post in your forum, right? They will ask the questions and they will answer the questions. How many people will make the cut? 1000? 100? 20?

20 is good, because if you pick the right people, you can have a very high SNR. Of course that would probably yield only 1 or 2 posts a week. Not much to read, but it's All Signal!

One concern is that you KNOW there will be someone (many someones) who will think they have the Merit but didn't make the list. How will these complaints be dealt with? Are You volunteering? You would be a good choice for this job - since you wrote the test.

One more question, just out of curiosity, do you think YOU are Meritocracy material? Or will you be shut out of the forum that was your own idea?

Specifics. Seriously, it is not going to happen if it is just a vague wish for a "Meritocracy" with nothing solid behind it.

where everyone has the same chance.

You mean the same chance to someday mix a hit album and get to join the Meritocracy??

Everyone also has the "same chance" to simply make money.

[Dean Roddey]

There's little to be done about it. I've seen it happen to many fora. The more members, the broader the life experience range of the members, the more conflicts, etc... Unless the mods had the time to follow every thread closely, which they never could, and deleted posts and moved threads religiously, it'll never really go away. And, the more they do that, the more it just pisses people off, though probably not enough to make them go away, but just enough to stay here and take out their frustrations on someone else.

It would of course help a LOT if everyone was required to identify themselves, e.g. something like a $1 registration charge, which would serve as an identity check, and they couldn't use pseudonyms and such. But that'll never happen. That bird has already flown under the bridge.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

... That bird has already flown ...

Well, you can curse the darkness, or you can light the Norwegian wood.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

It would of course help a LOT if everyone was required to identify themselves, e.g. something like a $1 registration charge, which would serve as an identity check, and they couldn't use pseudonyms and such.

some of my favorite posters are the anonymous ones - people with obviously made-up names and a drawing of an alien as their avatar.

Like that joelpatterson guy.

But that'll never happen. That bird has already flown under the bridge.

that bridge wouldn't be spanning a river of spilt milk, would it?

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

It would of course help a LOT if everyone was required to identify themselves, e.g. something like a $1 registration charge, which would serve as an identity check, and they couldn't use pseudonyms and such. But that'll never happen. That bird has already flown under the bridge.

I agree.

oh well. Doesnt hurt to wish for better things..

[Sounds Great]

I think some people really need a life.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

I think some people really need a life.

says the guy who has 15,000 + posts.

just sayin'

[soulstudios]

There are older posters here who are intolerant, arrogant dickheads, and older posters who are good people and helpful.
There are newer posters here who are intolerant, arrogant dickheads, and newer posters who are humble and grateful.

Ultimately this forum appears to be about helping each other,
the 'S' in the signal to noise, IMHO, isn't people who are more experienced, or who know what they're doing, necessarily, it's the people who're actually trying to help others or genuinely be helped, rather than just doing it to bolster egos.

I'm down with moving threads around.

But if you're wanting to cull some noise, cull attitude not seniority. The two are not synonymous!
m@

[Dean Roddey]

So, what? We people who are neither new members, nor older ones don't get to get be intolerant, arrogant dickheads? I mean, what's up with that?

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by soulstudios

But if you're wanting to cull some noise, cull attitude not seniority. The two are not synonymous!
m@

for the record, I wasn't talking about tenure here, on this forum.(it means nothing, really)

I was talking about real, credited professionals (or at least guys who have been recording a long time) vs new guys who are "know it alls"

[glissando]

Originally Posted by joeq

To even argue in favor of keeping this forum on track is arrogant, elitist, snobby and unfair. Call the ACLU!

No it's not...it exists for a reason...just like the hip hop forum....it's doesn't exist for everyone to shit in it , post amatuer things and drive away highend guys...your type of thinking is that ever present ridiculous sense of entitlement that is the root of everything that is wrong.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by glissando

No it's not...it exists for a reason...just like the hip hop forum....it's doesn't exist for everyone to shit in it , post amatuer things and drive away highend guys...your type of thinking is that ever present ridiculous sense of entitlement that is the root of everything that is wrong.

man....you dont get it.

he feels the same way you do....he was saying the same thing.

[joeq]

thank you, Teddy

I would have added an internet sarcasm smilie or something, but I wrongly assumed that nobody would take "calling the ACLU" as anything BUT irony.

[soulstudios]

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

So, what? We people who are neither new members, nor older ones don't get to get be intolerant, arrogant dickheads? I mean, what's up with that?

Well, you have to work harder, is all

[kafka]

Originally Posted by Jules

I thought I heard some bumping on the perimiter fence... better go check it out

Personally, I would like to see posting privileges in the high end section limited to full-time working professionals only. That is, they'd have to have a link to their studio or business, or something, so readers can have some idea of their musical context and experience.

I realize that this excludes me. But honestly, I can get amateur advice anywhere. When I read high-end, I want to know that the person posting there knows what they're talking about in a professional (i.e. gotta pay your mortgage with it) context. I don't want to have to wade through the comments of a bunch of people who may be able to afford a small number of pieces of high-end gear, but don't have significant depth of experience behind it.

Yes, there are a small handful of threads I can contribue to in high-end. But giving up posting privileges would be a small price to pay given what I can learn. And what I can contribute, I can contribute elsewhere.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by kafka

Personally, I would like to see posting privileges in the high end section limited to full-time working professionals only. That is, they'd have to have a link to their studio or business, or something, so readers can have some idea of their musical context and experience.

I realize that this excludes me. But honestly, I can get amateur advice anywhere.

there is a flaw in your logic:

you will not be able to get any advice at all, because you will be excluded from posting in this new forum*

You have a question? tough. You can't post, remember? Unless one of the "selected" has the same question and you can search for it, you are out of luck, aren't you? And since these are the guys with the answers, how likely is it they will be asking the same questions as the newbies? The entire conversation could be taking place so far over your head as to be useless to you.

"wading through" the replies to a question is called "work". You have to get to know the posters, know who is smart and who is dumb, as well as who is experienced and not experienced. This information will need to be stored in your head rather than on a clickable link in the guy's signature. It's not that hard, but the work is not done for you.

You have to learn enough about the science and technology of audio to understand when a suggestion (from anyone) makes sense or is just magical thinking.

You also have to learn how to balance the information when expert posters with good reputations disagree with each other - as they often do.

Too bad you have to do "work" to find out what you need to know, but a "panel" of professionals spending their valuable time merely answering your questions would probably want to be paid.

You could "work" to make the money, or you could "pay" them by providing a fun environment in which they and others can shoot the breeze about their favorite expensive gear - which is the system we have now. Knowledge is dropping all the time, you just have to learn which of it is worth picking up.

These are valuable skills in any field, in the long run more valuable than any particular piece of information about the best mic to go with your Pacifica.


You should also realize that your elitist rules would exclude many top professionals who currently choose anonymity for professional reasons. It is likely they would decide not to join rather than risk offending big-name clients. I can think of two or three right off the top of my head whose loss would make any change of an existing forum not worth it.


*(I said New Forum: please stop trying to impose your snobby ideas on an existing forum that many people are quite satisfied with)