A lot of high end posts and threads seem inappropriate

[drone007]

case in point:

my first thread here (a day ago) was made in the high end section. the topic was how to justify spending the money on a toft atb32 solely for the routing capabilities if i'm content with the sound coming from my allen and heath zed428.

i posted it in high end because i expected those guys to have experience tracking and mixing through those consoles (toft being upwards of $7000+). now, that could be considered a noobie question but i thought that was the best place to pose a question like that because it dealt with the value of different feature sets in various pieces of (relatively NOT low end) equipment...

[madgansound]

The 'high end' section died here many years ago in my opinion. The leaving of many heavy hitters that used to hang here petty much took care of that.... The evolution of the forum I guess...?.?.? FWIW

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by drone007

case in point:

my first thread here (a day ago) was made in the high end section. the topic was how to justify spending the money on a toft atb32 solely for the routing capabilities if i'm content with the sound coming from my allen and heath zed428.

i posted it in high end because i expected those guys to have experience tracking and mixing through those consoles (toft being upwards of $7000+). now, that could be considered a noobie question but i thought that was the best place to pose a question like that because it dealt with the value of different feature sets in various pieces of (relatively NOT low end) equipment...

you didn't do anything wrong.

[mattg082]

yeah well go blame best buy for selling mboxes...everyone is a star now! LULZ I own a digi 002 with a rosetta 200 great river, api 512c, 2 les pauls, re 20, sm7b ect. with 12 years in the grave.... is that enough to join the club or do i need to be sluttier? I won't hesitate to sell that ass and ***** it out.

[dbbubba]

For me, I had to move to this forum because the "So Much Gear..." forum is not interesting or very topical for me.
The goofy questions and static aside...
The questions are like an endless conveyor belt that repeats over and over.

Most of what I am interested in is in the "High End" forum.

That being said, there are some people here in this forum that talk without knowing as much as they pretend to know, too.

[Alex Wyler]

This thread has no useful information in it.

But if you want a great basic toolbox check out these:

API 512C
AMS NEVE 1084
Empirical Labs Distressor
Great River Harrison EQ32
Dramastic Audio Obsidian
AEA R84
Peluso 2247SE
Coles 4038
Lynx Aurora 16
Eventide Eclipse


None of these tools will give you a bad sound unless you are tone deaf.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

That being said, there are some people here in this forum that talk without knowing as much as they pretend to know, too.

Yep... and I wish to hell you'd cut it out!!

[outUVphaze]

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

Well whudda know? That was me!!!

Kinda...

Without writing a novel, at the time I was the moderator of "rock & a hard place" which is now locked. When we (meaning Jules and I) decided to try and 'reinvent' the forum and slant it's direction we kicked around the idea of bringing in other people and the direction started to shift from a more production oriented gearless forum, to one specifically for low-end consumer gear. After picking a crew, a name and sorting through my old forum, I opted out so I could concentrate on things that are far more important to me. Besides, like Covert said...I'm not a low-end guy by any stretch. Hell, the first job I had was at a 48-track analog room assisting cats like Joe Barresi.

I ran a shop with a room and iso booths that could accommodate a five or six member band tracking live off the floor, the Trident desk, JH-24 2" 24-track, Studer A80 2-track, and great mics and outboard that all worked. Plus, I had the requiste stash of spare drum heads & strings, drum keys, adapters, lounge with cable TV and interknot etc. It wasn't like the Hit Factory or Quad, but it didn't suck. The consumer oriented equipment isn't really a part of my working life. I'll use it if I encounter it and I have to but I don't buy it to use for my own, or more specifically...my clients productions.

FWIW, even though I closed the shop down a year ago when the lease expired I still own the majority of that stuff and right now everything but the 2" is getting wired into my new mix suite. What did I do in that year? More FOH for names known and once known and also I worked at Mercenary Audio for about six months before realizing that I don't want to be a gear pimp...I'd rather do what I do best...make records and mangle audio.



To me, high end is a state of mind…a way of doing things. While I hate to use the word professional…we should be in here. Its high end, the crème of the crop…it should be a little bit elitist.

Real pros don’t argue and get into name calling bitch fests and flame wars. We also know that at the heart of it…for the end result…the equipment used doesn’t really matter. It matters to us, the builders of the records because it either makes our life easy or it makes it harder to get the tones we want. But to the end user and probably 60% of our clients, it just doesn’t matter. They’re only moved by the song and the performances.

A real pro wouldn't ask basic questions that can be found in any audio 101 book. Last night I answered a post in here from a guy who just bought two Pultecs and wanted to know how to connect TRS plugs to the barrier strip, or maybe he it called a "screw terminal thingy” (or something like that). I answered the question because I don’t want to be a dick to anyone, but IMNSHO making cables and interfacing a new piece of equipment to your rig is mandatory knowledge. Sure, problems crop up with everything from time to time but we're talking about cutting & stripping a cable.

