A lot of high end posts and threads seem inappropriate

[FirstLoveStudio]

Originally Posted by natpub

Agreed. I think some new folks think the High End is the best place to get trustworthy info from "the experts."

I'm a low ender myself, and 9 times outta 10, I gotta say, my best answers from the Low End forum where that expertise is focused.

There are plenty of High Enders answering questions there too folks, so don't feel you are getting a lame answer to yer questions there!

We deal with smaller budgets all the time, so the answers will probly be even more likely to solve yer problems (and, we also gotta improvise & adapt a lot of less-pricey solutions to problems where in the High End, folks are more likely to suggest you do something that is gonna be impossible for you to afford).


cheers!

This is true. If you post "I want a mic that sounds like a U87" on high end then you'll get "duh! get a U87", on the low end you'll get a load of useful mic suggestions. However, if you want to know which model/year etc of 87 to buy, well, there's only one place on earth that you can get such depth of opinion (all in mine of course).

Maybe there needs to be abit more clarity in the naming? - no idea what though.

Personally I just go for 'So Much Gear...'

[jjblair]

Teddy Ray, I'm sorry you take these matters of quality and economics so personally. The fact of the matter is some of us live in a world where we make records for a living, and quality is really important to us, because our livelihood depends on it. The thought of recording vocals on an AT4050 and a Presonus firewire box isn't even in the equation.

Sorry if you find it offensive or arrogant that professionals consider building a studio for $7,500 "low budget," but it's the truth. A lot of us come from a world where a new Studer 827 was $40,000, and an Otari MTR90 was a less desirable machine, consoles cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, and a single mic could run $7,500 alone.

But the fact of the matter is that as far a GS is concerned, "high end" means a place where the pimps can try to sell their more expensive stuff. Even if the topic is about expensive gear, the overwhelming number of people in here don't have the frame of reference to make the conversation that useful. If this were my forum, talk of Peluso mics would be sent down the road. I have yet to be in a real studio here in LA where I've seen a Peluso in the locker ... or an AT4060, or a AA mic, etc. There's an class of gear that people use when paychecks and careers are on the line. For whatever reason, some of us think of it as "high end."

Now, if you think that sounds arrogant, sorry I can't put it more delicately for you.

[Via Ferria]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

If a $40 mic is cleaned up and outperforms a mic costing 20 times more, is it qualified as "high end"?

I don't think that is possible. In any event, an $800 mic isn't exactly 'high end.' If it was possible then it could be reported in the 'Low End' forum..

This forum should be about good quality, artisan gear. Out of interest, which two microphones did you have in mind?

People seem to be too snobby/ashamed to use the Low End forum to talk about low end stuff maybe?

[mattg082]

I don't get what money has to do with it. high end gear is high end gear regardless of price.

a average joe could have a couple high end preamps and a high end converter at home and a hd rig at work worth 500,000+ with outboard he doesn't own but works on. A lot of people come here looking for the equipment they own, use and how to better make use of it and hear from pros in the community and not talk bs but just listen and learn. I don't understand what's so wrong with that. A great river pre and a distressor running on a hd system maybe something I have and interested about that no one will be talking about on the low end and I can't relate to using an mbox with a behringer mic.

I agree though with disinformation...I don't claim to be a rich mongul or know anything a lot of you seasoned pros know for that matter i'm just here to listen and learn. I've just seen some ridculous things posted here by people claiming to know everything and it just starts some kind of flame war much like this thread.

[Louis Bernstone]

None of this is about "looking down on people", but is about organising a huge and successful forum for people passionate about audio. These threads need to be moderated and kept consistent otherwise it will become less of a resource for all of us.

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

well, to some it is, JJ... and thats the sort of thing(and I don't know if you meant it that way) but I find(and I know others do).. this sort of looking down on others who have lesser amounts of money to spend really, really condescending, off=putting, and arrogant.

as someone who recently went from having all (in a manner of speaking) to nothing(in a manner of speaking), I have an interesting perspective on this.

your wealth and riches can be taken away in an instant..and if you are ever in that position, I dont think you will enjoy reading comments like

"is XXX money *really* high end"?

it is really nothing more than a audio engineer caste system. the haves vs the have nots... it is divisive...and counter-productive...

Elitism.

and really...who determines what is high end or isnt? are you the arbiter? is fletcher, henchman, theblue1?