To me, it was the equivalent of saying “I just got a McLaren F1 or a Ferrari F360!!! How do I start it?” What I really wanted to say to the guy was “If you’re asking that, you shouldn’t own it”.

At the end of the, the cost of a piece of equipment is ill-relevant and highly personal, kinda like talking about how big your dick is. All that matters is how it’s being used and who’s using it. Give an experienced carpenter a minimal set of tools and he’ll build a great house. But, give an amazing set of tools to a novice and he’ll struggle along and nothing will be square, level, or solid.

Very well put

here here.... here here

[outUVphaze]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Yep... and I wish to hell you'd cut it out!!

Fletch, I swear you're going to make me run out of "Depends" before the prescribed date. thumbsup

So here is a joke that has no place in the "High End Forum"

A monk, a priest and a Rabbi are all sitting around a table having dinner.
They find themselves debating the origins of life.

The monk says; "life begins out of primordial soup. Out of a nothingness that is conscious. This essence holds the space for the incarnation of the soul"

The Irish priest says; " Wait, wait wait.... Jeezus, Mary, and Joseph you have it all wrong. Life begins when the Holy Spirit descends at that first ignition of embryonic life. The Holy Spirit transmutates the physical"

The Rabbi shakes his head....
and says; " Ahhhhhhhhhhhh neither one of you know when life begins. Do you want for me to tell you when life begins bubbie?"

"Life begins when the kids are finally out of the house, and the dog has died".

AH yes..... perspectives.

Simplicity has it's place.


Cheers,


John

[dbbubba]

Except that in this case Fletcher is arguing with me on another thread about how analog tape machines are designed without having a clue.

It is not a matter of perspective.

It is a matter of Fletcher not knowing how tape decks are designed.

[Fletcher]

It's more a matter of Danny not knowing that you can de-mag an analog tape machine if you put it in "input" status... and refusing to believe that I did it for well over 20 years before I went RADAR... and still did it when my ex-studio got an analog deck like 4 years ago.

He thinks that because he has schematics that it can't be done... and seeing that I've been doing it since the late 70's I know it can.

Hell of an impasse ain't it.... theory vs. practice and all that. Danny seems to think that it theoretically can't be done... but in practice I've been doing it for probably about as long as more than 1/2 the "members" of GS have been alive.

Some wild shit ain't it...

[joeq]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

posts like "this isnt' high end!!! - I find them to be arrogant.

it is not "arrogant" to point out that a post about a Mackie board is Not High End, because it's true.

High End is not relative to the user, only relative to other gear. Even if you are poor, a Mackie board is Not High End.

Maybe we should have everyone submit financial statements, and if you have less than a certain amount of money in the bank, your Cheap Gear questions can stay in the High End forum?

I may not be able to afford all the things discussed on the High End Forum, but that's my economic situation. I don't confuse the dilution of this forum with an increase in my personal material fortunes.

Forcing the High End forum to talk about cheaper stuff may be more democratic, but I don't come here for democracy. I come here to read about the expensive stuff.

It says right there in the subtitle of the Forum, "the expensive stuff!"

It's funny this thread is from 2005. Same as it ever was. We used to have a forum member named High End Cop. His avatar was a Darth Vader mask. All he ever did was make "this is not High End" comments in threads that richly deserved it.

He was not a moderator however, and his appropriation of a "badge" got him banned.



I miss him.

[dbbubba]

You crab pretty well Fletcher!

I am not talking about theory.
I am talking about making statements that are going to possibly or very likely damage equipment.

Maybe I've been around more than you, but I've seen it cause damage.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

You crab pretty well Fletcher!

I am not talking about theory.
I am talking about making statements that are going to possibly or very likely damage equipment.

Maybe I've been around more than you, but I've seen it cause damage.

Well I guess you must know some boneheads... because I've never damaged a machine yet. If you're careless or stupid you can damage anything, my program is definitely not for the careless or the stupid... then again I've lived in NY and Boston metro for the majority of my life... the stupid don't last too long around here, the careless get what's coming to them.

BTW, I 1000% agree with you on the whole "democratization of audio" bullshit that has crept into the "High End" forum. The "So Much Gear" & "Low End" forums were created for a reason... as was the "High End" forum which should stay "High End".

At R/E/P we have pretty firm delineations on such matters... this set used to [even back when this thread was originated it had higher standards than it does now]... wish the moderators would take a stance and keep things in their proper places!!!

Peace.

[George Necola]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

At R/E/P we have pretty firm delineations on such matters... this set used to [even back when this thread was originated it had higher standards than it does now]... wish the moderators would take a stance and keep things in their proper places!!!

Peace.

at REP you have probably 20% of the gearslutz traffic (which is in no sense meant offensive..). seems like some moderators have a life besides gearslutz.. or at least think they have..

[Fletcher]

Quality over quantity George... quality over quantity... at least on the "recording" front. The overall traffic there is higher but mainly in the SR forums.

See ya in Frankfurt!!

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by joeq

It says right in the subtitle of the Forum, "the expensive stuff"

It's funny this thread is from 2005. Same as it ever was. We used to have a forum member named High End Cop. His avatar was a Darth Vader mask. All he ever did was make "this is not High End" comments in threads that richly deserved it.

He was not a moderator however, and his appropriation of a "badge" got him banned.

what you do not realize.. he was poking fun of all the people that make those comments.. categorizing things by price, allowing questions based on whether or not said question meets some arbitary budget qualification is..patently absurd. and what good does it do? Seriously. Ask yourself what good it does anyone.

so...if someone was discussing Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska, Bon Iver's album, Sufjan's illinoise.... they, according to your "caste system" rules could not discuss those albums here...because they were made on normal, real world stuff. How silly is that? The forum needs a better categorization system. One based on Merit as an engineer. On knowledge. On credentials. As I said..there are a lot of new guys with really nice gear, and their questions often reflect their "newness" .

"forcing the high end to talk about cheaper stuff" -- man, do you realize how you sound? I dont think you do.

I guess what im having a problem with... designating "High end" a material concept.... like a said..theres a lot of "newbs" that havent a clue with "expensive" equipment. weve seen that time and time again..

the equipment is innocent. the humans behind the questions are absurd at times...

[George Necola]

there is an ignore function on gearslutz. I usually put myself on ignore. life feels better if you don't have to read your own *****

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

what you do not realize.. he was poking fun of all the people that make those comments.. categorizing things by price, allowing questions based on whether or not said question meets some arbitary budget qualification is..patently absurd. and what good does it do? Seriously. Ask yourself what good it does anyone.

so...if someone was discussing Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska, Bon Iver's album, Sufjan's illinoise.... they, according to your "caste system" rules could not discuss those albums here...because they were made on normal, real world stuff. How silly is that? The forum needs a better categorization system. One based on Merit as an engineer. On knowledge. On credentials. As I said..there are a lot of new guys with really nice gear, and their questions often reflect their "newness" .

"forcing the high end to talk about cheaper stuff" -- man, do you realize how you sound? I dont think you do.

[Teddy Ray]

Yes, George. I need to find a happy place. I get worked up and red-faced.

Sorry, man. Ignore button it is.

[pasarski]

I don't usually even write here cause I'm poor, but I like to read about expensive stuff here, or would like to. So I'm with you high end ballers!

But I don't think the price is the only thing that makes gear high end, though it usually is.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by pasarski

But I don't think the price is the only thing that makes gear high end

that is the jib of what im saying.

[teo]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

what I dont get it..

how are terms like "high end" and "low end" division beneficial? does it really matter? I mean...weve seen time and time again how amazing recordings have been made with gear that is typically pissed on by the "high end" snobs. (and how terrible sounding albums have been made with equipment that is lauded by "high end" snobs) of course weve seen plenty of instances of the opposite ...

my point is... diving the forum based on price point, some arbitrary wealth/status symbol is not helpful... I dont know how to say it really but..over the years the things(music clips) that have impressed me here...they have come from both the "high end" and "low end" forums...



Caste Systems are never a good idea.

It's not a Caste system at all! It's just a matter of different interests. If somebody posts in High End (or even So Much Gear) asking "how to get more from my Behringer pres", I'm just not interested in reading that. Not because I'm a snob, not because everybody who's using B. gear make shitty music, but because I just do not relate to that, and have no interest in reading. You don't need to have a million dollar setup to get out of the Low End, a post about a SM58 can happily live in So Much Gear (hell, it could even go in the High End!).
What it is about is keeping the noise down..this forum is already running at 7.5 ips as it is...

Some stuff I have is really high end, some stuff is more run of the mill...I don't go always posting in the high end just because I own this or that. It's called netiquette, and people should really get a grip on it before firing away in a public forum. It really wouldn't harm to stop and read for a couple of months before being able to post here.

[DarkSky Media]

Nah. It's much simpler. The "high end" is where folks are smokin' stuff.

[deepshow]

Im agree with Bubbakron.... just stay organized... all of us!!!

[RTR]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

live and let live. a thread being in the "wrong place" .. is it really a big deal?

look at everything going on around you. read the papers. watch the news.

once you do, come back and tell me that silly things like this matter..because they dont.

posts like "this isnt' high end!!! - I find them to be arrogant.