Id personally like to see any designator that relates to "money" stripped away...because it is irrelevant.

a categorization based around experience(and more money aint always more experience.. plenty of trust fundies, born into money types) is more helpful.

terms like "high end" --- they just divide and encourage looking down at others.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by jjblair

The thought of recording vocals on an AT4050 and a Presonus firewire box isn't even in the equation.

so are you saying that people who use these things are not professional? or that these things are incapable of giving "pro" outcomes?? That people wont use them when careers are on the line?? that quality isn't important to people who use A_T mics?? I think you ought to take a look around..because it is not true. There is a whole world outside of LA...and there are a LOT of really, really amazing , award winning, critically acclaimed records being made on gear that you seem to think is beneath you..The most exciting, thought inspiring, groundbreaking music..well, it isn't coming down from the lofty heights of the ultra-wealthy.. Lets see..If I recall, George Massenburg uses A-T mics. Mr Lynn Fuston does(if I read correctly), too. Mr. Ainlay, the list goes on and on... same with Peluso. Maybe I am strange, but I am perplexed(and amused at sheer audacity) of this kind of attitude. My goodness, you are way, *way* out of touch with what happens in the real world. You do realize that there are professional studios out there that dont have any uber-fancy esoteric stuff(which you seem to think is the mark of a "real" pro, sadly..)......that churn out amazing, successful critically panned albums, right?

This thread has been very, very enlightening for me and many others. The wheat is separated from the chaff, so to speak.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Louis Bernstone

None of this is about "looking down on people", but is about organising a huge and successful forum for people passionate about audio. These threads need to be moderated and kept consistent otherwise it will become less of a resource for all of us.

yes..but what are the guidelines? is it just about price??? Or about professionalism?

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by mattg082

I've just seen some ridculous things posted here by people claiming to know everything and it just starts some kind of flame war much like this thread.

Man, im not trying to flame. Im really not, and I don't know much(compared to how much I could know)

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by joeq

For once I agree with your statement, but probably not in the way you would like.

man, you have a lot of anger inside of you. relax.

what im saying is that a Classification based on experience + credentials is **meaningful**

In the High End Forum as it stands now, anyone can opine about a U47, even if they don't own one

yes. exactly.

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by Via Ferria

I don't think that is possible. In any event, an $800 mic isn't exactly 'high end.' If it was possible then it could be reported in the 'Low End' forum..

This forum should be about good quality, artisan gear. Out of interest, which two microphones did you have in mind?

People seem to be too snobby/ashamed to use the Low End forum to talk about low end stuff maybe?

Maybe there is some embasassment involved for some folks. I don't really catagorize tools anymore. As long as they're useful, they stay around. I have no problem using a $40 Behr.. cough, cough, inger effects box with a Bricasti M7. Sometimes a tweaked up $40 mic into an expensive mic pre is just the ticket.

Many tools here are what some consider low end or mid level stuff. I have a fondness for 1970~1990 analog gear, the solid state stuff. Most of it is not so hot sounding raw, but with a little bit of this, a little bit of that, add some 2010 technology and they are top notch to me.

Sometimes if you look behind the panel, some of that good quality artisan gear may not have the insides as well done as the outsides.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[oceantracks]

Yeah and where does a question about cheap stuff that's standard in high end studios go?

Auratones, SM 57s, 7506 phones, NS10s...

I think the "High End" forum should definitely not just be about money. It should be about the intentions of the post.

Somebody posting "Know where I can find some good beats cheap" shouldn't be posting here, while someone who is looking to record a jazz trio with limited resources but seeking the most "hi fi" "open" and "transparent" sound they can get with questions about mic positions and techniques SHOULD be find this to be able to consider their post welcome here.

JMHO.

TH

[mattg082]

I think a lot of us here are very serious about it and it's not just a little hobby and when it comes to what we do and gear we do not play around. I'm the kind of person that spends money on gear before getting a nicer car than a hoopty i may have that gets me from point A to B while the g/f or wife yells at me for it. I'm sure many of you feel the same way and do this too. What I'm trying to say I guess it there is a level of devotion in the high end thread you just don't get out of the lower end forums and that's what makes this board special and different for me.

[thethrillfactor]

A change that has happened from the beginning of the High End forum until now is that in the early days of the forum a lot of the posters were professional studio owners. People who's livelihood were directly tied in to the success of their studios. People who lived like this for a long time have developed thick skins and are very upfront in their opinions and their successes. They know that not taking things personally is part of the business and in no way is someone else's opinions directly tied to their own successes. You pick and choose what you think can work and in the end its up to you to make your final decisions if its valid for you or not because the success of the business is first and foremost.

In recent years since the tide has sort of turned, its now become about people selling themselves and what they have to offer along with their wares. Since its become about people any contrarian views or opinions about anything is seen as a direct personal affront to the person who uses said gear or techniques in an opposite way. When the poster in the first place was just giving one opinion in their own situations about a specific piece of gear. Things have become too "personal" around here in a negative way. Its become more polarized around here then ever, which is funny in itself because some of the things said here would never be said if you were in the room with the person.

[AllAboutTone]

LMAO....

Originally Posted by AngeloClematide

may just rename the "Low End" department to "Desktop Soapbox Production Kids"

[CompEq]

I am not a professional, I am a project studio owner/engineer.

I see and expect a division between those who are in the "Don't know but want to learn - noob" section, the "Project Studio/Hobbyist" section and the "Professional" section. Each wants to learn from the next one up.

It's gotten easier than ever to get started in recording and it seems that everyone wants to take the fastest route with the least amount of equipment to make a hit record. Thus the flood of new posts. It's gotten out of hand and the noob posts have flooded all areas of the forum. The moderators have a massive job of policing the forums and straightening this mess out. There are those that know better and I appreciate The High End forum for that.

Unfortunately the requests to use the search and to RTFM have not been heard by all and the excitement and urgency casued by the newness of it all may blind some to those requests.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

A change that has happened from the beginning of the High End forum until now is that in the early days of the forum a lot of the posters were professional studio owners. People who's livelihood were directly tied in to the success of their studios. People who lived like this for a long time have developed thick skins and are very upfront in their opinions and their successes. They know that not taking things personally is part of the business and in no way is someone else's opinions directly tied to their own successes. You pick and choose what you think can work and in the end its up to you to make your final decisions if its valid for you or not because the success of the business is first and foremost.

In recent years since the tide has sort of turned, its now become about people selling themselves and what they have to offer along with their wares. Since its become about people any contrarian views or opinions about anything is seen as a direct personal affront to the person who uses said gear or techniques in an opposite way. When the poster in the first place was just giving one opinion in their own situations about a specific piece of gear. Things have become too "personal" around here in a negative way. Its become more polarized around here then ever, which is funny in itself because some of the things said here would never be said if you were in the room with the person.

Very keen observation . Having been on GS for 5 yrs now I have for the most part read and learned. My studio is for personal use and my living is not dependent on what's produced in it . Nonetheless I take my music quite seriously and because of the expertise available at GS this forum has been a valuable resource. But it does seem that sniping has increased.

Having retired from professional horse training among other endeavors I am reminded of a saying that applies across the board. Quoting the horse training equivalent of Clearmountain . . " Don't take the horses learning curve, personally " So if we just apply that to "Horses A**" Then shall we move along nicely

[dbbubba]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

A change that has happened from the beginning of the High End forum until now is that in the early days of the forum a lot of the posters were professional studio owners. People who's livelihood were directly tied in to the success of their studios. People who lived like this for a long time have developed thick skins and are very upfront in their opinions and their successes. They know that not taking things personally is part of the business and in no way is someone else's opinions directly tied to their own successes. You pick and choose what you think can work and in the end its up to you to make your final decisions if its valid for you or not because the success of the business is first and foremost.

In recent years since the tide has sort of turned, its now become about people selling themselves and what they have to offer along with their wares. Since its become about people any contrarian views or opinions about anything is seen as a direct personal affront to the person who uses said gear or techniques in an opposite way. When the poster in the first place was just giving one opinion in their own situations about a specific piece of gear. Things have become too "personal" around here in a negative way. Its become more polarized around here then ever, which is funny in itself because some of the things said here would never be said if you were in the room with the person.

This is a VERY good assessment of this forum.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by glissando

High end should be for folks that have a shitload of knowledge/experience and those that respect that knowledge/experience

I never took it that way, I always just saw it as a place where high end GEAR was being discussed. Period. I never cruise the internet without my Bullshit Filters on, no matter what the title of the forum is. I have always felt it was my OWN responsibility to decide whether a poster had knowledge and experience or not. I certainly do not expect any Board, forum title, moderator or Merit system to do that filtering for me.

But regardless of what it "should" be, it is true that high end gear does pull in a larger percentage of knowledgeable people. Every day brings a half dozen posts that really belong in "So Much Gear", but the posters want to hear what the High End guys have to say. Many slutz want to take advantage of their expertise, but are driving them away in the process.

There are a few guys I get a lot from. They are showing up less and less and there is way more bush league discussion.

Yes, they are showing up less and less, partly because more and more gear that they are not interested in is being discussed here. What attracts these posters is a high concentration of threads concerning gear that they care about. This concentration has not only been diluted by desultory moderation, but is now under direct attack on political grounds .

To even argue in favor of keeping this forum on track is arrogant, elitist, snobby and unfair. Call the ACLU!

[Plush]

I'm fairly sick of the new lazy posters who act non curious, won't do any reading or research and who shoot off dumb questions when they should be reading and listening. They have no manners as well.

Couple this with non pro-active moderation and you have a mess. This mess repeats itself over and over. That's what is so maddening about it.

We need more mods deleting threads and then PM'ing the posters with the reasons why they were deleted.

I bite my tongue now because I don't want to blast the newbie posters who are ruining some GS neighborhoods.

[Daedalus77]

It seems to me essentially impossible to be an elitist or an anti-elitist if one is anonymous, which most folks around here are.

[jjblair]

Teddy Ray, I'm friend with a couple of the names you mentioned, and the reason some of those guys are using some of that stuff is part of an equation you are obviously missing: It was free.

I can give you a list of reasons why Peluso and AT are not high end, and it starts with the build quality. Including them in a conversation about high end audio is tantamount to having a discussion about high end cars, and trying to introduce KIAs into the discussion.

It seems to me that you have a chip on your shoulder, and are looking for anyway to make it "us vs. them."

[Jules]

Well we rely on people reporting posts a lot - so

If you see something out of place please report it!

(by clicking on the ! Exclamation mark in a red triangle)

Thanks

Moderators are always moving threads to other forums BTW - its part of the gig..

No sweat..

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by jjblair

Teddy Ray, I'm friend with a couple of the names you mentioned, and the reason some of those guys are using some of that stuff is part of an equation you are obviously missing: It was free.

I can give you a list of reasons why Peluso and AT are not high end, and it starts with the build quality. Including them in a conversation about high end audio is tantamount to having a discussion about high end cars, and trying to introduce KIAs into the discussion.

It seems to me that you have a chip on your shoulder, and are looking for anyway to make it "us vs. them."

No chips here, JJ...really. I do get flustered from time to time by the elitist/arrogant tone of some posts, but that is a normal, human reaction. I just feel bad for the new guys that get discouraged by condescending, uppity posts..when we need more people making records...irregardless of what they make them with!

as for the mics... so the guys you know only use them because they were free?? Well, gosh...surely the guys have money to buy whatever they want..so why use them at all if they are not "professional"(as you claim)
Ok..so that counts for a couple of them.... but you know very well that some engineers use them because they ****enjoy***** them and because they ***work well***. and the build quality thing?? at least as far as A-T goes...that statement of yours about build quality..it has no basis in fact.



after this post that is it for me on this subject... because It is sort of like pissing up a rope, but for everyone of you guys that say "well, you have to have X and Y to be pro" or "such and such mics arent reached for by a pro when a career is on the line" JJ, there are people whose careers are on the line every day who use stuff lower on the snob hierarchy than the AT stuff is

"or a real pro wouldnt use that or spend only that amount of money" or other such mess.... there are hundreds of examples that run counter to that flawed premise.. (see DAPTONES thread for one..I can name hundreds, probably thousands more)

anyway.. Im checking out of this thread , but JJ, I do find your POV a bit arrogant,and somewhat out of touch for reasons too numerous to go into here, and that is ok...just know there is a whole recording industry/movement outside of the that "cultural mecca" that is LA...and these "grassroots" movements/studios/organizations,,they are putting out more and more..

in 10 years, having a big exclusive studio and unobtanium killodollar "vintage" equipment,,well it won't matter. Heck...it doesn't matter now. the playing field is evened out in many ways because there is SO MUCH great music being made outside of the Ivory Towers....

you are not what you own.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Plush

I'm fairly sick of the new lazy posters who act non curious, won't do any reading or research and who shoot off dumb questions when they should be reading and listening. They have no manners as well.

Couple this with non pro-active moderation and you have a mess. This mess repeats itself over and over. That's what is so maddening about it.

We need more mods deleting threads and then PM'ing the posters with the reasons why they were deleted.

I bite my tongue now because I don't want to blast the newbie posters who are ruining some GS neighborhoods.

Laziness is always an issue, and lord knows...i am with you on the manners, Plush. How many more which Neve is best for hairdryer posts do we need? or how do you mic a guitar cab...

[Dean Roddey]

At least you don't have morons posting threads about goats in the high end section.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

At least you don't have morons posting threads about goats in the high end section.

And plus the Sun won't explode for billions of years, so why is everybody suddenly so cranky?

[Nielsbeard]

Ahhh... The ole posting in the wrong thread, about posting in the wrong thread.

I guess thats a do as I say not as I do kind of lesson.

[Nielsbeard]

Meanwhile... I'm trying to figure out why my post about the pops in my AUDIO got moved to the Music Computers thread.

I mean...
A. I've seen a lot more lower end stuff okay for the high end forum than what I posted.

B. My initial placement would have been more helpful to me in getting an answer from people with more experience in the topic of my post.

I don't mean to come off as crass, I hope I don't. I would also like to say that I am not someone who just wondered in to bombard everyone with my problems. I know that someone with 150 or less posts doesn't get as much respect (mostly for good reason). But the reason I don't have that many posts is because I am the guy that HAS been searching through thread after thread on Gearslutz to get my answers since 2006.

Now that I've formally introduced myself...

[djanthonyw]

Every since Image Line changed Fruity Loops to FL Studio things went down hill.

[Via Ferria]

Perhaps the HIgh End forum could be moved down the list, so that it's not the first place to naturally go to and the Low End forum could be renamed to Gear or something to get rid of the negative connotations of it's current name. . I'm new here anyway. That would solve all the problems though.