+1000, people act like you called there mama names, grow up, there are bigger things to worry about

[u b k]

The more things change...


Gregory Scott - ubk

[joeq]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

what you do not realize.. he was poking fun of all the people that make those comments.. categorizing things by price, allowing questions based on whether or not said question meets some arbitary budget qualification is..patently absurd. and what good does it do? Seriously. Ask yourself what good it does anyone.

What good it does, is it gives people a place to discuss high end gear. Which many of us would like to do without wading through questions about low end gear, or general discussions, or techniques, which are clearly very well covered elsewhere.

There are 22 open forums on Gearslutz, yet somehow only a drastic modification of this one will satisfy you.

The forum needs a better categorization system. One based on Merit as an engineer. On knowledge. On credentials. As I said..there are a lot of new guys with really nice gear, and their questions often reflect their "newness

Oh THAT sounds REAL democratic! No Caste System there!
If people are having their feelings hurt because their Behringer GEAR is not welcome, imagine how they are going to feel when they themselves don't make the cut.

And so easy to implement! Just look up each member's Merit Score in the AES Merit Book. Or have each person come in, in person, and sit for the Gearslutz Knowledge Test. Perhaps you would like to be the one who grades the tests and decides? Or maybe you could just handle the correspondence from the angry rejectees?

Sounds to me like you are the elitist! You are the one coming off like a snob. Who are you to say someone's opinion about a U47 "doesn't count" because he doesn't have any hit records in the charts? In the High End Forum as it stands now, anyone can opine about a U47, even if they don't own one, they just can't start a thread about a Behringer C2, even if they do own one.

Oh, the humanity!

I guess what im having a problem with... designating "High end" a material concept.... like a said..theres a lot of "newbs" that havent a clue with "expensive" equipment. weve seen that time and time again..

It's as good as any other classification, and the price of something is a FACT that can not be disputed, unlike, oh... "Merit" .


It seems totally fair to me to limit the scope of the forum by rating the gear, not the user of the gear. The purpose is not to affect the signal-to-noise ratio, (people are apparently quite unafraid to post opinions about gear they never have heard) - the purpose is to collect the threads about High End Gear in one place to make them easier to find.

That it does fairly well.

And what a tragedy that 3 albums have fallen through the cracks. Let's do away with the High End forum altogether because of this! It's not like there are no other places to discuss the Springsteen's Nebraska, Bon Iver, Sufjan etc. (I suggest the Mastering Forum, as those were the guys who saved those records.)

the equipment is innocent. the humans behind the questions are absurd at times

For once I agree with your statement, but probably not in the way you would like.

[mattg082]

Ok well i think this is pretty simple. High end relates to the products we own and use every day. Why would I look at a low end thread when I own none of that gear and do not plan on buying any of it. You don't have to be rich to have nice gear just patience and hard work sometimes. I get a lot of info off the high end about more advanced things with more advanced equipment because most of us have been doing this for 15+ years and have this stuff and we don't cut corners here to save 30 bucks. The guys on the low end thread are usually 1-5 years, with a maudio interface and learning things we already know or have little interest in. OK is it solved now? when you are 17 $200 is a lot when you are 25 and older that's smokes and lunch for the month.

[glissando]

There are a few guys I get a lot from. They areshowing up less and less and there is way more bushleague discussion. High end should be for folks that have a shitload of knowledge/experience and those that respect that knowledge/experience

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by Lindell

High End is not just about expensive gear! For me it is more the tone in a post. Let me show two examples:

1) "I'm gonna track drums tomorrow and wanna use a SM57 on snare and I have three preamps to choose from, DW Fearn, Neve1073 and a Telefunken V76. Which one would you choose for rock?"

2) "I'm gonna track drums tomorrow and wanna use a SM57 on snare and I have three preamps to choose from, Mackie 1604, Presonus and a Digi001. Which one would you choose for rock?"

Number one would stay in High End and number two would get moved. Do you get my point Jim?

No, to me it's about performance, not fashion, price or brand name. A fixed up Presonus preamp is good as are those others mentioned, maybe better. They are not tube based as two of those are. It would certainly test better and measure less noise than an old Neve module. That is a sound I don't like at all, transistor dirt is not flattering to me.

If a $40 mic is cleaned up and outperforms a mic costing 20 times more, is it qualified as "high end"? If a $150,000 console is noisier, lowered bandwidth, phasy and full of THD with limited crosstalk than a $15,000 console, which is "qualified" as high end? The rep? The price? The "vibe"? Or maybe the results? Or is it just a "mine is bigger than yours" comparison?

BTW, I wouldn't want to use a SM57 on snare, it's too "low end". I would listen to the drum first and try a couple of things out instead of pre selecting mics based on habits.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades